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So a chaos champion with a power fist and a nob with a power klaw fight a challenge. They both strike at the same time, killing one another. Does the dead chaos champion roll on the boons table for killing an enemy character? If he does, and rolls dark apotheosis, does he, in effect, come back to life as a daemon prince?
I'm asking this because I was told by the chaos player that he could roll on the boon table on the off chance he got the boon that restored his wounds, then said he could get a daemon prince because the book says "replace model" with a daemon prince.

He is dead, so boons would not have any affect on him.

I would say he could...

pg 28 2nd paragraph, 3rd sentence: "Whenever a character with the Champion of Chaos special rule kills an enemy character you must immediatly check to see if the Dark Gods reward him."

pg 29 21-22 Spawnhood, 3rd Sentence: "The champion only counts as killed once the Chaos Spawn is removed from play, or it cannot be placed on the board"

and obviously 65-66 Dark Apotheosis would follow it too, if i were correct. Just replace the words "Chaos Spawn" with "Daemon Prince"

The wound one, result 32, would also restore his wounds if the roll on the boon table was made.

The way I see it, he's dead at the same time he kills the enemy character, so he is removed and cannot benefit from special rules, so he can't even roll on the boon table.

I would agree with Rbacus... It does say that he only counts as dead when said model is killed, but then again, isnt there something about doing at the end of the phase? By which time he would already be dead?

Agreed. :( as awesome and fluffy as it would be it definitely isn't supported by RAW but that's just my two cents!

it actually doesnt say at the end of the phase, it says immediatly

not trying to argue with anyone. just thinking about how awesome it would be. IMHO if you roll 21-22, 32, 0r 65-66, and now that i look harder, a 64 as well (extra rolls) you should be alive and kicking. possibly as a spawn. but alive. its like a 1/6 chance you get something. why not?

note: if you got a 64, then with your extra rolls it would only be a 1/36 chance cuz you reroll spawn and prince.

nickick wrote:
I would agree with Rbacus... It does say that he only counts as dead when said model is killed, but then again, isnt there something about doing at the end of the phase? By which time he would already be dead?

It says he doesn't count as dead until the Spawn is killed because otherwise the opponent would could get KPs or Slay the Warlord off him turning into a Spawn even though he is still alive. Nowhere does it say 'this stops him from dying'. The clause you have quoted only takes effect after he has turned into a Spawn, which he can't do if he is dead.

immidiately does leave some hope
but I think the problem is he has to wait until the nob is killed. A model that is killed is not merely lowered to 0 wounds he is removed from the table and thus the chaos champion would also be off the table.

They could FAQ it to let you come back from the dead, buff an otherwise sucky rule ever so slightly.

rbacus wrote:
it actually doesnt say at the end of the phase, it says immediatly

Sorry I was wrong, I didnt have the book on me, so it was a guess

i actually love all the randomness for the sake of randomness. very chaosy...

but back to the subject.. i think it could go either way. the arguement is if the ork dying, the aspiring champion dying, and the roll all happen at the same time, or if the roll happens after the death of them both. I would say the former, but hey, im starting a chaos army so i may be bias. hahaha.

I think Immediatly would happen before you actually remove his model from the table.

So you do have a chance to save your character.


I think the result where his wounds are healed to full might actually save him too. He's already been ID'd and reduced to zero wounds. Then the boon heals him to full.

I'd let you roll on the boon chart.

 Grey Templar wrote:
I think Immediatly would happen before you actually remove his model from the table.

So you do have a chance to save your character.

In order to roll a boon the Nob must be removed as a casualty, but they're removed simultaneously so by the time you get to roll the character has in fact been removed already – simultaneously happens before immediately after.

You immediately remove the Chaos model as a casualty as soon as his wounds are reduced to 0. Thus it happens at the same kind of immediacy as Champion of Chaos' boon roll.

I'd say that the boon roll happens and the boon model is placed on the table, but since it can't be placed on the table since the benefiting model is no longer on it, the boon model is removed as a casualty directly.

This definitly needs an FAQ.

 HoverBoy wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
I think Immediatly would happen before you actually remove his model from the table.

So you do have a chance to save your character.

In order to roll a boon the Nob must be removed as a casualty, but they're removed simultaneously so by the time you get to roll the character has in fact been removed already – simultaneously happens before immediately after.

I think this explains it pretty well. If the Champion is on the table, so is the Nob-they die at the same time.

Id say if its a friendly game then make the roll (for the fluffness of it), if its a tourney, then youll probably just die.










Till the faq comes out in the favor of chaos!!!!

 Mahtamori wrote:
You immediately remove the Chaos model as a casualty as soon as his wounds are reduced to 0. Thus it happens at the same kind of immediacy as Champion of Chaos' boon roll.

I'd say that the boon roll happens and the boon model is placed on the table, but since it can't be placed on the table since the benefiting model is no longer on it, the boon model is removed as a casualty directly.

Remember though, if 2 things occur at the exact same time (immediately removed as casualty, immediately roll on table) the order of those is determined by the player whose turn it is. Definitely needs an FAQ, but how cool would it be for your model to be raised from the dead, even if it is to become a spawn.

 CrashCanuck wrote:

 Mahtamori wrote:
You immediately remove the Chaos model as a casualty as soon as his wounds are reduced to 0. Thus it happens at the same kind of immediacy as Champion of Chaos' boon roll.

I'd say that the boon roll happens and the boon model is placed on the table, but since it can't be placed on the table since the benefiting model is no longer on it, the boon model is removed as a casualty directly.

Remember though, if 2 things occur at the exact same time (immediately removed as casualty, immediately roll on table) the order of those is determined by the player whose turn it is. Definitely needs an FAQ, but how cool would it be for your model to be raised from the dead, even if it is to become a spawn.

This is true, but as has already been concluded the issue is settled - both models must be removed before anything happens.

Well, no.

3 things are happening simultaniously.

The Nob is dying. The Champion is Dying. and you are rolling on the Boon chart.


If its the chaos players turn, he can decide for the Nob to die first. Then roll on the boon chart. Then resolve his Champion dying, or maybe not...

I reckon that Grey Templar is correct... The person whos turn it is decides the order... so if its the nob's turn, then he would say die... then roll, in which case the chaos model is dead. If it is the chaos's turn, then he would roll, then take to wound, and if by becoming a DP or spawn, he becomes immune to the instant death, then he would be alive... If you can follow that

This came up in the battle report in Wite Dwarf last month, and was discussed in the accompanying video. They rolled on the boon table after the champion died purely to see what he would have got if he hadn't died. If he hadn't died, he would have turned into a daemon prince. If you die, you die. Being dead and out of play overrules things somewhat

WD batreps are not a good way to see what the rules are. They often contain blatant mistakes and errors.

Okay, I have a comparing rule, the grey knight inquisitor can have a daemonblade, which can have the rule of vampire and says If an unsaved wound is inflicted the model immediately gain +1 wound to a max of 10, so if he was going at the same initiative as another model and he inflicts a wound and dies is he still alive?

I would say he loses a wound and gains a wound, but if the wound causes ID then he loses all the wounds simultaniously.

So say he had one wound left, and he failed his save so he takes a wound but at the same time inflicted one, does he die or come back to life from immediately gaining a wound

He gains and loses a wound at the same time. So he remains alive with 1 wound.

NO, the three events do NOT occur at the same time

The nob being removed as a casualty is the TRIGGER for you rolling on the table. It HAS to occur first

The champion was removed at the same time as the nob

Therefore before you roll on the table the champion is removed as a casualty. No roll

"In order to roll a boon the Nob must be removed as a casualty"

If that is true, and since both models are removed at the same time since they were reduced to 0 wounds at the same time, then you would roll on the table, though the Chaos champion is already dead so it will have no effect.

Since the trigger is removing the Nob, you must remove him before the Immediately rolling on the table, and by that time it is too late.

Except 2 things happening simultaniously results in the player whose turn it is deciding the order.


So the Chaos player decides to have the nob die first, which "immediatly" triggers the roll on the Boon table. Then the Chaos Champion will take the PF wound and die, unless after the Boon he would remain alive.