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I'm curious, whats your go-to chaos heavy support? Right now I'm hovering between obliterators/havocs with quad autocannon. Buuuut,l I also have a vindicator which I believe with daemonic possession would synergise really well with my primarily nurgle force (short range fire power) and a predator with autocannon/hb sides just to mix things up even more, which is just a good all rounder.

So... do any of the more experienced Chaos players have something to say? I did check the tactics articles but I think they are out of date :(.

dakkapreds with gargoyles. pew pew!

Unlike the last codex where it was basically all obliterators, all of the time, the heavy support now is fairly balanced.

I think the closest thing to a standard choice is the 4x autocannon havocs because of how cheap they are but predators are cheaper now, possessed vindicators still work, maulerfiends work in high speed high pressure armies, forge fiends are solid alternatives to havocs. We have a lot of choices now.

Well it can depend heavily on what else you plan on throwing into the field.

The chaos book is full of nuanced similar choices. It means it sort of relies on subtle differences and synergy with the rest of your list to make the decisions between the like options.

Havocs with autocannons and las cannon sponson predators. all the same points cheap and do their job well, stick them all behind an aegis with the havoc champ on the quad gun and you have a solid gun line.

Ok. Is there any way to aquire autocannons besides buying 4 boxes of havocs?

Sure.

1) Take all those Heavy Bolters that you've acquired from CSM/Havoc boxes.
2) Chop off the barrel and put a piece of tubing on the end (from Reapers usually, which are in Terminator and Defiler kits).
3) Put a Dragon head (from the Vehicle kits) on the end of the barrel.

Google search "Havoc Autocannon Conversion" to see pictures, and other alternative bits that are used.

I think a big question for Chaos heavy choices is, "do I plan on killing flyers?".
If yes, you need to start looking at flakk havocs and go from there.
If no, I would look at the wide variety of blast and ordnance options to counter the growing trend of footslogging armies.

Sidguard wrote:
Ok. Is there any way to aquire autocannons besides buying 4 boxes of havocs?

better in GD or PM but here goes
from Heavy Bolters

also a heavy bolter in here

Ork Big Shootaz



It really couldnt be easier

 minigun762 wrote:
If yes, you need to start looking at flakk havocs and go from there.
If no, I would look at the wide variety of blast and ordnance options to counter the growing trend of footslogging armies.

Why do you have to look a Flakk to go after flyers? 2 Autocannon squads with an ADL is cheaper than 2 Flakk squads, more effective against most enemies, and still a pretty good shot against most flyers. For those pesky Storm Raven you use your Guard allies, because Flakk is not good against them either.

Similarly, why would you use blast and ordinance to counter horde and footsloggers? That's what Heldrakes are for.

In other words, Autocannon Havocs evey time.

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:

 minigun762 wrote:
If yes, you need to start looking at flakk havocs and go from there.
If no, I would look at the wide variety of blast and ordnance options to counter the growing trend of footslogging armies.

Why do you have to look a Flakk to go after flyers? 2 Autocannon squads with an ADL is cheaper than 2 Flakk squads, more effective against most enemies, and still a pretty good shot against most flyers. For those pesky Storm Raven you use your Guard allies, because Flakk is not good against them either.

Similarly, why would you use blast and ordinance to counter horde and footsloggers? That's what Heldrakes are for.

In other words, Autocannon Havocs evey time.

I would consider flakk vs autocannon for havocs because 4 flakk missiles are twice as effective as 4 autocannons against flyers, while being, at most, 50% more expensive.

ADL is a great buy, but its not so expensive that you couldn't run it with flakk havocs if your concern was countering enemy flyers.

Ordnance & blast weapons can start firing from turn 1, most can punch through terminator armor and can insta-kill T4 and T5 models (depending on type). Don't misunderstand me, baleflamers on the helchicken are powerful but they aren't perfect.

Autocannon havocs are a good unit that is a cheap buy, but they aren't the only thing to consider for Chaos heavy options.

I use havocs with missile launchers and flakk all the time. Nice all around defense.

Anyone using vindicators? I was thinking of getting a pair but I dont want to spend the money if they aren't worth it. S10 AP2 Large Blast Ordnance seems great to me, the only down side I see is their 24' range. 130pts a piece isn't bad either (I'm including the siege shield upgrade for the auto-pass on dangerous terrain test). They can't hurt fliers though so I will need something else for that. I was thinking a Havoc Squad with Autocannons or Missile Launchers w/ Flakk Missiles beind a ADL, Champion shooting the Quad-gun.

Being an IW player i like big guns.

I am still working on my list but the Heavy Support i am working towards is

2 Vindicators - 24" is usually adequate for most games. I'm tempted to give them gargoyles so anything that survives the blast is set on fire.
1 Forgefiend (2 Hades Autocannons)

Strangely i've not been inclined to use my Obliterators yet since the codex came out.

I have tried the Defiler in a couple of games and REALLY wanted it to be as good as it looked on paper and justify it's points increase. It's not and it doesn't (in my experience). Despite the 4 HP and the 5++ it still gets popped in turn 1/2 so never gets to take advatage of its high number of attacks.

 minigun762 wrote:

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:

 minigun762 wrote:
If yes, you need to start looking at flakk havocs and go from there.
If no, I would look at the wide variety of blast and ordnance options to counter the growing trend of footslogging armies.

Why do you have to look a Flakk to go after flyers? 2 Autocannon squads with an ADL is cheaper than 2 Flakk squads, more effective against most enemies, and still a pretty good shot against most flyers. For those pesky Storm Raven you use your Guard allies, because Flakk is not good against them either.

Similarly, why would you use blast and ordinance to counter horde and footsloggers? That's what Heldrakes are for.

In other words, Autocannon Havocs evey time.

I would consider flakk vs autocannon for havocs because 4 flakk missiles are twice as effective as 4 autocannons against flyers, while being, at most, 50% more expensive.

ADL is a great buy, but its not so expensive that you couldn't run it with flakk havocs if your concern was countering enemy flyers.

Ordnance & blast weapons can start firing from turn 1, most can punch through terminator armor and can insta-kill T4 and T5 models (depending on type). Don't misunderstand me, baleflamers on the helchicken are powerful but they aren't perfect.

Autocannon havocs are a good unit that is a cheap buy, but they aren't the only thing to consider for Chaos heavy options.

4 lascannon havocs arent a terrible buy either. They cost 20 points less than flakk havocs and while they are not good at anti flyer they are substantially better than missiles or autocannons at killing tanks(AV12-14) Will have to look at it but flakk and autocannons are str 7. VS just the AV12 fliers(Stormravens, Vendettas, Hellturkeys) they dont perform so well. Would lascannons hitting 25% of the time by comparison be worth it as they have a much higher chance of damage and destroy?

 minigun762 wrote:

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:

 minigun762 wrote:
If yes, you need to start looking at flakk havocs and go from there.
If no, I would look at the wide variety of blast and ordnance options to counter the growing trend of footslogging armies.

Why do you have to look a Flakk to go after flyers? 2 Autocannon squads with an ADL is cheaper than 2 Flakk squads, more effective against most enemies, and still a pretty good shot against most flyers. For those pesky Storm Raven you use your Guard allies, because Flakk is not good against them either.

Similarly, why would you use blast and ordinance to counter horde and footsloggers? That's what Heldrakes are for.

In other words, Autocannon Havocs evey time.

I would consider flakk vs autocannon for havocs because 4 flakk missiles are twice as effective as 4 autocannons against flyers, while being, at most, 50% more expensive.

While Flakk gets twice as many hits against flyers in a vacuum, the upgrade is also 2 and half times more expensive, and isn't as good against almost everything else, while still not being very good against AV12 flyers. This is supported in theory, and I've seen in action a few times, and it failed miserably. I've watched my mate play at least 4 games with them, and not once have they taken down a flyer. People have to remember having the word 'Skyfire' tacked onto something doesn't automatically make it good at that job.

I've tried Skyfire Havocs once in an apoc game and they were underwhelming.

Had more luck with higher rate of fire weaposn hitting on 6's than low rate of fire missiles hitting on 3's.

I'm not arguing that autocannons are bad. I'm only saying that the math supports the idea that flakk missiles are better at killing flyers.
As for price difference, I view it in terms of overall squads. 5 AC havocs and VotLW is 120 points. 5 flakk havocs with VotLW is 180. 60 point difference to double your AA firepower in the squad. Whether you think it's worth it however is dependent on the rest of your army as well as what threat level you assign flyers.


Exergy: I really like lascannon havocs. Cheap price and AP2 matters more these days. They can work for AA if you're going for the deadly penetrating hit instead of stripping hull points. Against something like the Chaos flyer, that might be wise.

 minigun762 wrote:

Exergy: I really like lascannon havocs. Cheap price and AP2 matters more these days. They can work for AA if you're going for the deadly penetrating hit instead of stripping hull points. Against something like the Chaos flyer, that might be wise.

Yeah at a certain point you are getting twice the damage results(glance and pens) of the autocannons and much higher chance of actually blowing it up. for 40 points more, it isnt so bad.
AV12 you have twice the chance per shot, so same chance of damage but much higher chance to blow it up.
AV13 you have three times the chance per shot, infinitely better chance to blow it up
AV14 you have infinitely better chance at everything.

And don't forget punching through armor saves and the potential for instant death kills. Lascannons are back in style.

Despite one option being waaaaay better than the other at flier killing, it doesn't mean that either is particularly effective against the fliers you tend to see fielded.

175 points a pretty big investment when you are thinking about how few hull points it is stripping against the thing you've gone out of the way to buy it for (generally something like 1 per turn against av 11-12 flyers). It just seems funny to me how many people are going out of their way to pay so many extra points to be be able to strip an extra .5 hull points from a flyer per unit. I guess some people just really like krak missiles too. I can't really argue with that.

Chaos tends to really need to combine fire to take down flyers because none of it's answers are that great. The dragon helps with this, and so do the defense lines, but a lot of your interesting units are made for rapid fire ranges or assaults and those don't really help you here.

People don't seem to think much about the forge fiend. It sorta has the ork benefit when shooting up that it's doesn't feel like as much of a waste because of it's crappy BS and high number of shots anyway, and that strength 8 feels really good when shooting at av 11/12. It's still not a real answer, but it's got a lot of targets and it adds saturation to rhinos and drakes you are playing.

I love durable units with lascannons too. It's too bad about the obliterator morale hit. That is just so lame. Try to make any havoc squad you are buying 20-25 point weapons for has a couple filler bodies and doesn't run off the board immediately.

another neat idea is infiltrating obliterators with huron or getting some of them to outflank with a slaanesh steed lord or sorc. Chaos is in dire need of reach shooting but the obliterators feel expensive points wise when they aren't making use of some of their bad ass generalist options.

Missile havocs aren't just about the flakk. Krak missiles have always been better than the autocannons at killing AV13-14. Its nice to be able to ID toughness 4. AP3 is much more useful against space marine armies if you have to shoot troops. And you will get a lot more wounds on bunched up units with frag than you will autocannons.

So that 60 points is getting you a lot more than an extra glance on a flyer.

I see vindicators making a big comeback too. Not because they got any better really. Just because most other competitive things, oblits and defiler, got worse.

A lot of people are changing to footslogging list lately, or so I seems in my area, and that why I see Vindicators as a good choice. Anything on foot is going to get blown to bits and most vehicles will get a pen hit on them too. Does Possession seem worth it on them? They need to be able to keep moving to get in to range, but at 20pts I'm not sure. Maybe Extra Armour for 15pts?

TasadarTheMadBear wrote:
A lot of people are changing to footslogging list lately, or so I seems in my area, and that why I see Vindicators as a good choice. Anything on foot is going to get blown to bits and most vehicles will get a pen hit on them too. Does Possession seem worth it on them? They need to be able to keep moving to get in to range, but at 20pts I'm not sure. Maybe Extra Armour for 15pts?

I think I'd just keep them cheap and run two of them. Keep them together and run a rhino on the flanks for cover. Get them to midfield and let the fireworks begin.

I'd always take possession on Vindicators, because you can't snap fire ordnance weapons. I'd also take a second weapon to help protect the main gun.

So how about 2 Vindicators w/ Havoc Launcher and Siege Shield (142pts each) and a Hades Autocannon Forgefiend? Throw in a couple of double-plasma CSM squads in rhinos w/ Havoc Launchers as well. You would get deadlier as you close in. You would need a fast unit to keep the enemy from just staying out of range of your Demolisher Cannons, a Heldrake or Raptor squad maybe?

The more I play the more i think that Nurgle oblits are necessary in a number between 6 and 9 exactly like in the previous codex!
they are the only heavy support that can absorb GK and necron Firepower and now they can use one of the best fireweapon of the game the Assault Cannon!

The main problem with flakk havoks is that if your opponent brings fliers and wants them to survive, they will target the havocs first to get rid of them. If you bring autocannon havocs, they can fulfill lots of battlefield roles and not draw as much aggro from the fliers.

All the points you spend on autocannons can be used each turn, whereas the points you spend on the flakk upgrade will only be useful against the fliers and for drawing that extra aggro. This might not be the case of they also had interceptor, but they don't.

You still have the other missile options with flakk, so they will be able to target something. I think missiles have a wider array of optimal targets than autocannons anyway. Of course you do pay extra for that.

For serious AA coverage, I think players need to start with the ADL and quad gun. I don't think anything can match it for efficiency vs cost.

ADL, Quad Gun, Autocannon Havocks. That's a reasonable AA unit that can also wreck rhinos and chew into troops and MC's.