Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

So with more solid rumors of a new Daemon codex hitting in Febuary, and the fact that the new CSM Daemon Prince no longer has the Eternal Warrior rule since it follows the basic BRB 'Daemon' rule, what does Dakka think of the likelyhood of Chaos Daemons following suit?

Even as a Daemon player, I'm not overly crushed at the thought of possibly, (even likely), losing out on army-wide EW for the most part.
Now I think that our Greater Daemons - or at the very least the named Greaters, still deserve to keep EW. (they ARE freaking Greater Daemons afterall and they should be amongst the scariest mo-fo's in the game anyone could face!)

However, losing the army wide EW would honestly balance out the new Flamers & Screamers, which let's face it, right now are pretty damn broken. Just look at the whining from those who've been subjected to facing 18+ Flamers + Screamers at one time! I know I'd enjoy such a game about as much I'd enjoy playing against any other abusvie & boring as feth spam list.
But if come the new codex, you can insta-gib them with S8+, it'll tone them down and make their pts costs seem more reasonable imho.
For example, Flamers would still be an absolute b to try and assault with most units, but really nasty things like Nobs or Hammernators would finally become a solid counter since they could weather the overwatch and hit back with plenty of S8 to avoid being bogged down for the entire game!
Likewise, Screamers would become a terrifying counter to 2+ saves in general, but they'd have to be used a bit more intelligently since those Hammernators or Meganobz would pound them silly.

And considering that at least half of our current multi-wound units/models have T5 or better, I'm not seeing this possible loss of EW as a serious nerf. T5 Bloodcrushers for example could still effectively smash most units - even non-deathstar terminator units!

Yeah, losing EW prob wont matter for most things in the codex.

I mean why would you even need it on half the army if they are 1W?

Would be nice if greater daemons keep it though.

Losing army-wide EW seems like a given. It's just too ridiculous when Daemons bring so many 2-wound models to the table. I expect we'll see a lot of units lose Fearless as well (and probably LD reductions across the board) -- at least, that's what the new CSM codex leads me to believe.

But even if Daemons lost all of that, I think you're right that it wouldn't be a huge nerf. IMO, Flamers and Screamers would still be competitively priced if they were non-EW, LD9/non-Fearless. So, I wouldn't be surprised if they took a further hit (e.g. Breath of Chaos becomes AP3, Warp Jaws only work on the charge). Of course, Beasts, Flesh Hounds, and Furies would then emerge as Daemons' top-tier units, so start stocking up now.

Losing EW/Fearless would be worst of all for our MC's. That doesn't seem outside of the realm of possibility either. I mean, Daemon Princes lost EW, so who's to say Greater Daemons won't? I've always felt terrible watching a 6W TMC die to a single Force Sword wound, but now I wouldn't be surprised if we're all in that boat when the new codex comes around.

I agree it should be on stuff like the greaters and perhaps the princes still, but it's not really that much of a fuss on some things like horrors or daemonettes.

Do agree they should lose EW, putting a melta gun or such on them and them taking the wound and still having one left (multi wounds units of course) but having a multi wound character dying to the same melta gun as it doubles them out is pretty harsh. Even then flamers will still be pretty damn powerful for their points cost!

I can understand the argument for losing army-wide EW, but I don't agree with it. However, I think losing Fearless on the whole army isn't going to happen. I would be sad if either happened. A long time ago I played Eldar, and I still remember the first time I ever lost an IC to Instant Death (fighting a Daemon Prince), army-wide EW is one of the reasons I play Daemons.

Another thing I love about Daemons are the Monstrous Creatures. Losing EW on my very expensive MCs would really dampen my enthusiasm for this army.

I tend not to spam Flamers. I own over 20 but generally run 12 or so in groups of four, as I found that more wasn't much fun for my opponents, and is generally how many I ran before the WD update. So losing EW here wouldn't bother me so much.

The current problem is flamers and screamers, I suspect them to be nerfed with the new book.

As for losing the EW, it doesn't make sense, as it's a rule coming from the codex, not the demon rule in the rulebook.

Expect some khorne loving in the new codex.

Experiment 626 wrote:
So with more solid rumors of a new Daemon codex hitting in Febuary, and the fact that the new CSM Daemon Prince no longer has the Eternal Warrior rule since it follows the basic BRB 'Daemon' rule, what does Dakka think of the likelyhood of Chaos Daemons following suit?

Well all of the new rumors are pointing to another WD update, not a codex. You would think that I'm kidding, but I'm really really not. With that in mind, i honestly don't think that daemons will lose EW. Maybe adding another unit to the codex, maybe update another two or three, but most likely they will not lose EW.

Since when has GW ever seen something that they just released that is too OP and just said "let's make them less OP." I don't think that would fly, as they would lose massive sales. And come on, it's GW...


Automatically Appended Next Post:
If you think I'm kidding about the WD update, here is the latest rumor on Daemons from the rumor site Faeit 212:

http://natfka.blogspot.com/2012/10/greater-daemons-and-furies.html

As long as the Greater Daemons keep it im fine with the rest of the book losing the EW rule. The only thing in my lists that it would effect is fiends. Not that big a deal really. I look forward to the new daemon book and with it being only a few months out I plan on saving a bit of cash from christmas for them.

thisisnotpancho wrote:

Well all of the new rumors are pointing to another WD update, not a codex. You would think that I'm kidding, but I'm really really not. With that in mind, i honestly don't think that daemons will lose EW. Maybe adding another unit to the codex, maybe update another two or three, but most likely they will not lose EW.

Since when has GW ever seen something that they just released that is too OP and just said "let's make them less OP." I don't think that would fly, as they would lose massive sales. And come on, it's GW...


Automatically Appended Next Post:
If you think I'm kidding about the WD update, here is the latest rumor on Daemons from the rumor site Faeit 212:

http://natfka.blogspot.com/2012/10/greater-daemons-and-furies.html

Hastings has been screaming lately that a Daemons Codex & Army Book is on it's way and let's face it, even the great Pire-man bows to Hastings' info! If Hastings says a codex/army book is coming, then I think it's pretty safe to believe it's true!

And GW has admited that things have been OP and need to be addressed; 7th ed Daemons & recently, they admited that GK's didn't go so well due to the huge community uproar regarding their abilities.
So yes, I do expect GW to constantly nerf the really good things and buff the really bad things in order to get us to constantly update & change our collections!


As for our Breath of Chaos becoming ap3? Fat chance of that, since CSM's kept it as an ap2 Tzeentch power. Besides, what the hell else are we supposed to use to kill 2+ saves at range? Single shot Bolts of Tzeentch that are typically only BS4 or lesss and BS3 single-shots from Soulgrinders?! Breath is about the only reliable ranged attack we have to deal with high armour units. We need to keep it in order to even be playable against 2+ save armies like Deathwing, Grey Knights termiewings, Loganwing & Sang Guard armies...

Right now I find that most of my opponents either;
a) don't give a rat's fart about EW on the big guys and T5 units, unless they play GK's at which point they tend to whine about how useless their anti-daemonic force weapons are.
b) get 'uber peeved at how insanely resiliant our T4 units like Flamers, Screamers & Fiends are.

Of corse, if we do lose Eternal Warrior, I'd expect the pts costs of our gribblies to pretty much drop right across the board outside of say Bloodcrushers who are still fantastic value for their current cost - especially if they become true cavalry like the new CSM Juggernaughts!


What I really fear right now is how bad will the Fantasy nerfing be?!

Experiment 626 wrote:As for our Breath of Chaos becoming ap3? Fat chance of that, since CSM's kept it as an ap2 Tzeentch power. Besides, what the hell else are we supposed to use to kill 2+ saves at range? Single shot Bolts of Tzeentch that are typically only BS4 or lesss and BS3 single-shots from Soulgrinders?! Breath is about the only reliable ranged attack we have to deal with high armour units. We need to keep it in order to even be playable against 2+ save armies like Deathwing, Grey Knights termiewings, Loganwing & Sang Guard armies...

Why should Daemons need AP2 ranged attacks when we get AP2 out our ears in CC? Most armies don't have much AP2-shooting or AP2 in CC and still deal with Terminators fine.

Anyway, I'm not saying Breath will necessarily go down to AP3, it's just one of an infinitude of potential nerfs Flamers could get. It could be a point increase, changes to Breath, decreasing max unit size, who knows. But I doubt GW will be so generous to only remove EW.

 whigwam wrote:

Experiment 626 wrote:As for our Breath of Chaos becoming ap3? Fat chance of that, since CSM's kept it as an ap2 Tzeentch power. Besides, what the hell else are we supposed to use to kill 2+ saves at range? Single shot Bolts of Tzeentch that are typically only BS4 or lesss and BS3 single-shots from Soulgrinders?! Breath is about the only reliable ranged attack we have to deal with high armour units. We need to keep it in order to even be playable against 2+ save armies like Deathwing, Grey Knights termiewings, Loganwing & Sang Guard armies...

Why should Daemons need AP2 ranged attacks when we get AP2 out our ears in CC? Most armies don't have much AP2-shooting or AP2 in CC and still deal with Terminators fine.

Anyway, I'm not saying Breath will necessarily go down to AP3, it's just one of an infinitude of potential nerfs Flamers could get. It could be a point increase, changes to Breath, decreasing max unit size, who knows. But I doubt GW will be so generous to only remove EW.

AP2 out of our ears in CC? We only get it from MCs now in CC, that's not exactly coming out of our ears. And some of those armies that don't have a lot of AP2 shooting and still deal with terminators do so with a much higher volume of fire than Daemons can put out.

Did you forget about Screamers, Fiends, Daemonettes, and Seekers?

 undertow wrote:

 whigwam wrote:

Experiment 626 wrote:As for our Breath of Chaos becoming ap3? Fat chance of that, since CSM's kept it as an ap2 Tzeentch power. Besides, what the hell else are we supposed to use to kill 2+ saves at range? Single shot Bolts of Tzeentch that are typically only BS4 or lesss and BS3 single-shots from Soulgrinders?! Breath is about the only reliable ranged attack we have to deal with high armour units. We need to keep it in order to even be playable against 2+ save armies like Deathwing, Grey Knights termiewings, Loganwing & Sang Guard armies...

Why should Daemons need AP2 ranged attacks when we get AP2 out our ears in CC? Most armies don't have much AP2-shooting or AP2 in CC and still deal with Terminators fine.

Anyway, I'm not saying Breath will necessarily go down to AP3, it's just one of an infinitude of potential nerfs Flamers could get. It could be a point increase, changes to Breath, decreasing max unit size, who knows. But I doubt GW will be so generous to only remove EW.

AP2 out of our ears in CC? We only get it from MCs now in CC, that's not exactly coming out of our ears. And some of those armies that don't have a lot of AP2 shooting and still deal with terminators do so with a much higher volume of fire than Daemons can put out.

Oooo, oooo, I think he also means the Rending ability Slaanesh Daemons have. You know, on a 6+ to wound roll, they ignore all armor. As opposed to Plasma guns, plasma pistols, lascannons, vindicators (and all those backed by either tanks or 3+ armor, not just a 5++).

Honestly, I think the Daemon codex is great how it is, except that they need to be able to deep strike reliably onto CSM icons (of the same god-marking) and that you get to choose which half comes in reliably first turn. That's really all. Maybe a few more goodies on non-named greater daemons.

The majority of MCs should have EW with Enfeeble now in the game. T6 was great protection against ID before 6e most of the time but with enfeeble any T6 model can still be IDd :-/

My guess is that it will be a purchasable option. Something like Daemonic Gift: Ancient. This Daemon has existed for countless Aeons and survived countless battles in its masters name. The Daemon gains Eternal Warrior.

I dont see daemons losing the fear rule, it barely does anything as is so theres no point taking it from them.

 Grey Templar wrote:
My guess is that it will be a purchasable option. Something like Daemonic Gift: Ancient. This Daemon has existed for countless Aeons and survived countless battles in its masters name. The Daemon gains Eternal Warrior.

An upgrade for EW would be a cool idea.

Yeah, Fear ain't going away. Esepcially since the BRB Daemon rule gives you. wait for it... Fear!

As long as the points go down, I am happy.

Chaos Daemons is a Codex that screams for lots of small, inexpensive troops and some big, bad guys who can dish out a lot of damage. It's somewhere in the middle in it's current form, with basic troops costing too much compared to what they can do, and HQ options that possess some really outstanding flaws and don't have a 'Chaosy' feel at all times.

It would be better to have a lot more variance.

 whigwam wrote:
Did you forget about Screamers, Fiends, Daemonettes, and Seekers?

Yeah, I forgot about Screamers, but I'm not sure if rending attacks on some models counts as CC out of our ears.

So long as the big one's keep it, I'm fine with it honestly, unlike Tyranids our 2 wounds have invulnerable saves.

 Grey Templar wrote:
Yeah, Fear ain't going away. Esepcially since the BRB Daemon rule gives you. wait for it... Fear!

Don't knock Fear as utterly useless!

In a recent game I had, my Ork opponent failed 3 Fear tests in a row which allowed my Flamers to beat-up his last couple of Boyz, Power Klaw Nob & Old Zogwarts due to my overwatch to-wound rolls failing miserably. Tzeentch units hitting things on 3's is well worth a good laugh!
The fact that it happens every single assault phase helps make it a rather annoying trait that will work in your favour at least once or twice a game.

Sure it's pointless against half the armies in the game, but there are occationally units out there that aren't Space Marines!

I agree its not useless(never claimed it was)

Its not great either.

its just something that happens once in a blue moon that can be devestating.

If they lose EW but gain more AP2 and AP3 ranged powers, I'll take the trade.

I just hope that we're compensated decently if we do lose out on EW...

For example, a better deployment where we pick which half we want coming down, and some actual fething defenses & counters to GK's!

Losing Eternal Warrior for example will make games vs GK's even less fun than they are right now, since they'll now have a double shot at insta-pooching all our multi-wound models. Once via activated force weapons, and again via Daemonbane should they fail their psychic test/use a different power.

Demon codex rumors is news to me... where did you hear this? Surprised to think they would what with the white dwarf hot fix not to long ago.

 Big Mek Wurrzog wrote:
Demon codex rumors is news to me... where did you hear this? Surprised to think they would what with the white dwarf hot fix not to long ago.

Hastings says new Daemon books in Febuary. And Hastings is almost never wrong, so when he says something's happening, odds are, it's going to happen!

And sure, while the WD update did help us out a bit, consider we're still stuck with;
a) having a 33.3% chance of getting boned right off the bat due to our screwy deployment rules.

b) being a primarily assault army in a shooty edition, with only limited access to our own shooty units. (Tzeentch primarily)

c) No psychic defenses.

d) Grey Knights getting a disgusting amount of essencially 'free' bonuses vs us. Sure they're Daemonhunters and all, but there really needs to be some reason for us Daemon players to actually take our models out of the case and put them on the table!
Right now, it's beyond an uphill battle most of the time unless we know ahead of time what the GK player is bringing so we can tailor against it...

 Grey Templar wrote:
Yeah, Fear ain't going away. Esepcially since the BRB Daemon rule gives you. wait for it... Fear!

the most useless rule in the book, wait there is soulblaze and crusader. NVM

 Exergy wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
Yeah, Fear ain't going away. Esepcially since the BRB Daemon rule gives you. wait for it... Fear!

the most useless rule in the book, wait there is soulblaze and crusader. NVM

I can see how fear is a bit on the crap side when compared to other things, but how is crusader and soulblaze bad? Crusader helps units get places faster, for example objectives, and soulblaze makes a unit eat free d3 bolter rounds 50% of the time. It's not like eating a lasconnon shot and it won't take fliers out of the sky, but it can still help knock out a model here in there. When shooting at things like burnaboys or flamers, it's pretty potentially useful.

GKs were seemingly written with 6th edition in mind, and they have force weapons that specifically bypass a Daemon's EW. So I'm certain EW will at least remain an option for Daemons.