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Can unions be bad? Yes.

Are unions still needed? Yes.

 Testify wrote:
How can you need 4 jobs? How many hours were you working?

mainly a bunch of side jobs to keep me busy.

School full time...

Projectionist at local theater...

Helped friend in his lawn business...

Delivered pizza...

On top of that, did what we called "Desk Clerk" at my dorm 5 nights a week, where I made sure guest signed. (that paid for my rm/bed).

Worked my tail off... I think that's why I got my first IT job (duing y2k as my boss then really needed someone to haul ass)







Automatically Appended Next Post:

 d-usa wrote:
Can unions be bad? Yes.

Are unions still needed? Yes.

Agreed...

In my local area, one of the hospitals, the Nurses formed a union. I wonder how that works? It isn't likely that they'll ever strike.

God I wish I had access to work like that at that age.

 Testify wrote:
God I wish I had access to work like that at that age.

You just gotta be willing to do just about anything and look for them. That's the hardest part, going out to find any job (not the one you're looking for).

gak... I'd go to local golf place, and they paid me to rebuild a couple sand bunkers... man, that was back breaking labor (we had equipment too!). I think I got $50 that day.

Things like that. I was young... I could do that.

EDIT: I don't mean to be snarky... I have no idea if it's like that now... but, I was young and wanted to do anything (did some stupid things too).

 whembly wrote:


In my local area, one of the hospitals, the Nurses formed a union. I wonder how that works? It isn't likely that they'll ever strike.

I don't know how that works exactly, but I work in Workers' Compensation and we insure a union hospital. The staff nurses make over $80 an hour and they are currently on strike for a "fair contract". Seems like the patients and health insurance should be on strike against the hospital.

 Lt. Coldfire wrote:

 whembly wrote:


In my local area, one of the hospitals, the Nurses formed a union. I wonder how that works? It isn't likely that they'll ever strike.

I don't know how that works exactly, but I work in Workers' Compensation and we insure a union hospital. The staff nurses make over $80 an hour and they are currently on strike for a "fair contract". Seems like the patients and health insurance should be on strike against the hospital.

Hmmmm...

Then those non-Union PRN nurses must be really raking it in now.

Nurses can strike.

There is some good money to be made everytime California nurses strike.

 Andrew1975 wrote:

Not at all, if they'd accepted the deal they would have kept their workers EMPLOYED. The Unions struck out of their own greed against a COURT ORDER and lost over 18,000 people their jobs. Was the Management in the wrong here? Yes absolutely but the Unions struck the death blow.

Wouldn't accepting the cuts been selling out their workers to make a buck, just as you said? The union gets nothing from shutting down hostess. But forcing members to take a pay cut while management gets giant raises, just so they could keep those Union dues rolling is it exactly as you put "Selling out the workers". Choose an argument and stick to it please.

A responsible corporate manager wouldn't take from the employees while rewarding themselves with a big giant raise. It's insulting and I can see why they didn't take the cuts. The question is why didn't the bankruptcy judgment put a cap on or even freeze corporate salaries. Why were the employees, who make no management decisions being the only ones punished for.......and wait for it.......MISMANAGEMENT! The whole thing stinks of corporate rats leaving a sinking ship. Management knew the corporation would not likely survive, so they made sure to get as much money out as they could, screw the employees.

Clearly management was not interested in saving the company, so why should the Union.

What sucks is again the middle class worker gets screwed either way. Take a pay cut or lose your jobs, doesn't matter to management, they have already got their giant salaries and I'm sure some pretty nice Golden parachutes. If management was willing to take the same kind of cuts, then maybe the union would have seen fit to negotiate....but that didn't happen. How could a union rep ever advice their people to take this deal, when it was obviously so lopsided.

Yeah there's two side to this story.
Theres the side of unemployed workers that voted to keep thier jobs in exchange for a 25% stake in the company, 2 spots on the board of directors, an 8% pay cut followed by a subsequent 4% raise over what was it 4 years? Sure let's go with that.
And on the other side you have the unemployed workers who didn't just cause thier own unemployment they put 2 times thier own number out of work. So yeah for some reason I blame the union.

Because there was one side that was not only not interested in concessions, they voted themselves giant raises on the backs of ALL the employees. This shows no real interest in fixing the problem which was mismanagement.

1. HOSTESS had been bankrupt before. In 2004 the top managers and the labour union of the company made a negotiations regarding to wage and benefits cuts on the worker side. as we've known. the union boss agreed to 'sacrifice'. if one says that a few goons in the union had been lobbied (and they agreed) then looked at what happened in the years leading to it? if top managers offered some union goons 25% stock holdings in the company, two seats in the boards of directors, and so on, in exchanges of 8% wage and benefits cuts imposed on every employees there? then the top managers did convince the remaining employees that "the wage cuts can save an estimated $110 Millions. and will eventually bring us back from bankruptcy. The company promise that we will reinvest this sum in our manufacturing units, if you disagree, you will lose your job for good! do it or die". if the top managers didn't convince the rest of the employees that way then the union held a meeting that the union boss will convince every members that the wage cuts will go to the reinvestments of the company and it was the only way to save them.
even with or without such conspiracy. by 2004 the agreement was actually bourne from 'the common good'. employees hope that it will lead to the reinvestment , and therefore their career stability.
2. Few days ago. the company went bankrupt once again. The top managers walked to the union and asked them to do the same they did 8 years ago. this time the union refused. why? the promises reinvestments in business operations didn't come to reality. and look at what followed up? the company had been crossed out for good! its debtors liquidated all its assets. so what? what happened to the large sum of $110M ? it was either went to the top manager's pocket, or the Stock Exchange, or being allocated to both. and from now on all those ex-HOSTESS workers will curse the name of the managers. the protest is just a beginning, and I believe they've brought the managers/shareholders misconduct to the court. and beyond!
Is this contradicts to the conspiracy hypothesis of the HOSTESS managers and the union boss?
3. Sometimes. union and its bosses (such as those of the State Railway of Thailand) may be so corrupt and union members may be leeches. but generally. unions have moral standards to draw the line. to set the equillibrium between them and their employers. to which extend they should whine, which direction of their movements are also dangerous to them as much as the business/industry they're working in? too much demand and the they will lose their jobs in a number of ways mostly by the two conditions
3.1 a company they're working with decided to move elsewhere where labour costs are deemed profitable for them. i.e. where they can either snuff the employees will to create a union. there are some countries that 'discourage' unionizations in various of ways. some may ban it outright, others simply set a series complex and easily corruptible bureaucracy that the unions can be controlled by the 'ruling castes'. without the 'problematic union' the company can prosper, this is the logic why many american corporates go to China, this is why G.M. and Ford left Detroit and goes to Chonburi. Thailand. and shut down manufacturing units in the USA entirely.
3.2 a company shuts down entirely due to being overburdened by union demans. in some industries (such as Railroad) this phenomenon might happens but it is usually compounded with other factors. externally, and internally.
so does the Union boss kills HOSTESS? no.

Well twinkies are extremely easy to bake. So no surprise.

So people just made their own explains the bankruptcy that is.

 Asherian Command wrote:
Well twinkies are extremely easy to bake. So no surprise.

So people just made their own explains the bankruptcy that is.

Does brand image easy to bake in the same way?

it takes YEARS. sometimes DECADES or a century for a brand to become household ones.

 Lone Cat wrote:

 Asherian Command wrote:
Well twinkies are extremely easy to bake. So no surprise.

So people just made their own explains the bankruptcy that is.

Does brand image easy to bake in the same way?

it takes YEARS. sometimes DECADES or a century for a brand to become household ones.

I mean is that making anything from that company i could easily make in a weekend. Food wise. You take this too seriously...

Hes does have a point. The Hostess Twinkie is an icon known around the world. When was the last time something that well known disappeared. It's not like Zerox, Kodak or Pontiac. This is an cheap everyday product with a strong brand reputation, loyalty and wide spread use from the basic snack cake to twinkie wedding cakes and gourmet deep fried twinkies that are all the rage. Certainly Andy Warhol would have used it in a print if he was still alive. Its hard to understand exactly how such a strong brand dies. Its not like the car industry where the Japanese came in with a cheaper better product. Hostess and the twinkie were THE snack cake. How do you mess that up? Its not like people are not buying junk food and I can't really name another snack cake company that shared the same brand image. There were competitors sure, but when I think of the brands they seam to pale in comparison, almost knock offs to Hostess, Twinkies, Ho-Hos and pies.

Bye guys



So long Captain Cupcake.
Good Bye Twinkie The Kid
Adios Fruit Pie The Magician
Auf Wiedersehen Happy The Ranger

 Andrew1975 wrote:
Hes does have a point. The Hostess Twinkie is an icon known around the world. When was the last time something that well known disappeared. It's not like Zerox, Kodak or Pontiac. This is an cheap everyday product with a strong brand reputation, loyalty and wide spread use from the basic snack cake to twinkie wedding cakes and gourmet deep fried twinkies that are all the rage. Certainly Andy Warhol would have used it in a print if he was still alive. Its hard to understand exactly how such a strong brand dies. Its not like the car industry where the Japanese came in with a cheaper better product. Hostess and the twinkie were THE snack cake. How do you mess that up?

you don't watch your money.
It happened in the past as well.

It wasn't the union protest that broke the company.

It was nearly a decade of fiscal mismanagement that killed the company.

It's insane that people don't think unions aren't needed. Companies can and WILL screw you over if they can.

 Asherian Command wrote:

 Andrew1975 wrote:
Hes does have a point. The Hostess Twinkie is an icon known around the world. When was the last time something that well known disappeared. It's not like Zerox, Kodak or Pontiac. This is an cheap everyday product with a strong brand reputation, loyalty and wide spread use from the basic snack cake to twinkie wedding cakes and gourmet deep fried twinkies that are all the rage. Certainly Andy Warhol would have used it in a print if he was still alive. Its hard to understand exactly how such a strong brand dies. Its not like the car industry where the Japanese came in with a cheaper better product. Hostess and the twinkie were THE snack cake. How do you mess that up?

you don't watch your money.
It happened in the past as well.

Yeah, but when you are the market leader.......I mean that is some gross mismanagement.

Now this is where I can see the Union as a bad guy. How much were these bakers making a year? Were they as overly compensated as some of the Auto Workers? There is no reason they deserve to make $100K a year. This is always my problem with some Unions, there is really no reason in my mind that unskilled uneducated highschool dropouts need to make $100K a year working on assembly lines. Not saying that is the case here....I don't know. I do know that I felt many of the Auto Workers were really overpaid. I knew a guy that worked the line for Ford and was raking in over $100k a year.

So yes Unions can go overboard. But this one seams to rest with management.

 MrScience wrote:
It wasn't the union protest that broke the company.
It was nearly a decade of fiscal mismanagement that killed the company.

1. so when did HOSTESS being bought by Hedge funds?
2. http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2012/nov/16/hostess-twinkies-closes-striking-workers In a news site there are a hot debates regarding to the reasons that ends HOSTESS for good. classic Workers VS Robber Barons. one of the comments said that 'media' is being so bias, saying the workers union being leeches (and sadly it seems the ex-HOSTESS workers have no access to the similar media to express another half of the whole story). if the media keeps bashing them and slam shut its doos when the ex- Hostess worker requested them to air their 'truth' . expect an angry mob at the lightest resolves.

I kinda surprised that nobody has mentioned the likelihood that the Twinky brand name will be picked up by another company.

This is not the end of the Twinkie, y'all.

^
1. http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2012/nov/16/hostess-twinkies-closes-striking-workers

Individual product names, however, are likely to be auctioned by the bankruptcy court and live on under new owners. A "Save The Twinkie" campaign has already been launched by talk show hostess Wendy Williams.

Only if the judge approved the auctions. the question is. "Who? will it be a group of robber barons from Wall Street? or the prosperious competitors. like Hershey and Gulico will alter Twinkies even further once they bought the brand"?

 Andrew1975 wrote:

 Asherian Command wrote:

 Andrew1975 wrote:
Hes does have a point. The Hostess Twinkie is an icon known around the world. When was the last time something that well known disappeared. It's not like Zerox, Kodak or Pontiac. This is an cheap everyday product with a strong brand reputation, loyalty and wide spread use from the basic snack cake to twinkie wedding cakes and gourmet deep fried twinkies that are all the rage. Certainly Andy Warhol would have used it in a print if he was still alive. Its hard to understand exactly how such a strong brand dies. Its not like the car industry where the Japanese came in with a cheaper better product. Hostess and the twinkie were THE snack cake. How do you mess that up?

you don't watch your money.
It happened in the past as well.

Yeah, but when you are the market leader.......I mean that is some gross mismanagement.

Now this is where I can see the Union as a bad guy. How much were these bakers making a year? Were they as overly compensated as some of the Auto Workers? There is no reason they deserve to make $100K a year. This is always my problem with some Unions, there is really no reason in my mind that unskilled uneducated highschool dropouts need to make $100K a year working on assembly lines. Not saying that is the case here....I don't know. I do know that I felt many of the Auto Workers were really overpaid. I knew a guy that worked the line for Ford and was raking in over $100k a year.

So yes Unions can go overboard. But this one seams to rest with management.

2. Like I said. good unions must define its borders and tresholds along the "Capitalist VS Workers" continuum, spoiling too much and they could lose their jobs in a number of ways, yielding to the pleas of greedy top managers who had no skills in the same industry and wishing them to reinvest can bring the worst. it is the matter of situations that are guidelines to union bosses.
3. Got it! G.E. Capital owned HOSTESS during its final decade. so no wonder why the union boss said "none of the six CEOs have any skills in bakery market" . G.E. sent experts in the field of industrial market to rule a company that targets totally different markets" a perfect candicate to ruin HOSTESS further and squeeze money out of its carcass. so don't be so nervous if ex-HOSTESS workers stage a protest in front of G.E. Headquarters or one of its factories.

The more I read about this, it just seams so intentional. The fund owners wanted hostess shut down, no one is really that bad at their jobs.....are they?

 SoloFalcon1138 wrote:
The ones most affected by this will be the chemical companies who, for decades, have been supplying the bulk of the ingredients for Hostess products...

Yea, all that H2O, Na Cl+, C12H22O11, NaHCO3...Also known as Water, Salt, sugar, Baking soda...

I'm sure the salt industry will be fine.

Just researching this on the net. Its amazing how all the right wing articles completely skip over so many of the facts to make this look like fanatic Obama Liberals happily destroying a company. This is exactly why Romney lost. The republican party and the right have completely sold out the middle class. It's really disgusting. I'm actually watching the looting of America by the rich.... and they have duped so many in the middle class to support them, by preying on their fears.

This shootout might have a chance to repeat itself if media keeps airing 'anti-union' propaganda.

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-504083_162-20016064-504083.html

in 2010. Philadelphia Yvonne Hiller, a disgruntled Kraft Foods employee (who, at the time.. was suspended). entered a factory with a fully loaded .357 Magnum pistol and with her anger, killed 2 and wounded 1 fellas there. reasons for either suspension or killing spree remains unknown. I don't know how far did the case go? probaly this will not end well for Yvonne. life prisonment or being henked.

several years earlier. Kraft did suffer the similar fate as Hostess. initially they closed several factores and laid off several thousands of crews. yet. every cashes Kraft recovered went to R&D division. once things return to Kraft favor. new, and healthier products hit the shelves and Kraft got back to its feet. this is made possible because the then-owner of Kraft was venture investors. not hedgefunds nor Wallstreet goons. venture investors never bet solely on Wallstreets nor making wealths by price speculations. they believe in the wealths generated by the business operations. any gains from Stock Exchange is considered extra.
Hath someone with a right mind, throughout and dilligent and yet. wealthy bought Hostess from hedgefunds much earlier. Hostess will survive and anti-union propaganda / provocations will not be replayed by now.

so now Hedgefunds have top lawyer goons to make sure that not even a lil one cent will be paid to those yelling ex-Hostess workers. ones that will ensure that all Hostess assets will be sold in bidding prices and will snuff every union yells. and Unions had a limited resources to fight in the same rule of the sport. disgruntled ex-Hostess workers may one day put up arms (possibly smuggled along Texas-Mexican border) and stage a similar shootout. now targeting robber barons instead. you can say it may not happen but. what if it did? how will public responses to this scenario?

I know this is in bad taste... but, this funny:

Those ebay auctions keep getting better as well, there was a box up for $5k.

Wait! i've also found out that some labour unions were indeed corrupts and are actually associated with The Mafia. and Teamster was listed amongs the most corrupted unions.

Inside the mafia-infiltrated unions. leadership embezzlements are common, also the union presidency elections are usually done by using 'paper locals'. common memberships inside this union usually not benefited from the organization. in the closing days of HOSTESS. Teamsters boss decisions towards the wage and benefit cuts had been contradicted to the 'majority votes' of other unions and workers. Teamsters says yes to the deal while the rests had enough. this could stem from Teamsters connections with the Mafia itself. Mafia never fights for the common goods of proletariats. they simply try to manipulate various dispuites between the Workers and Employers. the manipulation usually favors the greedy CEOs, but it might not always intended to be. in construction projects. Mafia manipulates the dispuites on the Union side so they can extort (and sometimes. totally eliminate) non-associate contractors.

But did the Mafia actually controls the Stock Exchange too? if so, to whih extend did they actually controls?

I've been in a Teamster Union before and they were the definition of sleezy. Granted, there's Teamster Unions all over the United States so I have no idea they're all like that or if its just some of them.

whembly wrote:

 Testify wrote:
How can you need 4 jobs? How many hours were you working?

mainly a bunch of side jobs to keep me busy.

School full time...

Projectionist at local theater...

Helped friend in his lawn business...

Delivered pizza...

On top of that, did what we called "Desk Clerk" at my dorm 5 nights a week, where I made sure guest signed. (that paid for my rm/bed).

Worked my tail off... I think that's why I got my first IT job (duing y2k as my boss then really needed someone to haul ass)








Automatically Appended Next Post:

 d-usa wrote:
Can unions be bad? Yes.

Are unions still needed? Yes.

Agreed...

In my local area, one of the hospitals, the Nurses formed a union. I wonder how that works? It isn't likely that they'll ever strike.

whembly wrote:I know this is in bad taste... but, this funny:

I've figured it out. Whembly is Tyler Durden.

Also, that image is not in poor taste. It has amazing taste.

And a creamy center.

Tyler Durden: All the ways you wish you could be, that's me. I look like you wanna look, I feth like you wanna feth, I am smart, capable, and most importantly, I am free in all the ways that you are not.

Tyler Durden: It's only after we've lost everything that we're free to do anything

 LordofHats wrote:
I've been in a Teamster Union before and they were the definition of sleezy. Granted, there's Teamster Unions all over the United States so I have no idea they're all like that or if its just some of them.

Before passing a judgement on this 'classic' dispuites. truths of each sides must be carefully observed.
1. Did you remember the legends "Beck VS Hoffa" in Teamster internal politics? boths have either seek help (or being offered ones) from Mafia gangs, Beck was backed by one mobster, Hoffa by different mafioso
And it seemed to relate with Hoffa eventual 'death without a trace' too!
2. Other organizations identified themselves as unions had denounced them. not only on a ground of rivalry but also moral standards.
2.1 by 50s Teamsters seemed to be 'militarized'. the organizaton (or its leaderships of each given time) openly 'raided' other unions.
2.2 and the Congress did indeed set up an investigation panel to check whether did Teamsters acts for a common good of both employers and employees? this might due to their frequent construction sites became more and more suspicious (similar phenomenon did happen in Sicily too). at one point. Congress behaved quite like a justice system, the process of investigation followed police and FBI patterns. at one point. either Beck or Hoffa repeatedly refuted (and repeadedly made a referrence to The Constitution of the United States so often. the practices had been denounced by other unions (can't remember its name) Either Beck or Hoffar by the time of their leaderships maintained an aggressive stances towards other fellow Unions. without those outlaw support, neither Hoffar nor Beck can become so hostile.
Associations with the Mafia did tarnish Teamster forever. and it seemed that the Mafia still runs Teamster even as of now. if BCTGM will denounce Teamster should any International Union conference thing happens.
Actually many anti-union opinions americans had expressed are stemmed from Teamsters misdeeds.

i'm looking forward if any of you will share both sides of the story.

L.