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reaper with no name wrote:
GKs were seemingly written with 6th edition in mind, and they have force weapons that specifically bypass a Daemon's EW. So I'm certain EW will at least remain an option for Daemons.

GK force weapons do not bypass EW. Anything with EW remains immune to instant death caused by the force weapon weilder activating the weapon.

The thing that kills the Daemon (or Psyker) is Daemonbane, which doesn't cause instant death, it removes the model as a casualty.

I'd be happy to see EW leave Daemons (and Daemonbane go away since its was simply a kludgy work around for the fact that they gave Daemons immunity to a weapon that had been written in the fluff as being better at killing them then most things).

Jack

 undertow wrote:

reaper with no name wrote:
GKs were seemingly written with 6th edition in mind, and they have force weapons that specifically bypass a Daemon's EW. So I'm certain EW will at least remain an option for Daemons.

GK force weapons do not bypass EW. Anything with EW remains immune to instant death caused by the force weapon weilder activating the weapon.

The thing that kills the Daemon (or Psyker) is Daemonbane, which doesn't cause instant death, it removes the model as a casualty.

I'm pretty sure that's exactly what I said. The Force Weapon kills the daemon with no concern for EW.

reaper with no name wrote:
I'm pretty sure that's exactly what I said. The Force Weapon kills the daemon with no concern for EW.

Only if the daemon doesn't make his LD 10 check. Which happens grand total of 8% of time.

 Jackmojo wrote:
I'd be happy to see EW leave Daemons (and Daemonbane go away since its was simply a kludgy work around for the fact that they gave Daemons immunity to a weapon that had been written in the fluff as being better at killing them then most things).

Jack

Losing EW while Grey Knights get to keep Daemonbane would be utterly pants. Especially since I'd also wager that we won't be keeping army-wide Ld10, but rather following more along the likes of Fantasy where units have differing Ld scores.

Imagine Bloodcrushers for example suddenly becoming non-EW & only Ld7 or 8 vs Daemonbane weapons?! Yep, won't even bother playing those games anymore it'd be so pointless.

I'd be highly impressed if G.W decided to take away EW but add Synergy with the latest CSM codex.

Ugh, all this thread makes me want to do is buy a damned Daemons army.

reaper with no name wrote:

 undertow wrote:

reaper with no name wrote:
GKs were seemingly written with 6th edition in mind, and they have force weapons that specifically bypass a Daemon's EW. So I'm certain EW will at least remain an option for Daemons.

GK force weapons do not bypass EW. Anything with EW remains immune to instant death caused by the force weapon weilder activating the weapon.

The thing that kills the Daemon (or Psyker) is Daemonbane, which doesn't cause instant death, it removes the model as a casualty.

I'm pretty sure that's exactly what I said. The Force Weapon kills the daemon with no concern for EW.

I'm pretty sure that's not exactly what you said. I may be what you meant but it sounds like you're saying that GK force weapons ignore EW in Daemons which they do not. The force weapon component of the Nemesis weapons interacts with EW in all the normal ways, meaning it has no effect. It's the Daemonbane part that kills the Daemon.

I realize that might be what you're trying to say but you're (still) trying to get your point across in an unclear manner. It may also be me being pedantic, but I thought I'd mention the difference because I've fought numerous GK players that insisted that if they got a wound on a multi-wound Daemon with a Nemesis Force Weapon they could kill it outright with an activation of that weapon. I've had to make them read their own codex to show them the difference.

Experiment 626 wrote:
Imagine Bloodcrushers for example suddenly becoming non-EW & only Ld7 or 8 vs Daemonbane weapons?! Yep, won't even bother playing those games anymore it'd be so pointless.

Why would anyone care about Daemonbane if Daemons didn't have EW? If multi-W Daemon doesn't have EW, GK player always gains more by activating Force Weapons than he would by using Hammerhand & Daemonbane. Especially when do take into account that because of wound allocation rules, Daemonbane would at best give you single extra wound per CC phase. If you failed the LD check. And you think that would make playing game pointless?

Daemonbane is extremely in-effective as far as special rules are concerned, because of following reasons: 1) You make the test only once per phase, no matter how many wounds you got 2) Chance of failing test is ~8% 3) You do the test at the end of the phase.

 undertow wrote:

reaper with no name wrote:

 undertow wrote:

reaper with no name wrote:
GKs were seemingly written with 6th edition in mind, and they have force weapons that specifically bypass a Daemon's EW. So I'm certain EW will at least remain an option for Daemons.

GK force weapons do not bypass EW. Anything with EW remains immune to instant death caused by the force weapon weilder activating the weapon.

The thing that kills the Daemon (or Psyker) is Daemonbane, which doesn't cause instant death, it removes the model as a casualty.

I'm pretty sure that's exactly what I said. The Force Weapon kills the daemon with no concern for EW.

I'm pretty sure that's not exactly what you said. I may be what you meant but it sounds like you're saying that GK force weapons ignore EW in Daemons which they do not. The force weapon component of the Nemesis weapons interacts with EW in all the normal ways, meaning it has no effect. It's the Daemonbane part that kills the Daemon.

I realize that might be what you're trying to say but you're (still) trying to get your point across in an unclear manner. It may also be me being pedantic, but I thought I'd mention the difference because I've fought numerous GK players that insisted that if they got a wound on a multi-wound Daemon with a Nemesis Force Weapon they could kill it outright with an activation of that weapon. I've had to make them read their own codex to show them the difference.

Let's just agree that my phrasing was terrible and move on.

Experiment 626 wrote:

 Jackmojo wrote:
I'd be happy to see EW leave Daemons (and Daemonbane go away since its was simply a kludgy work around for the fact that they gave Daemons immunity to a weapon that had been written in the fluff as being better at killing them then most things).

Jack

Losing EW while Grey Knights get to keep Daemonbane would be utterly pants. Especially since I'd also wager that we won't be keeping army-wide Ld10, but rather following more along the likes of Fantasy where units have differing Ld scores.

Imagine Bloodcrushers for example suddenly becoming non-EW & only Ld7 or 8 vs Daemonbane weapons?! Yep, won't even bother playing those games anymore it'd be so pointless.

If Daemons lost Eternal Warrior, then Daemonbane becomes irrelevant. Bloodcrushers being non-EW vs ANY force weapons would suck. Daemonbane would only come into play if the GK player attempted to activate his force weapons and failed.

 Kaldor wrote:

Experiment 626 wrote:

 Jackmojo wrote:
I'd be happy to see EW leave Daemons (and Daemonbane go away since its was simply a kludgy work around for the fact that they gave Daemons immunity to a weapon that had been written in the fluff as being better at killing them then most things).

Jack

Losing EW while Grey Knights get to keep Daemonbane would be utterly pants. Especially since I'd also wager that we won't be keeping army-wide Ld10, but rather following more along the likes of Fantasy where units have differing Ld scores.

Imagine Bloodcrushers for example suddenly becoming non-EW & only Ld7 or 8 vs Daemonbane weapons?! Yep, won't even bother playing those games anymore it'd be so pointless.

If Daemons lost Eternal Warrior, then Daemonbane becomes irrelevant. Bloodcrushers being non-EW vs ANY force weapons would suck. Daemonbane would only come into play if the GK player attempted to activate his force weapons and failed.

Losing EW means you wouldn't nessessarily need to activate those Force Weapons, and could instead go for the likes of Hammerhand for the +1S and thus wound those 'Crushers on a 4+, while still getting a shot at a 'remove from play' ability that is basically 'free'.

Daemonbane would then become yet another needless bonus that GK's get and be simply one more kick in the teeth you don't need to trash Daemons. Especially in challenges, it's basically giving the GK player their cake & icecream and letting them eat it, while the poor Daemon player just gets to watch their model/s die.

Experiment 626 wrote:

Losing EW means you wouldn't nessessarily need to activate those Force Weapons, and could instead go for the likes of Hammerhand for the +1S and thus wound those 'Crushers on a 4+, while still getting a shot at a 'remove from play' ability that is basically 'free'.

If any GK player would be stupid enough to do that, you should be extremely thankful for the Daemonbane rule. Have you ever actually read what the Daemonbane rule really does? Considering the scenarios you're putting, it looks like you haven't.

The reasons why no smart GK player will ever use HH instead of activating Force Weapons when fighting multi-W opponents is three-fold:
1) At best, HH will double the wounds caused. This only happens when fighting T6 enemies. Against any other enemy HH will not be as effective. Activating Force Weapons will at least double the wounds caused. In this case, HH will give 1.5x wounds and Force will give 2x wounds. Why would any smart GK player choose the first one?

2) Daemonbane only works at the end of the phase. This, combined with Wound allocation rules means that generally there will be either zero or one Bloodcrusher that has been wounded by the end of the Assault phase. So if Daemonbane works, it gives GK player extra wound on average every second CC phase. Precision strikes are too rare to make a difference, and trying to use them to maximize Daemonbane will bite GK player in the ass 92% of time.

3) Daemonbane requires the Daemon player to actually fail at LD10 check. This happens seldom, especially it is max 1 check per Assault Phase.
#2 and #3 combined means that even if Crushers were LD7, as a daemon player Daemonbane would cause you on average 0.21 unsaved wounds per Assault phase. With LD10, it is 0.04 wounds.

Lets do two scenarios: GK have inflicted 14 hits on unit of Bloodcrushers:
Using forceweapons, GK inflict 3.11 unsaved wounds, which translates to 3.11 dead bloodcrushers
Using HH, GK inflict 4.66 unsaved wounds, which translates to 2.33 dead bloodcrushers, which goes to ~ 2.37 is around after daemonbane (LD10) or ~2.54 if they had LD7 instead of LD10.
More casualities you inflict, the better Force becomes in relation.

Experiment 626 wrote:
Daemonbane would then become yet another needless bonus that GK's get [snip]

You're correct about it being needless. Because only time you'd ever see it in game is if the GK player failed their LD check to activate force weapons and Daemon player failed their LD check. Chances of this happening is less than one percent. Considering that your chances of failing get single succesful 5+ save against 12 wounds is in the same ballpark, something that would lose you two extra Bloodcrushers...

Again let me put it this way: If Daemons lose EW, it's Force you should be worried about. Daemonbane will practically be non-issue because chances are you will only lose model to it every 50-100 games.

Daemonbane is only useful against multi-wound daemon models.

My guess is that Greater Daemons wil keep EW or be able to purchase it.

The multi-wound lesser daemons will lose EW and have no way to purchase it.