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 d-usa wrote:

 Sigvatr wrote:

 WarOne wrote:

And its a rather clever strategy to let LFGS and independent retailers house the games that people are supposed to play as it means their retailers can focus on selling and demonstrating rather than playing.

Uhm, if people play at their FLGS that often offer a discout on GW stuff, why would they buy at GW?

To quote the GW manager at the store 5 miles down from my house:

"We often have a better selection and we are closer to people in this side of the city. They can drive 5 minutes and get what they want right now instead of having to drive 30 minutes or waiting to order things online."

Those people (assuming they exist) are either...not...so...thoughtful...or, at the very least, responsible for why GW became such a huge, steaming pile of hot dogs...auce.

 Sigvatr wrote:

 d-usa wrote:

 Sigvatr wrote:

 WarOne wrote:

And its a rather clever strategy to let LFGS and independent retailers house the games that people are supposed to play as it means their retailers can focus on selling and demonstrating rather than playing.

Uhm, if people play at their FLGS that often offer a discout on GW stuff, why would they buy at GW?

To quote the GW manager at the store 5 miles down from my house:

"We often have a better selection and we are closer to people in this side of the city. They can drive 5 minutes and get what they want right now instead of having to drive 30 minutes or waiting to order things online."

Those people (assuming they exist) are either...not...so...thoughtful...or, at the very least, responsible for why GW became such a huge, steaming pile of hot dogs...auce.

Really?

"Have more inventory closer to your house" is the reason why GW became such a huge, steaming pile of hot dogs...auce?

I admit she has a point with that reasoning.

I could drive 30 minutes to either of my FLGS and get what I want for maybe 10% less. So if I am picking up a $40 box I save $4. It's a 46 mile round trip, so I will use up 1.5 gallons of gas at $3/gallon, so now I am spending an extra $0.50 on the same box, and I am spending 60 minutes in a car instead of 10. Of course if I get to my FLGS and they don't have the box in stock then I am just out of luck.

Or I could order online, save 20-25% (small part of those savings are cancelled by shipping) and get my stuff 3-4 days later. So lets say I take the same $40 box, save 20% ($8) and pay shipping ($5) and I end up saving a whole $3.

Or I could get in my car, and be back at my house in 15 minutes holding the box I wanted that I got at the GW that is 5 miles from my house. Because they decided to put a store in the busiest shopping district in Central Oklahoma, on the opposite side of town of the two established stores.

There have been plenty of times when I was putting something together or painting something and I realized "dang, I need this" and had to waste over an hour of my time to drive to the opposite side of town. This will be the time that GW will be the better choice for me. If I plan on making a big order I will turn to the Warstore. If I play I will play in my garage or at either of the two stores with tables in my city, and I don't have to worry about having somebody breathe down my neck trying to sell me something.

Use a bike?

I fully agree with you about that "dang!" experience, had that too sometimes.

I don't blame you or anyone doing so...it's your choice after all and I don't want to limit anyone in his or her choices. I just wanted to say that if you do so, you lose any valid reason to criticize for GW's current policy. Buying is a binary process and as long as GW makes a profit, they have the absolute legimitation to do whatever they want.

 Sigvatr wrote:

I don't blame you or anyone doing so...it's your choice after all and I don't want to limit anyone in his or her choices. I just wanted to say that if you do so, you lose any valid reason to criticize for GW's current policy. Buying is a binary process and as long as GW makes a profit, they have the absolute legimitation to do whatever they want.

So the store doesn't have anything to do with it then. Because no matter where you buy your GW product from (even second hand) at some point GW made money because buying is a binary process and they make a profit?

Ignoring the fact that you can buy stuff from a company and still be critical of them.

Not to beat this drum, but just to say it once: that's why, if their policies really bother you, vote with your wallet and support other companies.

I agree with d-usa, that it doesn't really matter where you buy their stuff, if you're buying their stuff.

Since I no longer own a single GW model, and won't be buying any, I am voting with my wallet supporting any other company I can get my hands on useful stuff from: Dreamforge, Trollforged, Kingdom Death, On The Lamb, Privateer Press, and tons of bits companies.

There's an ocean out there, folks. If you don't like the fish in one spot, try somewhere else

The most interesting thing about current trends is that GW is actually accelerating this process. By ending prize support for tournaments, and down-sizing stores, the incentive to use "all GW models" is drastically less than it was (in contrast to Privateer Press, for example). Add in the Kickstarter phenomenon, and you've got a tidal wave of new miniatures options hitting, and it will definitely be cutting into GW's bottom line.

The other fascinating thing about this time period, though, is that The Hobbit bubble is going to strongly mask this effect. Meaning, GW corporate might not even realize (or admit to shareholders) or take action until 4-5 years from now to reverse the trend. And by then, it will be too late!

I will link to this post at that time and brag to myself (although I know noone else will care, and many people are seeing this writing on the wall).

Change is coming, and what's more, accelerated by GW's own policies with their stores and tournaments! It's going to be good for miniature gaming, I think, and I am very much looking forward to it.

 Sigvatr wrote:
Use a bike?

I believe he just mentioned a 46 mile round trip. that's 74km. Now I like cycling as much as the next guy but that's (1) an exercise which will take 5 hours, instead of <1 and (2) something to only do in just the right weather.
And really? spending half a day to save $3? Good heavens man, I'm a student and my time is **cheap** to me, but that goes a wee bit too far even for my tastes

Same thing in Melbourne, they closed down 2 stores and moved them to smaller locations in more remote places. For the most part, I just go to private retailers for my wares, I find them more convenient and more cheaper. Win, win, win.

A reduction in playing space will hurt GW imho. Players are more likley to pay out the big money directly to GW, at no discount, if they play and congregate at stores that do not allow surrogate models and have excellent terrain.

Let's not forget if people game in the store they are there longer and are more likely to impulsively buy something.

This move is excellent for independent gaming stores and I therefore entirely approve.

UNCLEBADTOUCH wrote:
Let's not forget if people game in the store they are there longer and are more likely to impulsively buy something.

I suspect that really isn't true, or that they buy so little as to make it not worth the extra space and staff time it takes to have and monitor a game area.

CptJake wrote:

UNCLEBADTOUCH wrote:
Let's not forget if people game in the store they are there longer and are more likely to impulsively buy something.

I suspect that really isn't true, or that they buy so little as to make it not worth the extra space and staff time it takes to have and monitor a game area.

Having worked for GW it is definately true, people that pop in to make a purchase get what they came for and leave with what they came for and generally nothing else. It's far easier to tip someone into splashing out on a new unit or army when they are actively engaged in gaming or painting instore.

 d-usa wrote:

 Sigvatr wrote:

I don't blame you or anyone doing so...it's your choice after all and I don't want to limit anyone in his or her choices. I just wanted to say that if you do so, you lose any valid reason to criticize for GW's current policy. Buying is a binary process and as long as GW makes a profit, they have the absolute legimitation to do whatever they want.

So the store doesn't have anything to do with it then. Because no matter where you buy your GW product from (even second hand) at some point GW made money because buying is a binary process and they make a profit?

Ignoring the fact that you can buy stuff from a company and still be critical of them.

The profit GW makes from second hand buying is precisely 0,00€ / $.

Sure, you can be critical of a company despite buying their stuff...as stated before, that's your basic right. The thing is that GW just does not give a flying cra....nberry about your opinion then. You buy, you like it. That's what gets up to them. That's what they get out of it. If your sentence would be "I buy it, but..." they stop after reading "I buy it".

I do not want to invalidate your opinion. I do not want to and I cannot do so either. It's your valid opinion. It's just that GW doesn't care.

Vote with your wallet. There's nothing else.

And thinking that GW gets 0,00€ / $ from second hand purchases is being delusional.

 d-usa wrote:
And thinking that GW gets 0,00€ / $ from second hand purchases is being delusional.

Tell me how they make any profit of second hand sales.

 Sigvatr wrote:

 d-usa wrote:
And thinking that GW gets 0,00€ / $ from second hand purchases is being delusional.

Tell me how they make any profit of second hand sales.

I believe it may be due to the potential whatever cash the seller gets from selling an army on eBay for example will be used to buy GW products first hand.

 Grimtuff wrote:

 Sigvatr wrote:

 d-usa wrote:
And thinking that GW gets 0,00€ / $ from second hand purchases is being delusional.

Tell me how they make any profit of second hand sales.

I believe it may be due to the potential whatever cash the seller gets from selling an army on eBay for example will be used to buy GW products first hand.

That's an assumption. I'm being fully rational here. What if someone just quit the hobby and wants to make a few bucks? What if he decided to pick up another system? All at least equally valid assumptions...and I am not arguing based on assumptions.

Even if someone would do so, GW still does not make any profit of the trade itself. Let's look at another example.

Someone sells his collection of beer bottles on ebay and uses the money he therefore makes to buy GW miniatures. Has GW then made a profit of those beer bottles?

I get his point. It's just that it's based on uncertain assumptions and, if you're precise about it, it's not correct.

And yours is based on the uncertain assumptions that the person you are giving your money to when buying second hand is not going to turn around and pass the money on to GW which he wouldn't have been able to do if you didn't buy the old stuff.

If you want to boycot the evil GW, then boycot them. Don't play their rules or models at all. For all you know some poor soul sees you enjoying a game and then spends his hard earned money on GW...

Edit: This whole discussion about "spending money on anything other than 2nd hand GW products only encourages the evil corporate monster" is pretty off-topic and has nothing to do with this thread, so I'm going to wrap it up.

GW opened a new store in Putney, but its closed whenever I've walked past so haven't really been in there.

Bit strange opening one in Putney when they closed the Richmond store a couple of years ago. Same thing happened just over the river - Hammersmith was closed, then they opened one up in Chiswick.

Still not sure what the moral outrage is supposed to be about. GW is looking to cut some overhead costs. Since sacrifickng production or distribution is out of the question, why not downsize the stores? Less staff, less rent, and fewer loiterers in the store making them unfriendly places smelling vaguely of cheese and BO?

Raise entry costs + lower support -> more profit for shareholders this year and maybe next!

What support? Every employee of GW is clearly at most a corporate raider and at least a complete idiot. According to page after page of threads, they are unfriendly places where models are carefully weighed for GW content. What is the point of worrying since GW stores are universally reviled by everyone?

 d-usa wrote:
And yours is based on the uncertain assumptions that the person you are giving your money to when buying second hand is not going to turn around and pass the money on to GW which he wouldn't have been able to do if you didn't buy the old stuff.

If you want to boycot the evil GW, then boycot them. Don't play their rules or models at all. For all you know some poor soul sees you enjoying a game and then spends his hard earned money on GW...

Edit: This whole discussion about "spending money on anything other than 2nd hand GW products only encourages the evil corporate monster" is pretty off-topic and has nothing to do with this thread, so I'm going to wrap it up.

Incorrect and furthermore, you're jumping to (false) conclusions. Where exactly did I say that I assume what the person who sells stuff on ebay is going to do? I merely pointed out your logical flaw. I am fully rational here.

Person sells his / her miniatures at ebay. Person gains money. GW makes no profit.

That is the only correct logical conclusion here. Everything else, especially what might happen with the profit, is fully open to speculation and not as logical as you claim it to be.

Furthermore, from a mod, I'd expect you not to "wrap it up" by mocking the other user. It's highly unprofessional and rude. I do agree, though, that we should not elaborate on this further. I keep my rational point of view, you keep your point of view, we agree to disagree. Move on.

Regarding the original topic:

Again, you miss my point by jumping to wrong conclusions. There's nothing like an "evil corporate monster". I fully believe in capitalism. I do not blame GW for anything. They do seem to develop a very customer-unfriendly attitude when it comes to long-time players - e.g. the downsizing of stores / removing the ability to play in a "hobby centre". Keep in mind they still call it "hobby centres", not "(retail) stores". But they still make a profit. Seemingly, still people buy their stuff. Thus there is no reason to do anything else. Everything that GW does is the customer's fault as they / we keep buying GW products. The only thing a company will react to are sinking / bad sales. As this is not the case, GW is free of any guilt. If downsizing stores raises their profit - do it. Let's see how it turns out. If profit stays the same / increases, it was the right decision and people embrace the move. If it lowers, GW might reconsider their decision. Either way, everyone wins.

 Sigvatr wrote:
Furthermore, from a mod, I'd expect you not to "wrap it up" by mocking the other user. It's highly unprofessional and rude.

Who's the mod? And I don't think I was being mocking. If it sounded like that it was not my intention.

 d-usa wrote:

If you want to boycot the evil GW, then boycot them. Don't play their rules or models at all.

This. Unless you are buying from someone that is dumping his army, never to return to the folds of GW, you're still supporting GW.

I'm fine with the mini stores. I can count on 1 hand the number of times I've been in an actual GW store (3 times). An FLGS? That many in the past month, and I don't play in stores.

However, their policy of no longer supporting FLGS that run tournaments with prize support and their complete dismissal of their own tournaments is a huge failure on their part. Why would you spite the game stores that are drawing crowd to play your game? That's completely asinine.

Edit: DCM is not MOD.

What attracted myself and one of my Family intitially , and was responsible in the main for the fairly large amount of money spent by the two of us on GW was the older system of having gaming tables , a regular clientele of fellow gamers , and multiple enthusiastic staff .
It used to be exciting and a buzz ( notwithstanding the occasion jerks ) and encouraged multiple army / system collecting .

We are very much Post -GW for some time , and if we were to freshly discover GW now , things would be so different ,

 SoloFalcon1138 wrote:
Still not sure what the moral outrage is supposed to be about.

You appear to have posted in the wrong thread, because there is no 'moral outrage' in this one.

 d-usa wrote:
If you want to boycot the evil GW, then boycot them. Don't play their rules or models at all. For all you know some poor soul sees you enjoying a game and then spends his hard earned money on GW...

Again with this nonsense. Why does disliking GW mean you have to stop playing? Not using the stuff you already own is akin to cutting your nose off to spite your face.

I was just replying with hyperbole to the idea that I can't be critical of GW as long as I buy anything except second-hand GW parts.

A few posts before that there should be a post where I say that you can play and buy and still be critical of their actions and decisions which is my stand on things.

 d-usa wrote:
A few posts before that there should be a post where I say that you can play and buy and still be critical of their actions and decisions which is my stand on things.

Fair enough. Conceeded. I only saw the quoted text.