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So reading of some Tyranid fluff, and it seems like while the Hive mind is often suggested to be a single entity, but the Hierarchy seems to end with the Norn Queens aboard the Hive Ships. Given that proximity seems to be a factor in maintaining synapse connection, it would seem that seperate Norn Queens/Fleets would be seperate entities, possibly forming a sort of collective of seperate fleets/entity, rather than a single Tyranid entity.

This is further evidenced by the fact that the fluff mentions that different hive fleets often use different Tyranid strains, and infact sometimes fight each other to "test" and further adapt their strains. And also why the whole fleet seems to decent into their animalistic state if the Hive ships get destroyed.

So the question is, is the Norn Queens actually separate Warp entities that use the rest of the Tyrand species as semi-sentient appendiges, and only communicate like a pack. Or are the Norns simply oversized synapse creatures that simply can maintain the Synapse connection over massive interstellar distances, thus enabling a single unified hive mind?

It's a Hive mind.
It's formed by all the Tyranids together (or maybe just the big smart ones)

The mind lies someplace in deep space or even another galaxy where most of the Tyranids are coming from. Everything else is like a bundle of nerves transcending down the line - each fiber (Tyranid) becoming more and more autonomic as it get's closer to the front.

I think the idea is based on power or strength, when cut off from the hive mind, the instinct is to follow the largest or most powerful i think.

Speculation is that the hive mind is a single entity, perhaps te c'tan Outsider

I'm gonna say seperate entities. Cause that's the way I always imagined it.

Oops I accidentally exalted someone post

DrDuckman wrote:
So reading of some Tyranid fluff, and it seems like while the Hive mind is often suggested to be a single entity, but the Hierarchy seems to end with the Norn Queens aboard the Hive Ships. Given that proximity seems to be a factor in maintaining synapse connection, it would seem that seperate Norn Queens/Fleets would be seperate entities, possibly forming a sort of collective of seperate fleets/entity, rather than a single Tyranid entity.

This is further evidenced by the fact that the fluff mentions that different hive fleets often use different Tyranid strains, and infact sometimes fight each other to "test" and further adapt their strains. And also why the whole fleet seems to decent into their animalistic state if the Hive ships get destroyed.

So the question is, is the Norn Queens actually separate Warp entities that use the rest of the Tyrand species as semi-sentient appendiges, and only communicate like a pack. Or are the Norns simply oversized synapse creatures that simply can maintain the Synapse connection over massive interstellar distances, thus enabling a single unified hive mind?

As a tyranid player, I can answer that. The hive mind is actually one single unit. Think of the galaxy as a chess board, and each hive fleet is a pawn. A single mind controls it all, however, things change over distance for it. As a hive fleet travels together in the void of space, it is all on one particular spot, joined in one single titanic entity. Now, Pawn A decides to jump 2 spaces, while B only jumps 1. As the game progresses, each pawn becomes separated from the unit, some being agressive and taking the charge across the board, wiping out the other pieces, while others move slowly, blocking more than anything. As the hive fleets separate, the hive mind fractures, in a sense. The link is more strained, and each smaller fleet begins to develope its own style, its own preferences, while still being apart of the great fleet, albeit much farther out. Each fleet then sends out its own tendrils, its own subfleets, which then begin to take on their own characteristics. While information is to be had by all tyranids, it is when they begin to close with each other that they become much more dangerous, as the semi fragmented hive mind reaches cohesion with the other fragments of itself strung out across space connecting all the hive fleets together. Thats why small fleets tend to seem to go to pieces when they are nearly destroyed. The hive minds bond is only as strong as the force in the area, and why people think that popping a synapse creature turns everything crazy. Individually, most aren't advanced enough to hear the hive mind, like their synapse counterparts, and so tend to revert to the natural instincts they were bred for.

As for the Norn Queens, don't think of them as the true brains of the operation. Think of them more like an amplifier. Norn queens do not tell anything what to do. The only thing that gives orders in the tyranid chain of command is the hive mind. The Norn queens are simply so massive that they act as beacons of the hive mind, amplifying the commands of the hive mind to all the tyranid bioforms. The only real function that the norn queen has in the tyranid chain of command is to breed troops. In fact, they really aren't all that neccessary, it seems. Look at the Ghorla swarm. A few pods landed, and with no queens, the tyranid bioforms simply began to collect biomass for the digestion pools hidden away, and began to increase their numbers. There is no explanation how, but they did.

I agree with the majority of your description Mr Hunger but I will add my thoughts.

 Unyielding Hunger wrote:

A single mind controls it all, however, things change over distance for it. As a hive fleet travels together in the void of space, it is all on one particular spot, joined in one single titanic entity. Now, Pawn A decides to jump 2 spaces, while B only jumps 1. As the game progresses, each pawn becomes separated from the unit, some being agressive and taking the charge across the board, wiping out the other pieces, while others move slowly, blocking more than anything. As the hive fleets separate, the hive mind fractures, in a sense.

I don't believe this is entirely the case, as long as there are synapse creatures the link to the Hive Mind is strong, you'll find that as Synapse Creatures are destroyed, which is one of the Imperiums key tactics in fighting the Tyranid, the link weakens and the organisms default to their base instincts. The Synapse link is like a spider web and all creatures are connected through this as all fleets are just a piece of the whole. This is always a good image to refer to



and this is how the Tyranids are actually



The way I see them eventually being separated and eventually defeated is as they pour more and more organisms into a battle they are expending Biomass, say the Biomass is like a big elastic band, it will pull and pull and pull but eventually it will snap, leaving the Tyranid separated from the main supply chain, eventually, if they aren't all destroyed they will go into hibernation until they are awoken again.

Do defeated or Hive Fleets that are sleeping awaken fully when the Synapse link is restored, this is how I see it. Perhaps the link is what makes them go into hibernation when their isn't enough Biomass to ensure it's survival, sort of a power save switch.

 Unyielding Hunger wrote:
The link is more strained, and each smaller fleet begins to develope its own style, its own preferences while still being apart of the great fleet, albeit much farther out. Each fleet then sends out its own tendrils, its own subfleets, which then begin to take on their own characteristics

I would not say that this is not down to the link becoming strained, this is down to the Tyranid adapting to its environment and what ever foe it may come across. What the Tyranid learn in one hive fleet can be passed up the chain and down to another so that the same tactics are enhancements can be used to overcome a similar enemy. Like the Swarmlord can be spawned where it is required the most.

 Unyielding Hunger wrote:

.... Thats why small fleets tend to seem to go to pieces when they are nearly destroyed. The hive minds bond is only as strong as the force in the area, and why people think that popping a synapse creature turns everything crazy. Individually, most aren't advanced enough to hear the hive mind, like their synapse counterparts, and so tend to revert to the natural instincts they were bred for.

The Synapse Creatures are the rod that beats the lesser creatures into line with what the Hive Mind wills, so I would disagree with you here. The Synapse creatures are and should be the best target as they are the will that holds the Tyranid together. Without that bond to the Hive Mind then all things go to gak for the Tyranid. Also a lack of Biomass could be a reason why the Hive Fleets lose cohesion, without the juice that keeps them going they can't keep up the levels of production .

 Unyielding Hunger wrote:
As for the Norn Queens, don't think of them as the true brains of the operation. Think of them more like an amplifier. Norn queens do not tell anything what to do. The only thing that gives orders in the tyranid chain of command is the hive mind. The Norn queens are simply so massive that they act as beacons of the hive mind, amplifying the commands of the hive mind to all the tyranid bioforms. The only real function that the norn queen has in the tyranid chain of command is to breed troops. In fact, they really aren't all that neccessary, it seems. Look at the Ghorla swarm. A few pods landed, and with no queens, the tyranid bioforms simply began to collect biomass for the digestion pools hidden away, and began to increase their numbers. There is no explanation how, but they did.

Norn Queens are a little more than that, they are the key Synapse creature and driving force and without the Norn Queens there would be no evolution and adaption. Queens stay on the Hive Ships, if the Tyranid were to lose a Norn Queen then they would be greatly hampered.

Thats my 20 pence anyway

 Pilau Rice wrote:
I agree with the majority of your description Mr Hunger but I will add my thoughts.

 Unyielding Hunger wrote:

A single mind controls it all, however, things change over distance for it. As a hive fleet travels together in the void of space, it is all on one particular spot, joined in one single titanic entity. Now, Pawn A decides to jump 2 spaces, while B only jumps 1. As the game progresses, each pawn becomes separated from the unit, some being agressive and taking the charge across the board, wiping out the other pieces, while others move slowly, blocking more than anything. As the hive fleets separate, the hive mind fractures, in a sense.

I don't believe this is entirely the case, as long as there are synapse creatures the link to the Hive Mind is strong, you'll find that as Synapse Creatures are destroyed, which is one of the Imperiums key tactics in fighting the Tyranid, the link weakens and the organisms default to their base instincts. The Synapse link is like a spider web and all creatures are connected through this as all fleets are just a piece of the whole. This is always a good image to refer to



and this is how the Tyranids are actually



The way I see them eventually being separated and eventually defeated is as they pour more and more organisms into a battle they are expending Biomass, say the Biomass is like a big elastic band, it will pull and pull and pull but eventually it will snap, leaving the Tyranid separated from the main supply chain, eventually, if they aren't all destroyed they will go into hibernation until they are awoken again.

Do defeated or Hive Fleets that are sleeping awaken fully when the Synapse link is restored, this is how I see it. Perhaps the link is what makes them go into hibernation when their isn't enough Biomass to ensure it's survival, sort of a power save switch.

 Unyielding Hunger wrote:
The link is more strained, and each smaller fleet begins to develope its own style, its own preferences while still being apart of the great fleet, albeit much farther out. Each fleet then sends out its own tendrils, its own subfleets, which then begin to take on their own characteristics

I would not say that this is not down to the link becoming strained, this is down to the Tyranid adapting to its environment and what ever foe it may come across. What the Tyranid learn in one hive fleet can be passed up the chain and down to another so that the same tactics are enhancements can be used to overcome a similar enemy. Like the Swarmlord can be spawned where it is required the most.

 Unyielding Hunger wrote:

.... Thats why small fleets tend to seem to go to pieces when they are nearly destroyed. The hive minds bond is only as strong as the force in the area, and why people think that popping a synapse creature turns everything crazy. Individually, most aren't advanced enough to hear the hive mind, like their synapse counterparts, and so tend to revert to the natural instincts they were bred for.

The Synapse Creatures are the rod that beats the lesser creatures into line with what the Hive Mind wills, so I would disagree with you here. The Synapse creatures are and should be the best target as they are the will that holds the Tyranid together. Without that bond to the Hive Mind then all things go to gak for the Tyranid. Also a lack of Biomass

 Unyielding Hunger wrote:
As for the Norn Queens, don't think of them as the true brains of the operation. Think of them more like an amplifier. Norn queens do not tell anything what to do. The only thing that gives orders in the tyranid chain of command is the hive mind. The Norn queens are simply so massive that they act as beacons of the hive mind, amplifying the commands of the hive mind to all the tyranid bioforms. The only real function that the norn queen has in the tyranid chain of command is to breed troops. In fact, they really aren't all that neccessary, it seems. Look at the Ghorla swarm. A few pods landed, and with no queens, the tyranid bioforms simply began to collect biomass for the digestion pools hidden away, and began to increase their numbers. There is no explanation how, but they did.

Norn Queens are a little more than that, they are the key Synapse creature and driving force and without the Norn Queens there would be no evolution and adaption. Queens stay on the Hive Ships, if the Tyranid were to lose a Norn Queen then they would be greatly hampered.

Thats my 20 pence anyway

The power of imagery is strong in this one. I agree with you on the evolution part. And on the Norn Queen, i do agree with you on that. They do have great value, though there is no codex entry for them that I know of, so everything is speculation and interpretation. If GW ever came up with a model and rules for them, however, life would get exciting. Can you imagine something akin to a super tervigon that can spawn carnifex's, etc, etc, sitting in your back field?

 Unyielding Hunger wrote:

The power of imagery is strong in this one. I agree with you on the evolution part. And on the Norn Queen, i do agree with you on that. They do have great value, though there is no codex entry for them that I know of, so everything is speculation and interpretation. If GW ever came up with a model and rules for them, however, life would get exciting. Can you imagine something akin to a super tervigon that can spawn carnifex's, etc, etc, sitting in your back field?

Trying to put something that is supposedly unfathomable is quite difficult without the use of imagery

The 'are actually' comment and image was in jest though, but it could be the case.

It would be awesome indeed, but I don't think your regular gameboard would be large enough. I dread to think what it would look like though ...

The fact that tyranids adapted to more successful invasions strategies in successive hive fleets points at a single hive mind, or at least a share of information between hive fleets.

Norn Queen for Apocalypse pooping out carnifexes would be awesome.

Mr Matt, skip the carnifex. Pop out biotitans. I believe the standard imperial guard protocol for dealing with a gigantic tyranid organism that turns baneblades into swiss cheese to to crap their pants and run faster than their commissar can fire.

I always envisioned norn queens to be like jaba-the-hut meets DNA splicing test tube lol. I didn't think they rapidly spawned critters but more created the originals which were copied and replicated by other means. However having a jaba-the-hut like tyranid bigger then an emperor Titan in apoc would be undoubtedly hilarious! Norn queen rolls over...