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Yep. Once I get the funds I want to run forgefiends.

I feel like FF do well in pairs, are you planning on giving them both Autocannons or Ectoplasma or one of each?

2 with hades Autocannosn would be a LOT of dakka.

I am still worried about firign off 3 Ectoplasma cannons and rollign 3 1's to wreck the thing.

I would field mine with hades and the head mounted ecto cannon i think.

 Praxiss wrote:
I would field mine with hades and the head mounted ecto cannon i think.

^This seems like the best combo. I want the Ectoplasma for the AP2, but the Autocannons are no doubt more effective. 2 of those and a Vindicator or 2 Vindicators and one FF?

[quote
I would field mine with hades and the head mounted ecto cannon i think.

This is why I LOVE the Chaos Marines codex. Love is a strong word and I LOVE it.

Ahem

I have tried all sort of things with Chaos and have been surprised that everything seems to work pretty well. Autocannon Havocs will put a hurt on anyone still rolling Razorspam/Rhinos and such. I used one unit of them that is 7 strong with MoN, VotLW with 4ACs. Seems pretty brutal so far and is generally hard to shift from cover. I also have been using a slightly more expensive unit of Havocs with MoN, VotLW, 7 strong with 4 Lascannons. These guys, like the other ones, are hard to shift out of cover and explode vehicles left and right. I really like this unit.
I have run Obliterators with MoN this edition and they seem really good too. Still killy, tougher like they were in 4th, and generally kick butt.
I am trying a Vindicator with some other armor in my list (i usually use armor denial foot based deathguard), and I will report back.
I don't own a Forgefiend yet but plan on picking one up from the fat guy in red.

I am sure you've all noticed but there is some stiff competition at the Heavy slot and Fast slot. The reason I love this is because I see all sorts of Chaos lists out there, making sure there is a whole lot less of "Oh no, Long Fang spam!" or "Oh no, Psyfilemen Spam!" or whatever because there seems to be lots of things that are good and worth taking.

Well, my favorites are Obliterators w/ MoN and Havos w/ 4 autocannons. Three HS units are almost mandatory in each competitive CSM army.
I could imagine that the Maulerfiend will work well in a Moster mash army that puts pressure upon the enemy, with Hellbrutes and DP(s).
Vindicators are great too, thanks to the new template rule. But then you need more than one vehicle to dilute enemy fire.

 Praxiss wrote:

I would field mine with hades and the head mounted ecto cannon i think.

Seems a bit of wasted points as you won't want to target the same type units with those very different guns, and the ranges don't match up.

Forgefiends or Flakk Missile Havocs

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:
Forgefiends or Flakk Missile Havocs

Flakk Missle Havocs are way to expensive.


As for Heavy Support, I've been running Two Forgefiends with Autocannons, and one Ecto. I find the Ecto doesn't always come into play, but it is nice to have when you need it.

I also use 3 Oblits as well, who have been doing fairly well. I may drop them for some Autocannon Havocs, but I'm pretty covered in the Anti-tank department.

I am enjoying two units of oblits right now with a unit of havocs two lascannon two autocannon and two extra dudes with MON.

One cracks open the shell
the other eats the nuts inside.

Then alternate.

Thinking of swapping out the havocs for the forgefiend(cause i just got it). This will make it easier to take two rhinos for my plague marines.

I was planning on going 1 Forgefiend, 1 Vindicator and then fill the remaining slot with something else.

I havn't tried out Havocs much. I was going to go with a 5 ML units of havocs but then noticed that 2 lascannon & 2 autocannosn are the same price.....decisions!

I haven't used my Oblits since the new codex came out but they woudlseem to look pretty much as they did before (minus the Fearless but I tended to avoid combat with them anyway).

Just out of curiosity - has ANYONE managed to make a Defiler worthwhile with their new rules?

I'e used Defilers a couple of times and they do well, but they just aren't worth the points. If they were cheaper I think they would see alot more use as they really aren't bad, but at 195 points base they are the 2nd most expensive HS choice. I just think the points can be better spent else were.

2x dakka-fiends
2x torrent-drakes
2x vendetta with 1 vet squad and 1 company command squad T

sounds like a fun basis for a list. Lots of stuff that drops in and ruins thing's day. Shooting 4 or more lascannon shots also isn't usually a waste.

I wonder how you fill it in...
Maybe some plague marines and a forward scoring unit?
AV12 saturation really isn't horrible.

yeah but a fully kitted out Forgefiend is just about the same points.

i suppose the Forgefiend benefits from being designed to sit back in cover where doing that with the Defiler just seems to be waste.

My problem with defilers are that this book has expensive kinda meh scoring units and expensive awesome units and you just aren't getting enough other stuff you want if you're taking defilers.

 Lucre wrote:
My problem with defilers are that this book has expensive kinda meh scoring units and expensive awesome units and you just aren't getting enough other stuff you want if you're taking defilers.

Forgefiends aren't exactly bargains either. I mean their guns aren't bad. But you pay for them. It is certainly not a no-brainer choice. I think that is why a lot of people are attracted to the autocannon havocs. You still get the 8 shots, a little less powerful, but much, much cheaper. And for light anti-tank or anti infantry duty are every bit as good as the FF.

I saw someone complain that the flakk havocs cost too much. Aren't they around the same cost as the forgefiend fully kitted? And they have real krak missiles for anti-meq, frag for anti-horde, and flakk for anti air. Only four shots vs 8, but with much higher chance to hit the firepower isn't much less. Especially when you factor in the special ammunition vs different targets. I mean a forgefiend vs MEQ is only scoring about 1.3 wound. The krak missiles should net 2.6. Against tanks the FF comes out a little bit ahead 2.6 to 4, but its much worse against fliers or hordes. For a tournament list I think I'd rather take the flakk for all comers.

I'm a fan of plasma havocs in rhinos, got less effective than the last book with how mech got nerfed but I'm still a fan.

That and possessed Vindicators.

 VikingScott wrote:
I'm a fan of plasma havocs in rhinos, got less effective than the last book with how mech got nerfed but I'm still a fan.

That and possessed Vindicators.

Why havocs over chosen? I mean its 15 points different, but you do get 5 attacks, +1 leadership, and an extra heavy slot out of the deal.

I'm using two dark vengeance boxes as the basis for a Nurgle army with lots of conversions. I've picked up a box of obliterators to tag along with my 2 hellbrutes but I can't decide on how to kit out the hellbrutes. Seems like I should just drop them and grab a forgefiend or vindicator.

Kevlar wrote:

 Lucre wrote:
My problem with defilers are that this book has expensive kinda meh scoring units and expensive awesome units and you just aren't getting enough other stuff you want if you're taking defilers.

Forgefiends aren't exactly bargains either. I mean their guns aren't bad. But you pay for them. It is certainly not a no-brainer choice. I think that is why a lot of people are attracted to the autocannon havocs. You still get the 8 shots, a little less powerful, but much, much cheaper. And for light anti-tank or anti infantry duty are every bit as good as the FF.

I saw someone complain that the flakk havocs cost too much. Aren't they around the same cost as the forgefiend fully kitted? And they have real krak missiles for anti-meq, frag for anti-horde, and flakk for anti air. Only four shots vs 8, but with much higher chance to hit the firepower isn't much less. Especially when you factor in the special ammunition vs different targets. I mean a forgefiend vs MEQ is only scoring about 1.3 wound. The krak missiles should net 2.6. Against tanks the FF comes out a little bit ahead 2.6 to 4, but its much worse against fliers or hordes. For a tournament list I think I'd rather take the flakk for all comers.

Yeah what you say is true, and I'm only sort of a grudging fiend advocate, because I think it's the little things that make the difference in this wonky codex. Lots of nuanced choices and I like the idea of pointing out the benefits of ones that are easily neglected. The havoc outfitting choice is a great example of this, especially when it comes to flakk. People really like to dismiss it but it does have it's reasons for existing.

Anyway I'll get to how we see things a little differently.
My first thoughts about your reasoning were that krak missiles are great for denying marines their armor saves, but you have to remember why volume was king last edition, cover saves are kinda free. They may not be as good, they may be weirder now, but they are there to hide in if your opponent is afraid of krak missiles. With a 5+ save instead of a 3+ save you are killing about the same number of dudes as the 8 hades shots will against 3+. I like both guns though, lord knows everyone wants plasma guns these days and with autocannons being so cheap str-8 is looking for a home!

My second impression revolves around how little people seem to be thinking about the real glances per turn out of these guns, especially when talking about shooting them at flyers. I know it isn't easy to get those glances on flyers and there is a real take what you can get atmosphere vs them right now, but realistically most flyers and harrier units will be actively trying to shut down your silver bullet units so the little benefits don't add up. I'm sure I have this somewhere else but lets just look at the numbers.
Glances per round of shooting at flyers:
4 Flakk (1.32 vs AV11) and (0.87 vs AV12)
2 Hades (0.84 vs AV11) and (0.64 vs AV12)
4 Autocannons (0.64 vs AV11) and (0.42 vs AV12)

So looking at that you see that these guys after buying their super anti flyer ammo are really only getting .5 (being generous in some cases) more per turn than less specialized alternatives. Being able to quote a weapon as doubly as effective as another against a target is great, but not when we are talking about numbers as pitiful as this. An argument could be made for it's benefits vs AV11, but I think it's obvious that this requires more thinking.

Now before we start cost benefit analysis based on this dumb effectiveness chart alone and find ways to turn this conversation off because we'd rather have a nice talking point to sit on, we should think about a couple other things. Like durability, effectiveness vs other common targets, what else you are likely to be running (if it helps your list deal with something it's bad at // belonging to a target saturation group). It's all about nuance right? Lots of the units in this codex do very similar crap with style differences. For instance, it's easy to say that the FML Havocs outperform or keep up with the fiends in most areas for the same price, but when it comes to Flakk Havocs or LC Havocs I'd feel incredibly uncomfortable keeping them at 5 men, even with the defense line (especially if you bought it a gun). There's all sorts of risk having 5 guys with all special weapons sitting in the back field relying on 3+/4+ to keep their 225 (FML+quad gun) investment from running or being blown off the board. You start thinking about extra bodies or leadership or keeping a warpsmith with the unit and suddenly you've got a very different cost estimation going on. That isn't to say it's the worst of the choices, but it's something to think about. One great benefit of going for FML Havocs is that in many matches it gives you a very attractive unit to man the Quad gun. It's like a no brainer. You might also think about the fact that the Fiend will be rolling more often on damage charts given it will be getting penetrations more often and the fact that it's +5 means it is much less reliant on cover than standard shooting options and it's presence makes helldrakes more interesting. The stupid regeneration rule is also more relevant the more str-7 you see (fewer penetration related deaths and it takes some concentrated attention for 2 shot strength 7 guns to remove 3 av12 hp in a turn). Even FNP, the traditional big consideration when deciding to go for volume of fire vs quality shots is in most cases denied by the str-8 of the gun. When considering Autocannon Havocs I tend to just think about how they combine fire well against most targets and just allow you to take your dumb expensive HQ, flyer, ally and mediocre troop units because you have lots of points left over, and there's a certain psychological effect to having that many autocannons and some opponents might sink waaaay too many points worth of units trying to silence your 115 point dorks (though you'll also meet people who know exactly how little it takes to disrupt a few power armored ld9 dorks). Like for 115 points, 60 points less then that other big option, how many fewer glances per turn are you getting against common targets? How many more marines/ necron warriors in or our of cover will you be knocking down? Is it a fraction more? Is that important?

Obliterators are a whole 'nother can of worms and so are defilers. I just have trouble getting behind defilers because I love redundancy and I feel like it doesn't solve any of chaos's problems well enough to warrant it's price or it's slot usage. What I like in the Forgefiend is it's lots of str-8 shots, and it's reach on the table. It feels like it will consistently be doing something I'm happy about because what it's good at can be put to a lot of jobs. Str-8 has a lot of utility and it doesn't have a hard time finding it's targets. The defilers can put down pie plates and be a great big hilarious distraction that will eventually tie up and score a bunch of wounds in close combat unless someone runs away from it, sinks a lot of shooting into it or the enemy has an adequate number of krak grenades. I'm not sure how much I care about a pie plate that expensive and there is just so much potential for plasma rapid fire in this army already that expensive blasts aren't exciting (not to mention low BS pie plates are scary when most of your guys are only interesting at 12 inches or less from the enemy). The one big shot just doesn't make me feel as comfortable as lots of multipurpose dakka. And again in buying a defiler you have even less money for awesome allies, suped up HQ, mediocre troops and dragons. Templates aren't something chaos has trouble with (rhino launchers, doomsiren, balefire, brand) and it has tonnes of stuff that wound marines well at strength 7 or under, but it's what falls outside of that I'm willing to spend a few extra points to invest in. But that decision isn't really the only one out there. I'll say forgefiends are actually kinda bad. In lots of lists or environments they are just bad (no kinda about it).


Eh, I'm going on and on, but I'm trying to say it's not an easy decision. Most of the options tend to feel a little lame when you think about them, so my line of thought is get the ones you feel like are the cheapest (so you can have lots of crappy answers that can combine into something competent) or get ones that you feel like you can use for a lot of jobs or will get a lot of turns use out of. These are decisions that have a lot to do with what your list is already capable of. If you've got termicide or 3xmelta bikers already you might need less strength 8 or even 36+ range weapons around. If you want to run 2 drakes and some sort of biker deathstar you might want the cheapest long ranged guns you can find, because you don't feel like you're getting your money's worth on the options that are 50 points more and want to have room for scoring units.

lots of good info up there^^

I agree that a big thing to consider when making this choice is what the rest of your army consist of. If I'm running a footslogging list then Havocs and/or Obliterators behind an ADL is probably the best choice. On the other hand, if I have lots of armour (Rhinos, Vindicators, Helbrutes, Drakes, ect.) then FF seems the better choice to add to target saturation. The more I hear other peoples thoughts, the more I like the Hades FF. In the right kind of list it can work very well, able to damage just about anything and having a great threat range. As I said before, I think it works best with other AV12 or 13 models to help with target saturation, otherwise it will get shot up very quickly.

Predators are probably my least favorite of the HS choices just because for the same price as one with Heavy Bolter sponsons you can get a 5-man Autocannon Havoc Squad or for 5 more points you get a Vindicator.

I am goign to armour saturation at the moment....kind of.

I knwo that armour is now kind of meh but my lists at minute tend to include:

1 Rhino
1 land raider
1 helbrute
1 Vindicator

I figure if I add a Hades FF to that it will be able to sit back and take advantage of its range in most games and the S8 guns are versatiel enough to threaten just about everything i can point it at.

I'm thinking of getting the Spartan Assault tank from FW. I would run it with 2 Vindicators and 2 Hades FF along with 80 Berzerkers lead by Kharn for a 3k army. I would give the Vindicators each a Havoc Launcher so they have something to shoot the first few turns. They would go after hordes until they got in range of the Demolisher Cannon, at which point they'll blow up anything they please. The two FF can harm just about anything as well, but they're priority will be fliers. The Spartan Assault Tank has a Reaper Autocannon and 2 Quad-Cannons, which are Heavy 2 TW Lascannons. Each Quad-Cannon all but guarantees something will get blown up each turn.

Everything has something they are very good at killing, but all can harm a wide range of things so they will always be able to do some damage. Total there are 17 HP on the table and the Spartan has 14AV all the way around plus Meltas don't get the extra D6 to pen. It's a hard nut to crack and will really anchor the force down and provide good cover for my footslogging Berzerkers.

I ran obliterators for awhile but I have switched back to squads of havocs with autocannons (no flakk missiles). I supplement them with a few 'Drakes. Is it the right choice? Well, in some games yes. If you have durable enough squads - plaguebearers. mon spawn, plaguemarines, etc., you can mitigate flyer damage anyway.

@felixcat Do you give your Havocs MoN and/or VotLW or do you keep them cheap with just the 4 autocannons?

I too have been wondering about the relevance of +T on havocs.

I assume they aren't catching too much generic rapid fire until they've already had a chance to work hard for you and thats where the +T is really helpful. Exceptions being harrier units, frag missiles and stuff like multi/scatter lasers.

It's a cheap buy and I keep thinking it's a fun sink but I have to ask myself what it's doing.

I keep forgetting about predators too! Are the lascannons cheaper? I wonder how good lascannons are now.

The Autocannon/Heavy Bolter Predator is only 95 points, something I just reread now. That is very cheap!

Obliterators with Mark of Nurgle are good. T5 2+ 5++ bricks with assault cannons and other awesome goodies for 76pts each (78 with VotLW)? Hell yeah.

AC Havocs are dirt cheap fire support for nuking medium armour, but they won't be able to scratch AV14, so you'll need something bigger (Vindicators, Oblits, etc.) to take them out. You'll need some synergy between your firepower if you want to get the most bang for your buck.

Vindicators are good. Here's how I run mine: Siege Shield, Combi-bolter, Daemonic Possession = 150pts. The Combi bolter is simply to give me an effective 4+ save against armament destroyed results. Eh, it's 5pts, I think it's worth it.

I run all 3 in my lists, gives me all the BOOM! I need.

Maulerfiends might be worth it depending on how you use them. 12" movement ignores terrain will get close fast, especially if you run in the movement phase. Turn 2 assault can be easily attained with good placement. However, if you charge straight up the middle, it's gonna die fast.

Forgefiends... I dunno. 175 is pretty steep for 8 BS3 shots. You might need a Warpsmith to feed him Scooby snacks when he stubs his toe.

Defilers went through the roof points wise, I think they might have priced them out of being viable. Shame, I did like my giant mechanical crabs.

@felixcat Do you give your Havocs MoN and/or VotLW or do you keep them cheap with just the 4 autocannons?

I give them VotLW - it's cheap enough.

Fast Attack: 2x 1 Heldrake, Hades Autocannon
Heavy Support: 2x 5 Chaos Havocs, 4 Autocannons; VotLW

This is my core AA/AT ... I do use a daemon detachment though ... blue scribes w/ flamers and screamers. So my opponent has other worries. I also have my mini deathstar of chaos lord and spawn. They take care of a lot of AT as well.