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Martel732 wrote:

I still think it would be better to debate which ratio to use rather than which one is better in some kind of vacuum.

I mean, unless the question is "Which upgrade is better for squad X" rather than the common "which weapon is better" then carrier cost should still be accounted for.

And in the former of those two questions, the whole "Las costs double" argument crumples anyways, because you're discussing one heavy weapon slot. So it no longer becomes 2 Autocannons vs. 1 Lascannon, its still just Lascannon Vs. Autocannon and 10 spare points.

if thats the case then the argument should be, which is better;

3 Lascannons vs. 3 AC's and 2 plasma guns

or 1 Lascannon, vs. AC and a melta

I'm just going to go ahead and repeat myself here, because pretty much everything written since my last post falls into one of these traps.

Ailaros wrote:The whole autocannon thing always devolves to people looking at them in a vacuum against just one or two target types and then mysteriously declaring them to be better weapons over all.

If you're willing to ignore what Ap2 means and are willing to forget what a carrier cost is, and are willing to believe that a kill made on any turn is equal in quality to a kill made on any other turn, and are willing to pretend like the game consists of only two different units, then the autocannon can start to look good, but it only looks great when you can do all of that AND don't understand how math works.

Anyways...

Martel732 wrote:I still think it would be better to debate which ratio to use

Sure. The ratio is zero autocannons to infinity lascannons.

The only possible exceptions I can think of are autocannons on hydras (because you don't have access to lascannon anti-flier) if your opponents like to bring a lot of fliers or AV10 skimmers, or if you really can't find points for a better russ, an exterminator is better at nearly everything than a LRBT, but that's more of a statement about how bad LRBTs are, not about how good autocannons are.

 RegulusBlack wrote:
if thats the case then the argument should be, which is better;

3 Lascannons vs. 3 AC's and 2 plasma guns

or 1 Lascannon, vs. AC and a melta

No, it's not. The squad with the LC can still take a PG or MG, therefore they are simply ignored. You must take into account the carrier cost or it's a pointless comparison.

I guess this question just doesn't come up much in marine lists. Devastators can't have autocannons,

So by extension of this thread, should we apply the same logic to rifleman dreadnoughts for the vanilla marines?

that is correct, they can take the upgrade,

however, when dealing with a finite amount of points i think it is a legitimate comparison, if i have upgrades abound, sure lascannon "should" kill more things, however you are still "paying" for that premium.

when comparing a cost vs. cost, i think the multiple upgrade is a viable alternative to a single upgrade.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
please help me understand, because like most on these boards i would like to field the best possible army. and if that means switching to LC's i'm all for it.

i have 4 Troops (vet squads)

i can either put 4 AC's in (1 per unit) or 1 LC's in 2 units.

i have already paid for the unit, the only option is (if/what) i upgrade it to regarding HWT.

those 4 AC's will kill more dismounted troops than 2 LC's. (agree/disagree??)

Now dealing with effectiveness...... well that depends entirely on the remaining composition of your army.

< Taken by the void dragon. >

RegulusBlack wrote:lascannon "should" kill more things, however you are still "paying" for that premium.

You have to pay more for better stuff. So?

By this logic, guard players should use nothing but mortars and flamers as they're the cheapest options. It's not about how cheap something is, it's about how much it kills, and how quickly.

RegulusBlack wrote:when comparing a cost vs. cost, i think the multiple upgrade is a viable alternative to a single upgrade.

Two words - carrier cost.

RegulusBlack wrote:i can either put 4 AC's in (1 per unit) or 1 LC's in 2 units.

Trim out 20 points of fat from the rest of your list, so that you can give them all lascannons.

Show me a list where literally nothing else could get cut out, and I'd see, but my guess is that you've got wiggle room that you don't currently realise you have.

RegulusBlack wrote:Now dealing with effectiveness...... well that depends entirely on the remaining composition of your army.

What?

Guns have a certain amount of effectiveness regardless of what other guns or units you have in the rest of your army. There is nothing else you could take in your guard army that would make autocannons more effective (that wouldn't also make lascannons moreso as well).

Martel732 wrote:So by extension of this thread, should we apply the same logic to rifleman dreadnoughts for the vanilla marines?

So, riflemen are a little bit different, mostly because space marines have much more to fear against fliers than do guardsmen, and they have precious little source of skyfire. Basically, they don't have hydras, but they need them more.

That said, I'd still probably pass on them most of the time. Unless you're grey knights, in which case we're talking about psyflemen, which are a fair bit better than regular autocannons.

 RegulusBlack wrote:

i have 4 Troops (vet squads)

Well there's one problem. Heavy weapons on vet squads is entirely different to heavy weapons on stationary blobs or PISs.

i can either put 4 AC's in (1 per unit) or 1 LC's in 2 units.

Where do you get that idea from? Are you so strapped for points you can't afford 50pts? I find that hard to believe.

those 4 AC's will kill more dismounted troops than 2 LC's. (agree/disagree??)

Depends on the troops you shoot at. Also...barely. More to the point, why are you shooting them at troops? The LCs can take out tanks and transports on turn one, the ACs will have a hard time with that.

Now dealing with effectiveness...... well that depends entirely on the remaining composition of your army.

I think you're confused between effectiveness and efficiency. The efficiency of the LC over the AC is not as cut and dry as the effectiveness.

fair enough:

2000 pts.

5 vet squads all with plasma guns (15 plasma)
2 CCS w melta's (8 meltas)
3 vendetta's (9 twin linked lascannons)
2 Basilisks
Coteaz with henchmen (plasmacannon servitors x3, 2x DCA, 7 WA w/ stormbolters)
ADL w/ Lascannon
4x Chimera's (ML/HF)

i have 40 points remaining, i have tried to find an extra 40 points.....seriously tried, however i can water down plasma for LC (seems bad), and need WA's for wounds, DCA's have saved my centralized Coteaz unit from getting curbstomped by melee)

fix coteaz' squad and you'll easily have enough points. Plasma cannons and death cult assassins in the same squad?

Also, you don't need five whole vet squads of JUST plasma. Convert at least one or two over to melta and you'll have the points for lascannons.

With 3 Vendettas do you NEED either LCs or ACs in the Vet squads?

Out of curiosity, what's Coteaz doing in there? He looks like he's sort of tacked on.

Are those veterans slogging it?

CCS x2 in ven with 1 plas vet 4 vets in chimeras

Coteaz is the guy who mans the gun, with his 3 plasma cannons he's a twin linked threat that my opponet has to deal with, my meta is foot sloggers upon foot sloggers, so i have not come across a point where i was like, man i need more melta, instead it's crap i wish that was 30" ranged plasma. the CCS can bring it down to themselves for any kind of "i need this vehicle gone" treatment.

the DCA's are for when the enemy eventually closes to deal with Coteaz (most time thinking he's my Warlord)

it's worked so far against some of the best i've played, i used to run SW, but without Blob they become kinda meh.

i dont necc need HWT on my mech guard but i have 40 points, i posted this in another thread but was thinking, power axes or even plasma pistols instead but, more Dakka never hurts.

Don't you have to tell your opponent who your warlord is?

Anyway, this is for 5 HW bases again.


The Left column is "Toughness and max save allowed", middle columns are expected wounds and the right column is which is the "conclusion" for each.

I don't get this chart.

What has toughness 7 and a 6+ save? What has toughness 9 and a 2+ save?

I think this data would me more useful if it were restricted to things that actually existed in the game.

Also, once again, I've got to refer to my previous statement. In this case, you don't seem to understand what Ap2 means. Ap2 means that an autocannon is going up against a 2+ save on a dreadknight, while a lascannon is going up against a 5++ invul save. Likewise, a tervigon or mephiston is going to get an armor save against the autocannon, and is going to get NOTHING against a lascannon. Here, you're assuming that the target will use the same save against both guns.

That's a pretty big misunderstanding of how Ap works.

Cover.

To expand that point: Lets say you hit something with AP2 and it's in a ruin, it's still got a 3+ save, maybe it's got a iron halo if not in cover, it's still got it's invuln.
There's more to saves than armour, you know that.

EDIT: And I'm not even going to go into FNP.

i see where the misunderstanding is (i think)

1. is a Lascannon a better upgrade than an AC - undoubtedly
2. is a Lascannon a better upgrade than an AC & a melta unknown (probably) but based on targets
3. if my army wide has the options for X number of AC's vs. 1/2X number of LC's i think AC's are better. (but again based on targets)

anyway, i think this is like democrat vs. republican siding here, you arent going to sway either side with facts or figures

It depends what you want your other units doing.

Recently I've been rolling melta hedge with lascannons, but against my meta LC's aren't doing as much as AC's would (as per against troops rather than vehicles, the only vehicles I see are the odd forgefiend which marbo/stormtroopers take care off).

Just noticed the graph had something wrong with it. It was saying "2+ saves are easier to get past than 6+'s".

Off ta fix dat.

Fixed now. same numbers, but in the right order.

EDIT MANIA!

Infantry Squad: If you play blob guard, this is going to be your bread and butter, if you play a balance of blob and mech, you are still going to take these dudes, because they make it happen. They are paper thin, only hit half the time, and they run away if it can't be helped. But its for damn sure that they can be made a monster

They can take a heavy weapon and a special weapon. This can be combined to make many different options. A basic set up would be a Grenade Launcher or a Flamethrower, to be able to provide additional firepower to the backbone of lasgun spam. On top of that, If the squad is going to be a gun line, add in an Autocannon for front-line squad, or LasCannon/Rocket Launcher for the guys cowering in the back.
Lascannons are nice here. Autocannons are good for giving Monstrous Creatures and MEQs a hard time (your opponent can only make so many armor saves when your guns wound on 2s for the latter and the former isn't known for fantastic armor) and can put up a good fight against you average transport (especially if you can get a side or rear hit in) and if you kit out a whole HWS with them, they put out enough shots to not make a basic Guardsman's BS3 too terrible.

4chan wrote:


A basic set up would be a Grenade Launcher or a Flamethrower.

Rocket Launcher.

Welcome to Dakka, you must be new here.

Autocannons are good for giving Monstrous Creatures and MEQs a hard time

Yeah that's not happening. The AC hits once on average against MEQ. If you're relying on statistics swinging drastically in your favor then I guess the AC is the weapon to shoot at MCs with.
You might want to do a search, your points have been covered ad nauseam.

 Griddlelol wrote:

4chan wrote:


A basic set up would be a Grenade Launcher or a Flamethrower.

Rocket Launcher.

Welcome to Dakka, you must be new here.







Nice welcome to the forum, with a belittling remark such as this. Thanks for setting the tone. I will have lots of fun here for sure!

Would a mechvet list be the more competitive choice over a foot list? I tried one out at 1000 points last night (with a chaos team mate, against blood angels and necrons) and got hosed.

Hey amrogers3. Tons of advice in this thread. I'm not going to get into what I agree/disagree with, but at any rate, it's great to read these opinions, just to identify what people DO agree on. Nobody will contest the concept of redundancy, for instance. There are those fundamental principles of playing the guard.

As a new 40k player with plenty of loses under my belt, and some really interesting victories, I'll offer up my advice.

I got into this game expecting that the Guard were versatile and fun, and I was sorely disappointed to find that if I didn't build "ye olde standard" list, I was going to lose every game. I quickly got the hang of which units completely sucked, but I wanted to try everything. The "win at all cost" group I play with pretty much beat my face to the ground every game.

So here are the units that I consider fun AND powerful to play. They might actually allow you to do something different than just sit and shoot!

Storm Troopers - They re roll deepstrike scatter and take 2 special weapons. Expensive, but your purchasing a tactical advantage. I'd rather go with something clever vs something powerful. Powerful weapons can miss and they can get killed, but cleverness can actually cause your enemy to re-think their entire plan. At best, these kind of units can shut down and negate the presence of the enemy's best weapons (like an ork wagon, transports, tanks, etc).

Vanilla Leman - The Leman is a great tank, with lots of options. There is endless debate as to which are the best upgrades. What you get from a naked vanilla Leman is a long range marine killer, plain and simple. Since the guys I play with are always finding ways to pop any tank on the table at will, it's just not worth bringing 200+ points in upgrades. If they want a tank dead, consider it done, either by Storm Raven or multi-melta bikes or deepstrike - they'll make it happen, so better to have cheap effective tanks, imo.

Vendettas - I hated paying for these. Hated it. 6th edition dropped and all these cheesy fliers were the rage. Suddenly I had to by a quad gun and all this dumb stuff that I spent a long time hating. I finally got my 2 Vendettas on the board and played them properly. What could I have been thinking? These things are incredible. While every single other guard unit needs to be babied, treading so lightly around the table because a pebble might cause them to explode, the Vendettas are fearless and uncompromising. They get the job done.

Chimeras - Whether you play mechanized or not, you'll find a use for them. They get you where you want to be. Don't buy into the hype though, there are plenty of ways to beat AV12. Chimeras are a good staple of the guard, nothing more.

People say "bring this, bring that ...", I'm happy to report that the Guard DOES have some flexibility, and is capable of really getting outside the box, but I think that's a double edged sword. You need to be extra clever, if you're going to step outside the cheese factory. I know a guy who does the typical guard thing - a massive gun battery. He wins far more often than me, but regardless of whether he's won or lost, it's always the same "I should have brought more (insert weapon-type here)". His strategy is simple - shoot. I know he spends a lot of time figuring out the math behind his build, he relies exclusively on dice rolls. That alternative being - use range and table position to gain every possible advantage, thereby increasing your initial odds (which, if the lists were both optimal, would be 50% favored to win when you stepped in the room). Table position is something you CAN control, there is very little uncertainty, just move there. No matter how powerful the weapon is, it has the potential to fail, so if you're just going to show up and shoot, you're really just rolling dice. It's simply not tactical in any way.

But who am I to talk about winning? I never win, lol.

That's my take on the Imperial Guard. Good luck Guardsman!

Hey everybody!

Started 40k with IG at the beginning of 5th.
Here are a couple things I like to do;

Tactic 1.) DS Stormtroopers and grav chute CCS from a Vendetta(Astropath if you have the points):
Come in on turn 2, drop the stormtroopers and CCS within 12" of each other behind 2 vehicles that need to die
(melta OR plasma works in rear arc), point the vendetta at a 3rd vehicle, then Bring it Down! Not as good in 6th in
case that CCS has your warlord, but hopefully now your opponent is down 3 clutch vehicles!

Grav chute works more often than I thought, if you place them in a decent position, and dangerous tests aren't nearly as bad as you think.

Tactic 2.) Splitting LR Squadrons: This can get expensive, so I keep 'em small, but do whatever.
My current HS:
1X2 LRBT - hull HB
1 LR Demolisher - hull HB
1 Manticore - hull HB
Drive the LRBTs into DT(on an obj if you can manage it) until one is immobilized(hopefully this is turn 1), and enjoy the look on
your opponent's face when you tell him you now have 4 HS choices!
BLAST TEMPLATE BLAST TEMPLATE BLAST TEMPLATE D3 BLAST TEMPLATE(holy crap that would make an awesome Tshirt like the Bacon Strips one).

ALL mobile, ALL the time, remember you can move and shoot your Manticore now!

Keep it cheap, use those points you saved to buy more plasma guns or a(nother) vendetta.

I'm using this configuration because of model limitations, so there's probably a better Russ mix out there, chime in with your thoughts!

Tactic 3: No more Melta, more Plasma:
What are some of the strongest things about IG? Plasma Spam, TL LC's, and S10 Large Blast templates(I bring all 3). Between vendettas/demolishers/manticores/DS plasma stormies/(Grav chute) plasma vets, I find I no longer need melta guns, as I can get in pretty much any rear arc with Stormies/Grav Chute Vets/Vendettas(I also don't face a lot of AV14), if there's anything left after the demolisher/manticore gets done shooting.

Try it out, depending on how often you face AV14.

I recently played against a Deathwing with IG allies player who brought 15 Terminators, 10 Deathwing Knights, a 50manblob with 5 AC's who had a 4++ from Azrael, Relentless/5+FNP from Libby, a Vendetta, and a Manticore(what a).
I brought Plasma Spam, 2 Vendettas, and the HS from Tactic 2.
At the end he only had 3 Deathwing Knights, 4 guardsmen, and Azrael left(which was enough to win the game....I had him on turn 5 AND 6, lost 3rd obj on turn 6, 2nd objective on turn 7, I had 1 obj and Linebreaker, he had 1 obj, Linebreaker, Slay the warlord, and First Blood)

Do you not find with plasma spam that you kill your own units regularly?

Plasma does not work in an army where 5+ save is the norm. You end up killing yourself before achieving anything. 20pts per model with a plasma gun is an expensive waste of points. I don't care about the supposed buffs to plasma, because they only apply to armies that don't kill themselves with gets hot!

4chan wrote:
Do you not find with plasma spam that you kill your own units regularly?

Plasma does not work in an army where 5+ save is the norm. You end up killing yourself before achieving anything. 20pts per model with a plasma gun is an expensive waste of points. I don't care about the supposed buffs to plasma, because they only apply to armies that don't kill themselves with gets hot!

Well that's true if you're only taking one plasma in your whole list and relying on it to do everything.

Vet squads can take 3 per squad. If one dies, so what? I have 8 more plasma-guns. Guard die. Get used to it.

Those 9, 20-22pt plasma gunners are also highly likely to make their points back. 1 terminator and the points are more than covered. 2 MEQ and the points are going easy. 1 wound off a TMC? Awesome! What other infantry weapon gives you the ability to kill almost anything at 24" and then double tap at 12"? None. They can also threaten vehicles handily with high strength and low ap.

This is something I see with a lot of players. 1/6 gets hot! seems to be something that happens all the time for them. However 1/3 save is something that they consider to never happen, ever. Strange how the save is twice as likely to happen as the over heat yet you consider it so useless...

 RegulusBlack wrote:
i see where the misunderstanding is (i think)

1. is a Lascannon a better upgrade than an AC - undoubtedly
2. is a Lascannon a better upgrade than an AC & a melta unknown (probably) but based on targets
3. if my army wide has the options for X number of AC's vs. 1/2X number of LC's i think AC's are better. (but again based on targets)

anyway, i think this is like democrat vs. republican siding here, you arent going to sway either side with facts or figures

If people are thinking, rather than screaming themselves hoarse about their anecdotal evidence, they will be swayed. I know I was. I love my autocannon teams, but they're on the bench in favor of lascannons in every case. Even with 2 Vendettas and a a pair of Medusas, the lascannons are a better choice than the autocannons.

Then again, I've also changed minds and had my mind changed in political debates.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
As for plasmagunners dying from overheats, who cares? If you got to Rapid Fire them and didn't wipe out their target, the entire squad is going to die in the following turn to return fire or being assaulted anyway. They are Guardsmen. They die. It's what they're there for.

 Griddlelol wrote:

4chan wrote:
Do you not find with plasma spam that you kill your own units regularly?

Plasma does not work in an army where 5+ save is the norm. You end up killing yourself before achieving anything. 20pts per model with a plasma gun is an expensive waste of points. I don't care about the supposed buffs to plasma, because they only apply to armies that don't kill themselves with gets hot!

Well that's true if you're only taking one plasma in your whole list and relying on it to do everything.

Vet squads can take 3 per squad. If one dies, so what? I have 8 more plasma-guns. Guard die. Get used to it.

Those 9, 20-22pt plasma gunners are also highly likely to make their points back. 1 terminator and the points are more than covered. 2 MEQ and the points are going easy. 1 wound off a TMC? Awesome! What other infantry weapon gives you the ability to kill almost anything at 24" and then double tap at 12"? None. They can also threaten vehicles handily with high strength and low ap.

This is something I see with a lot of players. 1/6 gets hot! seems to be something that happens all the time for them. However 1/3 save is something that they consider to never happen, ever. Strange how the save is twice as likely to happen as the over heat yet you consider it so useless...

I consider it useless after I rolled 4 1's when my CCS squad rapid fired their x4 plasma guns....They all failed their saves and all died.

That was 95 points absolutely wasted. Yes, it was very unlucky, but it happens sometimes, and when it does it can completely feth up the game plan....I haven't had much more luck with veterans. Rapid firing you are gonna get 1 on average per turn getting hot. But we all know the mathhammer and averages are just that - in reality you'll have games where you roll those 2 or 3 or 4 1's and wipe out your whole squad. That's too much of a liability.

As for plasmagunners dying from overheats, who cares? If you got to Rapid Fire them and didn't wipe out their target, the entire squad is going to die in the following turn to return fire or being assaulted anyway. They are Guardsmen. They die. It's what they're there for.

Here we have the typical misunderstanding. Yes, guardsmen are there to die, but when you are upgrading them with expensive plasma guns they suddenly become more expensive than marines (20pts or 22pts for vets) and so you just can't have this same mentality.....People who spend loads of points on upgrades with guard usually suck at playing with them, with very few exceptions, because guard are not designed for this. Keep it cheap and utilise the 'we roll more dice than you' philosophy.

As I said, the plasma buffs mean jack due to get shot being such a liability. And that is a fact. I haven't seen anyone who spams plasma with guard be successful, even in friendly games, which is why you never see much plasma anymore in tournaments: People seemed to think it was a great idea because there was all this hype about plasma (I blame that Ailros guy or whatever his name is for spreading this hype) until they started trying it and frying themselves....It's too unpredictable.

4chan, did you roll each plasmagunner separately? If not you should.

As for plasma spammers, well I usually run 12+ PG in a 1850pt list and I'm rarely beaten. Then again I also spam meltaguns too, 10+ in a 1850 list.