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Loyalist chapters have 5 codices. Would you like to see the four 'main' gods of chaos having a codex each encompassing their renegade marines and daemons? Why? Why Not? Additionally I'll make the point that the allies rules would be updated allowing all 4 to ally plus a 5th codex containing generic and undivided units. I assumed people would figure I meant they would be able to ally as it is obviously pretty crap if they couldn't.

Also if this was done what units would you like to see appear in each codex?

No. There aren't enough units to make individual codexes for each faction. Plus, while chaos tends to be a somewhat self-centered army, combinations and alliance are what should empower chaos.

There would be alot of Copy-paste between the codices, something that the loyalist codices don't have.

It would also leave out undivided. Or make an undivided codex really boring.



You would have Chaos Lords and Sorcerors be exactly the same except for the addition of a mark. Same equipment(excluding mark specific equipment)

Chaos Marines would be the same, except for mark.

All would have Obliterators, Mutilators, Mauler and Forgefiends, Helldrakes, Defilers, Bikes, Raptors, Warp Talons, Landraiders, predators, vindicators, rhinos...


utterly pointless.

 SoloFalcon1138 wrote:
No. There aren't enough units to make individual codexes for each faction. Plus, while chaos tends to be a somewhat self-centered army, combinations and alliance are what should empower chaos.

Yes well my entire point is that they should have a codex each BECAUSE there arent enough units for each faction. I completely disagree that combinations and alliance are what should empower a chaos army- many of the greatest battles in the fluff involved armies tainted by but one of the gods- they should as legions be able to hold their own on the game board especially considering mere chapters can.

No for several reasons. As mentioned, one of the strengths of the Chaos codices is their ability to blend the effects of multiple gods together for great effect, and focusing in on one god per book would diminish that ability to combine abilities. Additionally, you couldn't get rid of the core chaos books since there are many people who run undivided chaos marines or daemons. Additionally, the problem isn't that chaos has too few books, its that loyalists have too many, and if it wasn't for the fact that it would upset old players endlessly I think that several SM codices could be rolled into the core book (the most eligible are DA, the least eligible are either BT or GK).

Yeah, this would just make things worse. If you do this yes you may have stronger options for a mono-God list, maybe with some secondary God allies thrown in, but it completely ruins the idea of Chaos Undivided.

 Grey Templar wrote:
There would be alot of Copy-paste between the codices, something that the loyalist codices don't have.

You're kidding right? Think about how many things are in all the SM codexes... Captains, dreadnoughts, landspeeders, bikes, assault marines, tacticals, vindicators, razorbacks, rhino's, predators, drop pods etc etc etc

There's enough fluff background for chaos to be expanded upon codex-wise
The only reason there are some unique models for loyalist marines is exactly because they wanted more codexes and models. Before the BA codex there was no such thing as sanguinary guards or baal predators (at least in the rules, dunno about the fluff). So saying that there aren't enough unique units for each chaos god to have a codex is nonsense imho

Not sure 1 codex fore ach god would work though... There would need to be more allies rules i guess, which kind of negates the effect of different codexes... They could simply add more god-specific entries to the general codex if you ask me, which would take away the need for a god-specific codex but allow you to build better themed armies

 Grey Templar wrote:
There would be alot of Copy-paste between the codices, something that the loyalist codices don't have.

It would also leave out undivided. Or make an undivided codex really boring.



You would have Chaos Lords and Sorcerors be exactly the same except for the addition of a mark. Same equipment(excluding mark specific equipment)

Chaos Marines would be the same, except for mark.

All would have Obliterators, Mutilators, Mauler and Forgefiends, Helldrakes, Defilers, Bikes, Raptors, Warp Talons, Landraiders, predators, vindicators, rhinos...


utterly pointless.

Why are any of the boundaries you have placed on such an endeavour necessary at all. Think outside the little box gw has got you used to with csm! Why should there be 'copy and paste'? surely having a codex each is designed to allow room for more varied units per mark? Why shouldn't there be a codex csm much more like coodex sm to cater for undivided and the generic shared units? Why should that codex be boring if you could ally with all 4 mark codices? As for these comments regarding units that would be "the same except for the addition of a mark", "same equipment" it is exactly these things that I am suggesting a codex each would do away with in favour of more variance between csm units. Just ideas guys just ideas

I don't like that loyalist chapters have 5 different codexes, I think a better model is to release a main codex and then a chapter codex, that outlines a list of modifications to the main codex for each chapter, and I think this is the best model for chaos as well.

This is similar to how Games Workshop did craftworld eldar.

This would probably be better for the game balance wise, but I'm guessing they don't do it because it doesn't make as much money as 5 different codex updates. On the other hand, doing this also neglects the long term stability of the game. Lowering the focus on the imperium would allow 40k to become more dynamic and probably more fun for players. I think these days players are also getting increasingly frustrated with Games Workshop's haphazard balancing and sparse updating, which is complicated by having so many codexes when less would suffice.

Also Falcon, I disagree that chaos needs to be all in one book to support alliances. I think chaos is more divided that the different loyalist chapters. They really only all work together during large events, and even if you split them into separate armies, you could still ally them through the ally matrix like the imperial factions. I personally hate the design of chaos daemons and chaos space marines, where it is considered ok for all of the units from one god to be mediocre because players can "choose" to take Nurgle units instead (or whichever other god is currently best). This forces players to make a choice between playing the game how they want to play it, and fielding a competitive army. It just honestly isn't fluffy to field armies full of units from all the different gods, and most players who aren't TFG will limit their choices based on this. Pretty much no other army suffers from this. There is almost no way to create an imperial guard, loyalist, tyranid, tau, eldar, orc, or necron force that would be considered as blatantly unfluffy as a chaos list including units from opposing gods.

RegalPhantom wrote:
No for several reasons. As mentioned, one of the strengths of the Chaos codices is their ability to blend the effects of multiple gods together for great effect, and focusing in on one god per book would diminish that ability to combine abilities. Additionally, you couldn't get rid of the core chaos books since there are many people who run undivided chaos marines or daemons. Additionally, the problem isn't that chaos has too few books, its that loyalists have too many, and if it wasn't for the fact that it would upset old players endlessly I think that several SM codices could be rolled into the core book (the most eligible are DA, the least eligible are either BT or GK).

I think I mighn't have expressed what I meant well enough. Read my amended initial entry under the subject line regarding all of what you said which are of course valid points. I think you missed sw as being least eligible for 'core book'.

While its not a terrible idea, it would require a bit more fleshing out of each of the different chaos gods, and to be honest, that would just slow down the release schedule even more. Another stumbling block is how they have written the Chaos Space Marines to begin with. Most of the legions specific to one god have dissolved into smaller and smaller warbands that just join up with other warbands from time to time (or fight each other). Had GW left the traiter legions largely intact, there would be more to work with.

 Requiem wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
There would be alot of Copy-paste between the codices, something that the loyalist codices don't have.

You're kidding right? Think about how many things are in all the SM codexes... Captains, dreadnoughts, landspeeders, bikes, assault marines, tacticals, vindicators, razorbacks, rhino's, predators, drop pods etc etc etc

There's enough fluff background for chaos to be expanded upon codex-wise
The only reason there are some unique models for loyalist marines is exactly because they wanted more codexes and models. Before the BA codex there was no such thing as sanguinary guards or baal predators (at least in the rules, dunno about the fluff). So saying that there aren't enough unique units for each chaos god to have a codex is nonsense imho

Not sure 1 codex fore ach god would work though... There would need to be more allies rules i guess, which kind of negates the effect of different codexes... They could simply add more god-specific entries to the general codex if you ask me, which would take away the need for a god-specific codex but allow you to build better themed armies

Yeah cramming more rules in the existing codex would also be acceptable but would probably suffer from poor layout and lack of all-important fluff to go with the new units due to size restrictions on the codex. I'd still take that over what there is now though. I dont see why more allies rules would negate the effect of different codexes- i mean you could still can build a mashed up un-fluffy army if you wanted to but you could also field an interesting, fun, varied, and competitive 1 god army too which you never have been able to do before imo. If a chapter can stand alone on a game board surely a legion(or whats left of it) that generally fights alone anyway should be able to as well?

I have no clue why people are saying there would be far more copy/pasta, when thats all the Loyalists are except for one or two troops.

The reality is Chaos Itself would be far more different than a loyalists book, new specific god models (New varieties of daemons, come on now we've had the same since 2nd!) We'd have large, giant MC's of khorne, powerful new daemons that we could expand outword..

New Normal troops, how about some emporers children who have dedicated their life to swords skills, thus making them able to rend in melee combat and dance around ala hit and run? Nurgle models that have devoted to spreading their plague through missles and biothrowers? Khorne beserkers who have invented new vehicles in order to get to the bloodlust faster? (Or even riding defilers on the side)

Seriously, the thought of having an emporers children codex and having the ability to make a full noise marine list would be incredible. Heck, even an undivided would have all the fancy vehicles of the Dark Mechanicus, Undivided beings, and Word Bearers fanaticism .

The fact people can accept the copy/pasta of marines, but not accept something that has far more potential..It's so hilariously foolish.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:
I have no clue why people are saying there would be far more copy/pasta, when thats all the Loyalists are except for one or two troops.

The reality is Chaos Itself would be far more different than a loyalists book, new specific god models (New varieties of daemons, come on now we've had the same since 2nd!)

New Normal troops, how about some emporers children who have dedicated their life to swords skills, thus making them able to rend in melee combat and dance around ala hit and run? Nurgle models that have devoted to spreading their plague through missles and biothrowers?

Seriously, the thought of having an emporers children codex and having the ability to make a full noise marine list would be incredible.

Exactly- they are not governed by things such as codex organisation, instead they are ruled by motivations that are at base level as different as chalk and cheese.


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 ClassicCarraway wrote:
While its not a terrible idea, it would require a bit more fleshing out of each of the different chaos gods, and to be honest, that would just slow down the release schedule even more. Another stumbling block is how they have written the Chaos Space Marines to begin with. Most of the legions specific to one god have dissolved into smaller and smaller warbands that just join up with other warbands from time to time (or fight each other). Had GW left the traiter legions largely intact, there would be more to work with.

I don't care for their potential problems with their release schedule- they can just employ more people to get it done on time with the insane amounts of profit they make.

Abhorash15000 wrote:
Loyalist chapters have 5 codices. Would you like to see the four 'main' gods of chaos having a codex each encompassing their renegade marines and daemons? Why? Why Not?

I think if I was GW I would. More books to sell. I still think they did it best with "The lost and the Damned" and "Slaves to Darkness books". Those books were great, they should do the same thing this time around. The books would not need to be as large as before because those books covered 40k, WHFB, WHFRP and their own little Warbands game.

Chaos just seams so much more generic than it used to. Fighting the forces of the different gods definitely was more interesting when each had its own flavor. Now it just seams people run the same army taking the best units from each god, which should still be an option for an undivided force, (with some animosity rules for the ones that hate each other).

No I wouldn't.

1. That would leave the non-aligned Legions in the cold.
2. It'd mean 4-5 years to get all 4 books out.
3. It'd mean a decade+ before all of your armies were updated.

So no. Never.

DEAR GOD NO

At the rate codices are updated we don't need more Codices at all. Hell, I'd be happy if they combined some of the codices into bigger ones so we could get a faster rotation.

Grey Templar wrote:There would be alot of Copy-paste between the codices, something that the loyalist codices don't have.

Whut. Every Marine Codex ever has that intro about wah wah Horus Heresy and the creation of Space Marines. Chapter Organisation is 50% copypasta, as are the army lists at the back.
I wouldn't see CSM Codices being that different, tbh. GW's writers would simply do what they already did as the Grey Knights and the Black Templars emigrated out of the Vanilla 'dex: expand on the bits that were already mentioned somewhere.

Still opposed to the whole idea, simply because I am also opposed to so many full-fledged Marine 'dexes and their effect on the release schedule already.

I would support WD "Minidexes" for the various unique Marine Chapters, CSM Legions, Guard regiments, Ork warbands etc that work like expansions to their respective "vanilla" books, though.

 Lynata wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:
I would support WD "Minidexes" for the various unique Marine Chapters, CSM Legions, Guard regiments, Ork warbands etc that work like expansions to their respective "vanilla" books, though.

Except then you have to buy that lame magazine and if you miss it you'll be hard pressed to get a legal copy of a Minidex. Why not PDFs on their website like any sensible modern company would do nowdays?

60mm wrote:Except then you have to buy that lame magazine and if you miss it you'll be hard pressed to get a legal copy of a Minidex. Why not PDFs on their website like any sensible modern company would do nowdays?

That's something I would suggest in addition, though I have a feeling GW shies away from such PDFs because they think they can't make any money of it.
Then again, considering it's a miniature company (for which even a free Codex would work like advertisement) and that they actually did release lots of free stuff as PDFs on their website before, including things such as the Codex Catachans ...

I was mainly proposing the WD solution because it (a) gives people something to hold in their hands and (b) would be a large step to "un-lame" it. The magazine used to be cool. It could be again, if it gets more content.
Put things like the Index Astartes articles and other fluff back in. Add kitbash advice. Bring back the optional rules, with these "minidexes" as a prime example. And then offer these rules as a free PDF on the website a couple months later.

1. That would leave the non-aligned Legions in the cold.

With the gods taken from the main book, the undivided would expand to simply having the rest at a better chance of getting their things in, considering now they have to fight the god specific legions (Kharn, Lucius, Fabius bile, Typhus, Ahriman) with a higher chance for each of the others to get their own.

You'd see the removal of the cult troops, with something needing to take their place.

The rest make sense though.

No, it would clog up the release schedule for a year. We have FFG for this idea.

I'd like to see CSM and Daemons rolled back into the same book, but 1 book for each of the Gods + Undivided? Not sure how that would work. Not to mention that it would ruin the synergy of the Chaos armies - want to run Nurgle and Tzeentch in one list? You can totally do that. Want to run exclusively Khorne? Go for it. Splitting them up would actually hurt Chaos lists more than anything.

As for loyalist Codices... BT and DA are both arguably simple to fold into the SM Codex as they basically are just additional special characters, Force Org swaps and weapon options. Simple. SW and GK (and BA too probably) have enough substantial differences that it'd be a major headache to fold them into C:SM, so I think they warrant their own Dexes (although hopefully they don't update them again until late 7th or 8th edition and let the other armies get their fair shot at things).

People say that all the Marines should be folded into one Codex and that it would be quite simple - yeah right. Trust me, I've been working on an Inquisiton Codex that folds GK, Sisters and Deathwatch into one book and it has been a bit of a mess, especially if you want to keep the army's flavour.

As for loyalist Codices... BT and DA are both arguably simple to fold into the SM Codex as they basically are just additional special characters, Force Org swaps and weapon options. Simple. SW and GK (and BA too probably) have enough substantial differences that it'd be a major headache to fold them into C:SM, so I think they warrant their own Dexes (although hopefully they don't update them again until late 7th or 8th edition and let the other armies get their fair shot at things).

You mean before 5th edition, when they were given substantial changes in order to change them up? Like how if BT and DA got a new dex, they'd be given a good number of new units that would make them substantially harder to fold into C:SM.

People say that all the Marines should be folded into one Codex and that it would be quite simple - yeah right. Trust me, I've been working on an Inquisiton Codex that folds GK, Sisters and Deathwatch into one book and it has been a bit of a mess, especially if you want to keep the army's flavour.

Take out Sisters than, they aren't an inquisition army for one thing.

In theory yes, but there are too many codices as it is and GW releases them too slowly. This would just make balance/updating even worse.

No. You don't play Gods in the game, you play legions and hordes.

I would prefer to see Codexes built around legions for CSMs, and a single Daemon Codex that offers more options. What they have now is too limiting.

i think there should be 4 codexes of the chaos marines one for vanilla (same as ultramarines) nergal slanesh and tzech only seems fair sense there a ton of space marine chapters out there. id also like to had love to see some codexes for diffrent factions in some of the xenos races

Grey Templar wrote:There would be alot of Copy-paste between the codices, something that the loyalist codices don't have.

utterly pointless.

SoloFalcon1138 wrote:No. There aren't enough units to make individual codexes for each faction.

3/10 trolling, at least you guys got a few replies out of it.

It could work, but it would have to be done in a particular way.

So, 1 'dex each god? Alright, to make an Undivided list (which many would want) there would be some units in each Codex that can be used combined with the others, eg basic CSM squads, lords, oblits etc.

Say that a player wants a Tzeentch/Slaanesh combo.

He/she likes CSMs, Oblits, Maulerfiends,Helldrakes and Tzeentch Lords as well as a bunch of mono-god units.

While the non-monogod units from each Codex can be used in conjunction with the other, many of the mono-god units cannot, however 'basic' mono-god units like Noise marines and Rubrics can be used.

If you don't understand, I'll see if I can explain better.

EDIT: Oh, and make then small Codices that all come out at the same time. Like, 30-50 pages, 200 pages for all 4? Seems legit.

It'd be great if they'd started that way but now it'd be a lot of work and messing around with people's armies to do it.