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NeoParn wrote:
I could definitely see a good argument being made that the skimmer should in-fact have it's [hull] slid 1" away from enemy models in this scenario...

I was hoping someone would make this argument rather than assuming it's true, because by RAW you should NOT do that.

BRB pg.83
If a Skimmer is forced to end its move over friendly or enemy models, move the Skimmer the minimum distance so that no models are left underneath it.

This says nothing about being moved 1" away from enemy models, only that no models should be under the skimmer.

"But you can't ever have your models within 1" of enemy models except when assaulting!" I hear you say? That is not so. Page 10 prevents you from moving to within 1" normally, but DS does allow it as their are mishap rules for just such an occurrence. In addition the skimmer rule is Advance vs the Basic restriction against moving within 1". (There are also other situations in the BRB where models are allowed to BE within 1" even when they are not locked in combat and are not compelled to move apart e.g. pg.76 but that is beside my point)

So by this reading:
The skimmer movement rule here clearly states the skimmer is moved only far enough to clear the physical model which; when Deep Striking, would leave it within 1" and force a mishap. Equally since the rule does not tell you to reduce the scatter, you MUST measure in every direction from the point you scattered to and move the shortest distance that will clear models, even if you move onto impassable terrain (since pg.83 allows skimmers to end their moves over impassable terrain) and would mishap. This does leave the door open to all sorts of shenanigans where you arrange some of your own troops into a wedge/corral and DS into it with skimmers, thereby eliminating all risk of DS mishaps, and any skimmer from any codex would be allowed to do this.

Now the OP wanted to use the Drop Pod's Internal Guidance System to argue that you SHOULD be allowed to slide your skimmer that 1" away, but THAT is an argument via RAI. Rules presented in another armies codex are not the rules as written for your units. (also IGS and the skimmer rules use different language, IGS says to "reduce the scatter" and to "avoid the obstacle.") I'm pretty sure most people will agree the RAI is that things should have mishaps if they DS and scatter on-top of things as described under the DS rules.

NeoParn wrote:
"But you can't ever have your models within 1" of enemy models except when assaulting!" I hear you say? That is not so. Page 10 prevents you from moving to within 1" normally, but DS does allow it as their are mishap rules for just such an occurrence. In addition the skimmer rule is Advance vs the Basic restriction against moving within 1".

Another person who doesn't understand what Basic vs Advanced means.. Advanced rules only override basic rules, when they explicitly do so. In this case, the rule must say something like "they can be moved within 1" of enemy models." (page 21) or "A Tank Shock is an exception to the rule that enemy models cannot be moved through."

And DS doesn't allow deploying within 1" of enemy models. Nor would it allow moving within 1" if DS was movement, what it isn't.

BRB, page 36 wrote: If any of the models in a deep striking unit cannot be deployed, because at least one model would land partially or fully off the table, in impassable terrain, on top of a friendly model, or on top of or within 1" of an enemy model, something has gone wrong.

Rule is explicit: First, the models are deployed, not moved. Second mishaps happens if they're unable to be deployed, not if the models are deployed within 1".

I still am waiting for a single non-RAI interpretation of IGS as to why they are moved an inch away. Stating that the area around a model is part of a model, which is what you have to be saying for IGS to move you an inch away, opens up further issues. If the IGS rule actually stated "to avoid a mishap" at the end instead of "to avoid the obstacle" then I would say no problem but as worded it drops it right next to the enemy model still causing a mishap. There is no faq or errata to fix this currently just the rulings of previous editions or RAI and as has been pointed out in many other threads those are not what YMDC is supposed to be basing it's discussions on. If you play me and expect me to give you a RAI pass on IGS then I expect the same here until it is clarified. Currently IGS still results in a mishap if you scatter over enemy troops via RAW. Anything else as I said is RAI. To get the one inch away from enemy models the area around them has to be considered part of the model or "obstacle", if you do that then the wording for skimmer to move them off models is similar enough to warrant the same spacing is it not?

I myself still believe that you would mishap if you had gone over enemy models and are brought down right next to them as the skimmer rule/IGS dictate. Via RAW does this work to avoid a single type of mishap, landing on your own troops?

Ending within 1" creates an obstacle - a mishap.

I can still attempt to tank shock into impassible terrain can I not? My vehicle stops but my call of twelve inches when it is nine inches away is still an attempt isn't it? As Deep Strike is under the Special Rules section does it in and of itself not trump general movement rules? It is separate and has separate rules governing choices and results. There are very few absolutes in this game. Interpretation is all we have to go on, based off of what is printed, unless you can find something somewhere that DS is not movement to oppose the shooting section stating that the unit "obviously count as having moved" I'm not sure where else I can go with this.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
But it is not the model so would be a completely different obstacle "being within one inch" which is not covered by IGS. As I posted above the only way IGS works to prevent a mishap, as wriitten, is to assume that the area around a model is part of the model.

Gravmyr wrote:

But it is not the model so would be a completely different obstacle "being within one inch" which is not covered by IGS. As I posted above the only way IGS works to prevent a mishap, as wriitten, is to assume that the area around a model is part of the model.

You would need to assume that the area 1" around an enemy model is an obstacle to a Deep Strike, not as part of the model.

Gravmyr wrote:
To get the one inch away from enemy models the area around them has to be considered part of the model or "obstacle", if you do that then the wording for skimmer to move them off models is similar enough to warrant the same spacing is it not?

No. The skimmer wording only applies to forced movement. A Deep Strike is not forced movement - it's deployment.
You're incorrect. The IGS works RAW, and the skimmer doesn't - also RAW.

How does on top of a model equate to within one inch? There is nothing in IGS that states you avoid all mishaps caused by models. They are only mentioned when the drop pod would land on them. The 1" is an obstacle yes but it is not covered by the IGS.

Luide wrote:
Another person who doesn't understand what Basic vs Advanced means.. Advanced rules only override basic rules, when they explicitly do so. In this case, the rule must say something like "they can be moved within 1" of enemy models." (page 21) or "A Tank Shock is an exception to the rule that enemy models cannot be moved through."

Ok, so are you saying that the movement rules for skimmers AREN'T advanced rules when compared to the basic movement rules that apply to all models?

The skimmer rules say to move the skimmer the minimum distance so that no models are left underneath it, and my point was that the minimum distance to do so does not include an extra 1" buffer as per the standard movement rules.

I'll give you the point about DS, I was working in the OP's internal logic: that DS is a movement, (I understand that it is not, thanks) and I didn't make that distinction clear. Also to re-iterate I don't think the skimmer rule should protect them from deep strike mishaps RAW, just in case I din't make that clear earlier.

Gravmyr wrote:
The 1" is an obstacle yes

Codex SM:
"reduce the scatter distance by the minimum required in order to avoid the obstacle"

If it's an obstacle, it gets avoided.

rigeld2 wrote:

No. The skimmer wording only applies to forced movement. A Deep Strike is not forced movement - it's deployment.
You're incorrect. The IGS works RAW, and the skimmer doesn't - also RAW.

Actually the skimmer's wording states a skimmer forced to end it's move over a model not that the movement itself is forced. No one has yet to show how the IGS in any way avoids being within one inch of a model. All anyone has done is state it's an obstacle but not in any way show that it is avoided. The only thing IGS covers is being on top of impassable terrain and models. Being within 1" is not covered any where in IGS. IGS also does not state that you avoid all mishaps just land on one of the two above objects. If you include the whole rule then you see that it is only landing on top of models and impassible terrain which triggers the move not any obstacle.

Codex SM:
Should a Drop Pod scatter on top of impassible terrain or another model then reduce.....


Per BRB pg 36:

In the Movement phase during which they arrive, deep striking units may not move any further....

Indicating DS is movement.

In that turn's Shooting phase, these units can fire (or Run) as normal, and obviously count as having moved....

Also indicating DS is movement.

There is nothing any where that indicates that DS can not be both deployment and movement.

Luide wrote:

BRB, page 36 wrote: If any of the models in a deep striking unit cannot be deployed, because at least one model would land partially or fully off the table, in impassable terrain, on top of a friendly model, or on top of or within 1" of an enemy model, something has gone wrong.

Rule is explicit: First, the models are deployed, not moved. Second mishaps happens if they're unable to be deployed, not if the models are deployed within 1".

This. The skimmer would not be deployed, because it's final position would be over (or within 1" of) a model. If the skimmer is forbidden from deploying in a place then it will not end its movement in that place.

Ah yes I see where that throws a monkey wrench in......

Any thoughts on the IGS then?

Like I said on page one of this thread, going strictly by RAW:

Should a Drop Pod scatter on top of impassable terrain or another model (friend or foe!) then reduce the scatter distance by the minimum required in order to avoid the obstacle.

If a Drop Pod scatters within 1" of an enemy model but is not "on top" of it then IGS has no effect. No one plays it that way but that's not YMDC is about.

Being within 1" of an enemy creates an obstacle, RAW. You avoid it.

I understand, but that's not EXACTLY what the rules say. It says if you land over "impassable terrain or another model" not within 1" of an enemy model, or over any obstacle whatsoever. The phrasing of "avoid the obstacle" is telling you to move that DP 1" away from an enemy model that it scatters ON TOP OF! Yes, true, absolutely. It is not saying to reduce the scatter of that DP by 0.1" if its final position is 0.9" away from an enemy model without being on top of any part of said model.
[edited for erroneous apostrophes]