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Flesh & Iron features the imperial navy (water based).....

Its a good book despite the whole zou "plagiarism" thing

Wet navies are pretty much obsolete in the 40k universe, the existence of the Persepian Nautical Fleet in Flesh and Iron is an anomaly and a head scratcher given that a spacegoing vessel would fulfill the same exact role... from space... speaking of which, I got more of a Guns of Navarrone vibe than I did an Apocalypse Now! feeling... in fact I didnt see Apocalypse Now! in it at all, really the only parallel is the fact that they went upriver in boats... Apocalypse Now is about the characters development as he goes upriver rather than the journey up the river itself, whereas there really wasn't much character development that I could see in the book until they reached the gun.

And dont kid yourself its a terrible book filled with plot holes and faulty logic. The super cannon thing was built as a massive artillery piece to defend the only continent from what now? They had to send a regiment up river to try to destroy it for what reason exactly?? They couldnt use a space vessel to accomplish this task because?? They couldnt airlift the units to within striking distance of the anon because...?

Why use boats, when you have starships? What possible use would there be for a boat? Submarines, maybe. But not boats.

 Kaldor wrote:
Why use boats, when you have starships? What possible use would there be for a boat? Submarines, maybe. But not boats.

Troop deployment in an area with intact anti-air defenses? (remember, in 40k these reach out to 60k km, IIRC, and can shoot down battleships and SM battlebarges)

I remember the Soul Drinkers (Renegades) making a boat to sail across a literal sea of plague/disease. Besides that Ork subs are all I've heard of. Also neither of these are imperial

I've read the Vanilla Marines Codex, and it said that during the Assault on Black Reach, ork looters came out of a sub that came from the orks secret base, which Sgt. Telion tracked to their HQ. If the orks did indeed have underwater assets that rendered aerial assets useless, what would say the IG or Space Marines do?

 BaronIveagh wrote:

 Kaldor wrote:
Why use boats, when you have starships? What possible use would there be for a boat? Submarines, maybe. But not boats.

Troop deployment in an area with intact anti-air defenses? (remember, in 40k these reach out to 60k km, IIRC, and can shoot down battleships and SM battlebarges)

If the anti-air is so strong that you can't even move your ships into orbit, than having boats would be useless as well, since you wouldn't be able to land them.

You should also read Apostle's Creed from the Sabbat Worlds anthology.

The Chaos pilots use a mobile super submarine to launch attacks along a frozen ocean.

 BaronIveagh wrote:

 Kaldor wrote:
Why use boats, when you have starships? What possible use would there be for a boat? Submarines, maybe. But not boats.

Troop deployment in an area with intact anti-air defenses? (remember, in 40k these reach out to 60k km, IIRC, and can shoot down battleships and SM battlebarges)

If it can shoot down a battleship, it can sure as hell fire laterally and destroy a water-ship.

Besides, why not just deploy via orbital landing craft, flying low over the surface? This isn't like the real world where we need aircraft carriers to launch and resupply aircraft.

BlaxicanX wrote: If the anti-air is so strong that you can't even move your ships into orbit, than having boats would be useless as well, since you wouldn't be able to land them.

... the funny answer: line of sight. The only ones that can fire over the horizon are torpedo launchers, and those have to be hotwired and reprogrammed. (Something the mechanicus is loathe to do except in the direst of circumstances). If lances have line of sight, they're quite capable of killing titans (and for those of you who have them for your tabletops, they're AP 1 strength D weapons, according to the GW pdf).

Kaldor wrote:
If it can shoot down a battleship, it can sure as hell fire laterally and destroy a water-ship.

Besides, why not just deploy via orbital landing craft, flying low over the surface? This isn't like the real world where we need aircraft carriers to launch and resupply aircraft.

According to 40k fluff, you need an airfield or starship launch bays to launch and resupply aircraft. And, there is the small problem of the planet being in the way for anything further than the horizon. Only torpedoes can be fired over the horizon, as they an e reprogrammed for reentry.

there is an imperial submarine used in one of the BL blood angel novels, and it is chased by a Nid aquatic creature.

i can see some planets having a what is called a Brown water force mostly for patrolling against local problems.

 BaronIveagh wrote:

BlaxicanX wrote: If the anti-air is so strong that you can't even move your ships into orbit, than having boats would be useless as well, since you wouldn't be able to land them.

... the funny answer: line of sight. The only ones that can fire over the horizon are torpedo launchers, and those have to be hotwired and reprogrammed. (Something the mechanicus is loathe to do except in the direst of circumstances). If lances have line of sight, they're quite capable of killing titans (and for those of you who have them for your tabletops, they're AP 1 strength D weapons, according to the GW pdf).

That doesn't address what I said. If the anti-air is so thick that ships can't even park around the planet, how are you going to get your boats from space into the water?

BlaxicanX wrote:

 BaronIveagh wrote:

BlaxicanX wrote: If the anti-air is so strong that you can't even move your ships into orbit, than having boats would be useless as well, since you wouldn't be able to land them.

... the funny answer: line of sight. The only ones that can fire over the horizon are torpedo launchers, and those have to be hotwired and reprogrammed. (Something the mechanicus is loathe to do except in the direst of circumstances). If lances have line of sight, they're quite capable of killing titans (and for those of you who have them for your tabletops, they're AP 1 strength D weapons, according to the GW pdf).

That doesn't address what I said. If the anti-air is so thick that ships can't even park around the planet, how are you going to get your boats from space into the water?

Affecting a landing into relatively safe unoccupied space will be significantly easier than affecting a troop landing near defensive hard points.

In fact in a world with alarge ocean, it may be the best option, to land a wet navy as a base of operations and then an amphibious assault to get a beach head on land, along with your own aa and air support.

Airpower is not global generally and does take time to mobolise and deploy. Using that time to deploy a wet navy with a regiment or 2 aboard may be the safest thing to do given most AA is land based.

This question gets asked once a month if not more on Dakka. there are fluff examples of boats and submarines in 40k fluff.

orks - have used submarines in fluff
space marines - space marine tanks can ride out on the bottom of oceans and space marines can also fight under water.
tyranid -have biocreatures evolved for underwater life
humans - PDF forces on water worlds/worlds with large bodies of water have sea vessels (this is from then tyranid fluff)

the reason why it is not highlighted in fluff is due to the fact that most players have little interest in it.

 BluntmanDC wrote:

humans - PDF forces on water worlds/worlds with large bodies of water have sea vessels (this is from then tyranid fluff)

the reason why it is not highlighted in fluff is due to the fact that most players have little interest in it.

It's used in Dead in the Water, as well. and much like certain other eternal questions of 40k, are unlikely to be cleared up, because there's either no money in it, or they think for some god awful reason that it might drive away customers who aren't into such modern ideas as 'combined arms'.

Well ... let's not forget that novels (or any other outsourced product, for that matter) don't necessarily have to be "in synch" with everything that GW writes. If some books out there have the Imperial Guard use boats - regardless of the aforementioned reasons of why that would not be practical, and their continued absence in GW's fluff (even where oceans are involved in the fighting, such as the invasion of Tempestora Hive on Armageddon) - then that's quite simply that one author's own, private opinion and interpretation of the setting, but nothing that would necessarily have any meaning for the greater franchise.

If you like it, roll with it. It is just as valid an interpretation of the 41st millennium as what GW is writing. But don't be disappointed if GW and other authors will continue to ignore stuff like that.

tl;dr: appearances in some source do not render something a "fact" - this franchise doesn't work like that. The only "established truths" would be what is uniformly accepted across the majority of products, such as the Emperor being a corpse on Terra, or the Ultramarines having blue armour.

In the bokk The fall of Damnos there is a map in the book which details different parts of the war. One of these describes the Necrons sucking all the water out of an ocean into a dimensional sinkhole. It then describes combat vessels being grounded and the crews killed. This would seem to imply that there are combat ready boats in 40K, if not in the rules.

Reading through this I see that there is more to this than I thought, thanks to everyone for the replies reading them has defiantly helped and I didn't even know about half of these events.

I think i remember there being a battle utilizing a giant beachhead in one of the Gaunt's Ghosts novels? It was basically the landing at Nromandy, but ten times the size (in usual WH40k fashion, of course)

 Eetion wrote:

BlaxicanX wrote:

Affecting a landing into relatively safe unoccupied space will be significantly easier than affecting a troop landing near defensive hard points.

In which case you can do the same thing with a flyer. All that would be required is to fly low enough that anti-air weaponry can'r target you.

You have to get low enough first if your invading a planet.

You have to go low enough to drop off your boats.

Which is easier dropping them off miles from anywhere in largely undefended ocean, than forcing a landing or airstrike on surface to air assets or hard targets on land.

Its not perfect,

But I can easily see a navy being deployed, for a forward command and control element, and a ready to use airstrip for instant Air support deployement, rearming and refueling.
Less so as a military unit in its own right.

All I'm saying is affecting a landing in ocean is likely easier to obtain, and results in a forward operating base on planet, plus near invulnerability to traditional ground forces.

I suspect naval assets are more likely the realm of the PDFs instead of the Imperial Guard, thus ensuring they are quickly slaughtered to a man.

Eetion wrote:Which is easier dropping them off miles from anywhere in largely undefended ocean, than forcing a landing or airstrike on surface to air assets or hard targets on land.

And how will you get the troops from the ocean to where they are actually needed?
Will the beach where you'll have to land be undefended? Why exactly can't the dropships land at the beach, then?

I'm sorry, I believe all you'd end up doing would be to give the enemy more time to prepare for the invasion...

 Lynata wrote:

Will the beach where you'll have to land be undefended? Why exactly can't the dropships land at the beach, then?

Most likely not, but then, His (Space) Marines have experience landing on all sorts of beachheads. The thing about 40k AA, at least the big stuff, is it's immobile (partially because it takes the reactors of whole hive cities to fire). You can't just bring it to the beach to use it.

And remember that drop ships can be shot down by hydras, let alone any of the serious aa.

 Eetion wrote:
Which is easier dropping them off miles from anywhere in largely undefended ocean, than forcing a landing or airstrike on surface to air assets or hard targets on land.

Its not perfect,

But I can easily see a navy being deployed, for a forward command and control element, and a ready to use airstrip for instant Air support deployement, rearming and refueling.
Less so as a military unit in its own right.

All I'm saying is affecting a landing in ocean is likely easier to obtain, and results in a forward operating base on planet, plus near invulnerability to traditional ground forces.

If you can land a boat in an ocean, from space, you can land flying craft in an ocean from space even easier.

 Eetion wrote:
Which is easier dropping them off miles from anywhere in largely undefended ocean, than forcing a landing or airstrike on surface to air assets or hard targets on land.

Its not perfect,

But I can easily see a navy being deployed, for a forward command and control element, and a ready to use airstrip for instant Air support deployement, rearming and refueling.
Less so as a military unit in its own right.

All I'm saying is affecting a landing in ocean is likely easier to obtain, and results in a forward operating base on planet, plus near invulnerability to traditional ground forces.

Orbital dropships, such as IG landing craft, SM space-to-atmosphere craft (Thunderhawks etc) and Navy craft (Valkyries etc) all have enough range to fly laps around a planet on a single 'tank' of fuel. Instead of dropping boats in a safe area, then sailing into combat, why wouldn't the Imperium drop aircraft in a safe area and fly into battle?

Because by flying into battle your still exposing to AA. They have no support, rearming facilities, if they fail first time your deployment is significantly harder.

But let's assume you deploy to land to take out. Surface to orbit weapons platforms to allow a mass invasion,

You deploy to large open space or take the closer and more risky option, suitable for Thunderbolt insertion Lightnings don't have rocket boosters (and it would have to be Thunderbolt to maintian the exit strategy as if you assault from orbit, you must have the capacity to return otherwise its a one way trip).

Identify the weapon platform, and run the AA gauntlet. Also run the defending Air cover to initiate the attack.

All the while your support ship in orbit is pretty much exposed to incoming fire or it can leave orbit and leave you stranded.

By using a naval base of operations a more measured and cautious approach can be taken. Aircraft can re armed, provide aircover to any further troop ships coming in once a beach head is established. Its not a cross your fingers and hope situation.

Of course this is all based on the assumption a planet has heavy orbital defences, most of the time a drop can be made without too much issue. But just trying to say an a wet fleet could have a place in a command and control facility.

 Eetion wrote:
Because by flying into battle your still exposing to AA. They have no support, rearming facilities, if they fail first time your deployment is significantly harder.

But you're forgetting that all AA weapons can also be aimed laterally to become AW (anti-water) weapons as well. An air assault is no more exposed than a water based one.

By using a naval base of operations a more measured and cautious approach can be taken. Aircraft can re armed, provide aircover to any further troop ships coming in once a beach head is established. Its not a cross your fingers and hope situation.

And why not simply park the space-navy on the opposite side of the planet (or at least over the horizon?) From there it is no more vulnerable than a naval base of operations, and can resupply and refuel the air transports and attack craft as needed.

I just really struggle to think of a situation where water craft would be the most functional way of doing things. In almost every situation, an aircraft flying low over the surface fills exactly the same role, and is much more flexible. The only situation I can think of where water craft would be necessary would be assaults on underwater installations.