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 797th Red Tigers wrote:
Creed + Hunter-Killer Chimeras with Veterans inside= One of the best "F*ck you" moves one can conjure with Imperial Guard.

IOW pay a bunch of extra points with Creed to do what Harker can do better for fewer points?

There's also the Vendetta x 9 power move, to harass the enemy to table-flipping point, even destroy a GK Storm Raven Cheese list.

You mean the "I don't want to shoot more than three targets at a time" lose-the-game move?

Hi guys, ive been piddling about with my list yet again and am now torn between two. Heres the two lists;

Company Command Squad - 4 Plasma guns, Plasma pistol, Astropath - 150
Guardsman Marbo - 65
Veterans - 3 Plasma guns, Chimera - 170
Veterans - 3 Plasma guns, Chimera - 170
Veterans - 3 Melta guns, Chimera - 155
Veterans - 3 Melta guns, Chimera - 155
Vendetta - 130
Vendetta - 130
Basilisk - 125
Basilisk - 125
Basilisk - 125

1500

Or;

Company Command Squad - 2 Plasma guns, Autocannon, Astropath - 120
Veterans - 3 Plasma guns - 115
Veterans - 3 Plasma guns - 115

Infantry Platoon
Platoon Command Squad - 4 Flamers - 50
Platoon Infantry Squad - Melta gun, Lascannon, Commissar - 115
Platoon Infantry Squad - Melta gun, Lascannon - 80
Platoon Infantry Squad - Melta gun, Lascannon - 80

Infantry Platoon
Platoon Command Squad - 4 Flamers - 50
Platoon Infantry Squad - Melta gun, Lascannon, Commissar - 115
Platoon Infantry Squad - Melta gun, Lascannon - 80
Platoon Infantry Squad - Melta gun, Lascannon - 80

Vendetta - 130
Vendetta - 130

Aegis Defense Line - Quad gun - 100

1360

Now theres obviously 140 points spare on the foot list, so if that list is the better looking one, what should I add?

List one has FAR too much ap3 and lower. Those basilisks are unnecessary. You need a way to deal with hordes too.

List one could use a Standard in the CCS, also list one has Vets sitting around without transports. Either the Pyro PCSs go in the vendettas or the Vets. If the PCSs are, you might as well make those vets more PISs.

 Griddlelol wrote:
List one has FAR too much ap3 and lower. Those basilisks are unnecessary. You need a way to deal with hordes too.

List one could use a Standard in the CCS, also list one has Vets sitting around without transports. Either the Pyro PCSs go in the vendettas or the Vets. If the PCSs are, you might as well make those vets more PISs.

The vets are riding in the vendettas, the fireballs were going to be ran as a small, aggressive deterrant meatshield type thing. Should I drop the vets and add another platoon? My only concern then is a lack of plasma. What should I drop for the standard?

Okay, hows this?

Company Command Squad - Regimental Standard, Autocannon, Astropath - 105

Infantry Platoon
Platoon Command Squad - 4 Flamers - 50
Platoon Infantry Squad - Melta gun, Lascannon, Commissar - 115
Platoon Infantry Squad - Melta gun, Lascannon - 80

Infantry Platoon
Platoon Command Squad - 4 Flamers - 50
Platoon Infantry Squad - Melta gun, Lascannon, Commissar - 115
Platoon Infantry Squad - Melta gun, Lascannon - 80
Platoon Infantry Squad - Melta gun, Lascannon - 80

Infantry Platoon
Platoon Command Squad - 4 Flamers - 50
Platoon Infantry Squad - Melta gun, Lascannon, Commissar - 115
Platoon Infantry Squad - Melta gun, Lascannon - 80
Platoon Infantry Squad - Melta gun, Lascannon - 80

Vendetta - 130
Vendetta - 130
Vendetta - 130

Aegis Defense Line - Quad gun - 100

1490

I dropped the vets altogether, and added another platoon. The fireballs all have vendettas to ride in, and the ccs has a standard and an aegis to man.

Griddlelol wrote:Makes me chuckle that a few months ago the LC vs AC debate was heavily in favor of ACs. Now it's pretty much accepted that LCs are flat out better under every circumstance.

Reminds me of the quote: "When the Facts Change, I Change My Mind. What Do You Do, Sir?" from John Maynard Keynes.

To be fair, autocannons were ALWAYS crummy.

I never could get over the duplicity that happened over the entirety of 5th ed wherein people on the one hand insisted that "mech guard is the only competitive way to play guard" and "autocannons utterly destroy any vehicle up to and including AV12".

Like... those both can't be true at the same time.

 Ailaros wrote:

To be fair, autocannons were ALWAYS crummy.

While the argument "try it and see" is rarely worth listening to, this is an example of when it is. Shame I didn't try it earlier.

Although LCs did get better in 6th, as ACs got worse.

Oh and for the Army list posted: That's going to stuff marine armys, but it's going to struggle against anything that's not fielding small, points intensive, elite units. You really need something in there to punch holes in hordes aside from the rather unreliable PCS IMO.

 Griddlelol wrote:

 Ailaros wrote:

To be fair, autocannons were ALWAYS crummy.

While the argument "try it and see" is rarely worth listening to, this is an example of when it is. Shame I didn't try it earlier.

Although LCs did get better in 6th, as ACs got worse.

Oh and for the Army list posted: That's going to stuff marine armys, but it's going to struggle against anything that's not fielding small, points intensive, elite units. You really need something in there to punch holes in hordes aside from the rather unreliable PCS IMO.

Should I try plasmavets walking behind each platoon for screening?

 Afrodactyl wrote:


Should I try plasmavets walking behind each platoon for screening?

Not entirely sure I understand what you mean. A 5+ cover save isn't going to deter your opponent from shooting vets kitted out with plasma guns. Nor will more plasma vets help you deal with hordes.

Your list is incredibly tailored to deal with things like GK, C:SM, Nurgle CSM, DW, RW and BA. It's going to struggle against high model count lists like Orks, foot guard, SW and to some extent Necrons (although these can be very vehicle heavy now-a-days). Blast templates will give you an edge, while not limiting your power in the areas you've removed it from to add those templates.

I may be fairly biased, since I don't come across MEQ as much as everyone else seems to (<40% of the players at my LGS are MEQ), so take my advice with a pinch of salt if you're in one of those places that has MEQ coming out the wazoo.

Here's the deal with autocannons. They glance. A lot. Against the relatively standard AV12 profile, 1/2 of their results will be glances.

In 5th, those glances would mean a shaken or stunned result -- something good enough that would let you ignore the threat for one more turn. Mission accomplished, move onto the next target. In 6th, it just strips a hull point and you have to do it another 2 times to accomplish anything. And if you are lucky enough to get a penetrating result, the damage table shift means you're halfway between the 5th edition glance and a proper penetrating result, anyway.

And of course, there's the meta-shift. Rhinos got nerfed, hard. Razorbacks did a little better, but their best army, BA, isn't in great shape. Dark Eldar are significantly less common, with all that entails in the AV spectrum, and when Orks bring vehicles it's generally wagons, not trukks. Autocannons might have had some dominance in taking down fliers (no AV13 or AV14), but the fliers that are really dominant are AV12 3HP -- not the Dakkajet or Skytalon. And so lascannons are preferred there, too.

Hey folks,
After not playing 40k for a couple years, I had my first game of 6th ed a couple weeks ago and really enjoyed it. I'm still trying to get my head around all the advice on this thread. Here's what I've got painted right now and it's around 2100 points. What would you all suggest for a basic gunline IG at 1250 and 1500 points? The only stipulation is that I want to keep the Master of Ordinance because he's just good (if somewhat unpredictable) fun. The figs are not decaled or marked for certain squads, so feel free to move Heavies, specials, etc around at will.

Hints on strategy and deployment are welcome as well. I appreciate any guidance you all can offer.

* Company Command Squad (152pts)
Master of Ordnance (30pts), Medi Pack (30pts), Missile Launcher (15pts), Regimental Standard (15pts)
* Company Commander (12pts)
Bolt Pistol (2pts), Power Weapon (10pts)

* Lord Commissar (105pts)
Carapace Armour (10pts), Plasma Pistol (10pts), Power Fist (15pts)

* Ratling Squad (100pts)

* Infantry Squad (75pts)
Autocannon (10pts), Plasma Gun (15pts)
* Sergeant
Close Combat Weapon, Laspistol
* Infantry Squad (75pts)
Autocannon (10pts), Plasma Gun (15pts)
* Sergeant
Close Combat Weapon, Laspistol
* Infantry Squad (65pts)
Autocannon (10pts), Grenade Launcher (5pts)
* Sergeant
Close Combat Weapon, Laspistol
* Infantry Squad (75pts)
Autocannon (10pts), Plasma Gun (15pts)
* Sergeant
Close Combat Weapon, Laspistol
* Platoon Command Squad (67pts)
4x Flamer (20pts)
* Platoon Commander (17pts)
Bolt Pistol (2pts), Power Fist (15pts)


* Heavy Weapons Squad (105pts)
3x Lascannon (45pts)
* Infantry Squad (75pts)
Autocannon (10pts), Plasma Gun (15pts)
* Sergeant
Close Combat Weapon, Laspistol
* Infantry Squad (75pts)
Autocannon (10pts), Plasma Gun (15pts)
* Sergeant
Close Combat Weapon, Laspistol
* Infantry Squad (75pts)
Autocannon (10pts), Plasma Gun (15pts)
* Sergeant
Close Combat Weapon, Laspistol
* Platoon Command Squad (67pts)
4x Grenade Launcher (20pts)
* Platoon Commander (17pts)
Bolt Pistol (2pts), Power Fist (15pts)

* Penal Legion Squad (80pts)

* Veteran Squad (102pts)
3x Meltagun (30pts), 6x Shotgun
* Veteran Sergeant (2pts)
Bolt Pistol (2pts), Close Combat Weapon

* Scout Sentinel (40pts)
Autocannon (5pts)
* Scout Sentinel (40pts)
Autocannon (5pts)
* Scout Sentinel (40pts)
Autocannon (5pts)

* Leman Russ (170pts)
Heavy Bolter, Heavy Bolters (20pts)
* Leman Russ Demolisher (180pts)
Lascannon (15pts)

* Basilisk (125pts)
Heavy Bolter
* Basilisk (125pts)
Heavy Bolter
* Basilisk (125pts)
Heavy Bolter

 Griddlelol wrote:

 Afrodactyl wrote:


Should I try plasmavets walking behind each platoon for screening?

Not entirely sure I understand what you mean. A 5+ cover save isn't going to deter your opponent from shooting vets kitted out with plasma guns. Nor will more plasma vets help you deal with hordes.

Your list is incredibly tailored to deal with things like GK, C:SM, Nurgle CSM, DW, RW and BA. It's going to struggle against high model count lists like Orks, foot guard, SW and to some extent Necrons (although these can be very vehicle heavy now-a-days). Blast templates will give you an edge, while not limiting your power in the areas you've removed it from to add those templates.

I may be fairly biased, since I don't come across MEQ as much as everyone else seems to (<40% of the players at my LGS are MEQ), so take my advice with a pinch of salt if you're in one of those places that has MEQ coming out the wazoo.

Okay, hows this? It doesnt have as many infantry, but has more blasts.

Company Command Squad - Regimental Standard, Autocannon, Astropath - 105

Infantry Platoon
Platoon Command Squad - 4 Flamers - 50
Platoon Infantry Squad - Melta gun, Lascannon, Commissar - 115
Platoon Infantry Squad - Melta gun, Lascannon - 80
Platoon Infantry Squad - Melta gun, Lascannon - 80

Infantry Platoon
Platoon Command Squad - 4 Flamers - 50
Platoon Infantry Squad - Melta gun, Lascannon, Commissar - 115
Platoon Infantry Squad - Melta gun, Lascannon - 80
Platoon Infantry Squad - Melta gun, Lascannon - 80

Vendetta - 130
Vendetta - 130

Basilisk - 125
Basilisk - 125
Basilisk - 125

Aegis Defense Line - Quad gun - 100

1490

< Taken by the void dragon. >

Griddlelol wrote:Oh and for the Army list posted: That's going to stuff marine armys, but it's going to struggle against anything that's not fielding small, points intensive, elite units. You really need something in there to punch holes in hordes aside from the rather unreliable PCS IMO.

How about 8 infantry squads with FRF lasguns? Plus, it's not like that huge pile of melta and lascannons can't hurt low-cost units either.

If this was really such a concern, then I'd just find the shockingly few points required to give those vendettas heavy bolter sponsons.

 Ailaros wrote:

How about 8 infantry squads with FRF lasguns? Plus, it's not like that huge pile of melta and lascannons can't hurt low-cost units either.

If this was really such a concern, then I'd just find the shockingly few points required to give those vendettas heavy bolter sponsons.

I really don't like to mix the units I'm targeting. Sure, 8x7 FRFSRF lasguns would do the job, but then you're not shooting that lascannon or that meltagun at something. If the threats that the lascannons deal with are gone by that point, then yeah, the rapid firing lasguns will do a fine job (although you've probably already won if that's the case). But when your choice is shooting the big scary thing, or the masses of gribbles, it's a difficult decision to make, and something that could ultimately cost you the game.

Tl;dr: I don't like flipping a coin for my target priority.

I'm confused as to why you're telling him the basilisks aren't necessary, but then telling him he needs anti-horde? Granted, manticores might be better, but surely basilisks can handle that job too.

Also, Griddlelol, that last comment, it isn't necessarily flipping a coin for target priority, it's just having the option available. If you hide LC's in squads, then they have lots of Emperor-approved ablative armor, and can still hit what you need them to, and if a horde gets close, you can fire the LC and all the lasguns at it.

Tyranids. sure, lasguns do alright, but against orks, they maybe score one or two wounds per ten dudes.

Sure, you can pour more squads into firing at the same target, but since PIS can get spread out, I find that I never have enough concentrated anti-horde firepower. Against swarmy stuff like green tide and 'nids. Oh, and relying on lasguns to deal with massive amounts of orks is going to result in your guardsmen being swept away by the green tide.

Blasts can help, but not against a smart opponent. Against good opponent, large blasts may as well be Heavy 3, because I can never seem to get more than three models under the blast template if my opponent has spaced is models well. Futhermore, the game is often decided against horde armies within the first turns. If they get into assault, they usually have the models to perform a multi-assault and start crushing your dudes faster.

To make it even harder, with the new FAQ's, orks can go to ground under their cover bubble thingy and get back up the next turn due to the fearless rule. So now the green tide as a free 4+ cover save.

So yeah, anti-horde is a good thing to look into for a TAC list. A bolter-boat punisher or manticores may actually fill in the gap. as it seems you have more than enough firepower to handle marines and elite stuff.

Also: Valkyrie + Hellfury Missiles + Bolter Sponsons = an amazing air strike on swarms.

Griddlelol wrote:I really don't like to mix the units I'm targeting. Sure, 8x7 FRFSRF lasguns would do the job, but then you're not shooting that lascannon or that meltagun at something.

Yes you are, you're shooting them at orks. They're not wasted shots.

Furthermore, all infantry units don't need to shoot at the same targets. Those who need to shoot at boyz shoot at boyz. Those who need to shoot at heavier things shoot at heavier things. With eight whole infantry squads to play with, you've got enough from both. With a little extra kick, say from the officer squads and from heavy bolter vendettas, if your opponent brings too many of one or the other, you're still good to go due to support units.

Plus, hordes have new problems with wound allocation and the way cover saves work. Add to that how much worse assault got, and it's not like you're going to be on the receiving end of a slugga charge anyways anymore. Plus, with all that long-range weaponry combined with the small arms, you're going to be able to do a good job of concentrating your killing power on a necessarily less concentrated opponent.

I really don't forsee too many problems.

 Ailaros wrote:

I really don't forsee too many problems.

I do: Green Tide.

I feel like I've been over the green tide thing.

How many slugga tides are you going to see? Zero. Even if you do, we're talking about FRFable lasguns that now have a 30" threat range, which means you can concentrate it rather well on an opponent who, being a horde player, isn't going to have good concentration of their own. Once you're done taking casualties from the front, then your ork opponent is going to have to deal with speedbumping. A slugga green tide would be straight-up screwed against this list.

For shoota tide, once again, you're talking about guard weapons that outrange their ork counterparts. You're going to get in the first volley, and, once again talking about casualties coming from the front, you're likely getting in two before the orks have a chance to do any serious damage. If they come in closer, you're going to be able to concentrate fire with your rapid fire weapons on the defense better than he will be able to concentrate his assault weapons on the offense. You'll even be more mobile, being able to jet in a whole infantry platoon in those vendettas and drop them off at weak points of enemy objectives.

This list handles green tide just fine. Not that you're even going to see it all that often anymore.

 Ailaros wrote:


For shoota tide, once again, you're talking about guard weapons that outrange their ork counterparts. You're going to get in the first volley, and, once again talking about casualties coming from the front, you're likely getting in two before the orks have a chance to do any serious damage. If they come in closer, you're going to be able to concentrate fire with your rapid fire weapons on the defense better than he will be able to concentrate his assault weapons on the offense. You'll even be more mobile, being able to jet in a whole infantry platoon in those vendettas and drop them off at weak points of enemy objectives.

Yeah, but the first volley of lasguns doesn't do enough, and there's not exactly a lot of room to maneuver when you've got a ton of orcs taking up most of the table. It's really two massive gunlines just going at it before the charge, and if he charges, he wins. Plus, a smart ork player will throw that one unit of ork termies or kans or something in there, forcing you to remove firepower from his boyz. It seems like if you focus one group, the other will get you.

 Ailaros wrote:

Not that you're even going to see it all that often anymore.

Oh, my roomate plays it. I see it so often that I'm starting to get sick of it.

 TheCaptain wrote:
AC's are still better to folks that favor anecdotal evidence, or non-mathematical ideas like "Well, more shots are better since we're BS3"

but once you look at the math, along with the pros vs. cons, Lascannons are just the superior weapon.

Only if you ignore the maths, you mean.
My arguments never relied on them due to BS3 but rather efficiency per point cost. At carrier costs at <70 per AC, AC's are better points wise. BS is just a nonfactor in that.
The fact that both of you ignore these points and put words into peoples mouths is enough to suggest that you didn't understand where those arguments came from in the first place.

kestril wrote:Yeah, but the first volley of lasguns doesn't do enough

I don't understand how this could be so.

Casualties are removed from the front, which means that you're moving the line of closest enemy models a few inches backwards every time you fire. The only way this wouldn't be a problem ever is if your opponent was literally in close order drill, in which case, said infantry platoon falls out of a vendetta and causes hideous casualties with the flamers.

kestril wrote:there's not exactly a lot of room to maneuver when you've got a ton of orcs taking up most of the table.

Vendettas.

Seriously, though, green tide could always be handled by a guard player who actually knew how to use his lasguns. Lasguns got better in this edition, and foot hordes charging across the board got much worse. You should be fine once you learn how to move your infantry on the table to counter them - a skill that's made much, much easier now that you can pre-measure

Blaggard wrote:Only if you ignore the maths, you mean.

All your math ever showed was a slight efficiency boost for the autocannons (well, pointswise, but not timewise), and an effectiveness boost against a tiny range of targets. Meanwhile, the lascannon has a much larger range of targets it can handle effectively.

Efficiency is a poor substitute for effectiveness. Always was, and still is.

 kestril wrote:
To make it even harder, with the new FAQ's, orks can go to ground under their cover bubble thingy and get back up the next turn due to the fearless rule. So now the green tide as a free 4+ cover save.

Err, what? The Fearless USR explicitly states that you can not go to ground.

 Peregrine wrote:

 kestril wrote:
To make it even harder, with the new FAQ's, orks can go to ground under their cover bubble thingy and get back up the next turn due to the fearless rule. So now the green tide as a free 4+ cover save.

Err, what? The Fearless USR explicitly states that you can not go to ground.

I guess I'll have to point that out to him then.

Yeah lasguns got better, but they still suck. The only thing which redeems them is their mass numbers, which isn't always possible to bring to bear on the target all at once. Oh yeah, I'm a big fan of my vendetta or deepstriking flamers, but I only have one vendetta. It makes a dent, sometimes a big dent, but never enough to make a real difference.

 Ailaros wrote:


Furthermore, all infantry units don't need to shoot at the same targets. Those who need to shoot at boyz shoot at boyz. Those who need to shoot at heavier things shoot at heavier things. With eight whole infantry squads to play with, you've got enough from both.

Maybe it's paranoia talking, but in a game that uses chance to determine whether my tactics are successful, I really like to limit my potential failure. I do see that lasguns will handle most hordes, but it's at a horribly close range. For me they're the oh gak it's in my face I better shoot my lasguns at it way of killing things. Since that 30" threat range in reality won't exist if I can shoot my lascannon at something worth while.

Basically I want to have things weakened before they're in their kill range of my troops. Though yeah it's just in case which I suppose isn't a great reason.

Why is everyone going on about thinning hordes with Lasguns. Why not just shower them in Pie Plates like guard does best.

 Griddlelol wrote:

 TheCaptain wrote:


Viola. Reason and sensibility.

Makes me chuckle that a few months ago the LC vs AC debate was heavily in favor of ACs. Now it's pretty much accepted that LCs are flat out better under every circumstance.

Reminds me of the quote: "When the Facts Change, I Change My Mind. What Do You Do, Sir?" from John Maynard Keynes.

AKA the thread where MrMoustaffa realized he wasn't crazy and actually knew what he was doing for once.

I don't get many of those threads.

It is really funny how the "accepted" view has changed though. In my area, shortly after that thread got going, a lot the local IG players starting saying "Man, autocannons really aren't as awesome as they used to be." It's like everyone had been playing just long enough to come to the same conclusion.

Also

Sinji wrote:Why is everyone going on about thinning hordes with Lasguns. Why not just shower them in Pie Plates like guard does best.

This man speaks the truth.

Guardsmen are for killing tanks.

Tanks are for killing infantry.

That is how IG works best.

And I play foot guard. I tend to have 80+ lasguns in any given list. I STILL prefer to have my tanks do the infantry killing, because my guardsmen are just so much better for killing vehicles/MC's/ Hard infantry (termis, meganobs, etc.)

Well, don't get to excited. Once the "OMG LCs ARE AMAZING!!!!" hype settles down a bit people will realize that LCs and ACs have always been useful, just in different ways, and that there are reasons to take either of them.

Wait, what am I saying, this is a forum, people are just going to go straight to the next OMG AWESOME thing.

 Peregrine wrote:
Well, don't get to excited. Once the "OMG LCs ARE AMAZING!!!!" hype settles down a bit people will realize that LCs and ACs have always been useful, just in different ways, and that there are reasons to take either of them.

Wait, what am I saying, this is a forum, people are just going to go straight to the next OMG AWESOME thing.

I figure it's just more of a meta-shift, if anything. In 5th, Mech was king, so Autocannons made the most sense. Now in 6th, the vibe is either Tanks'n'Boots, or Flyers. In facing either of the two, Guard is gunna want Lascannons; 60% of the time, all the time.