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Heavy Skimmers = No Jink (FAQ)

Ah, thanks for that.

I hadn't noticed that yet; it may have something to do with the fact that I don't use Monoliths!

Apaosa wrote:Perhaps I'm missing something, but why isn't a Monolith "deepstrike immune"?

Uh, because it's not. The incredibly awesome rule that the Monolith used to have to protect it from deepstrike mishaps when it came in contact with enemy models is no longer there.

That's my only real complaint. I really, really miss being able to deepstrike my Monoliths in the middle of my opponent's army.

 Brymm wrote:


I will correct you because you are wrong

I am not advocating flyer spam with less flyers,... because that is not flyer spam. I am advocating, wait for it, ... a balanced list.
I don't know what prices this would all come out as but I was thinking something like:
Zahndrek
Stormteks/Lanceteks
6 x 5 Warriors or Telsamortals
2 x Night Scythe
2 x Monolith
1 x 3 Spyders, set of claws (probably 2 sets?)
1 x 10 Scarabs
1 x squad - o - wraiths with a d-lord?

I dunno, seems like you could make some stuff happen. You different threats, different delievery systems, good amounts of fire power, Zahndrek,... what could go wrong?

No scoring threats. I can only recommend not using MSU unless you take some Nightscythes. Shooting a squad of 5 Warriors down is pretty easy and without protection, they will go down. Furthermore, 2 flyers will not achieve much as most enemies take a ADL - and one ADL is enough to destroy at least one or even both flyers at ease. It's a risk. What's your overall plan for the army then? You either need to win by scoring or by tabling the enemy and I cannot see how you're going to do that. Furthermore, keep in mind you only have 2 actual vehicles that will draw every enemy anti-tank fire and scarabs cannot offer the monolith any protection despite keeping enemies out of the melta death range. And pray you're not up vs lance weapons or a Vindicare Assassin - or IG. Especially the latter will have you tabled by turn 2/3.

I'd definitely take the squad of Wraiths with a DL as they give your list a lot of flexibility. I'd rather get two squads of 6 scarabs, since you're already getting 3 spyders - remember you can only refill squads, not create new ones.

 Kevin949 wrote:


Wait, so, you were playing against someone that was using part of your army as well?

Yes...and no. I do not use any flyers and still play a modified Silver Tide list...along with the mandatory ADL

Outperform two doom scythes in doing what? I would say, probably yes, in some aspects. Doom scythes aren't guaranteed to come on the board until turn 4. Yes, you can bring zahndrekh but let's not add in extras when doing a straight comparison.

That said, Doom scythes are fast, but they can be too fast. Sometimes limiting what they can shoot at. Their secondary gun does put out a lot of hits but will always allow armor saves. The main gun can't skyfire. All the weapons have about the same range, though really the death ray is pretty short ranged, on average. Even with the best roll, it's only 4" farther than any gun on the monolith (but that is NOT effective range, as you can only ever get 18" of damaging range on it).

Ya, it's a little harder to take down due to Hard to Hit, but not impossible, and even just one 4+ result on the damage die will cripple it badly.

The best thing it has going for it is it's ability to take out high armor targets. But you're probably only going to get one shot with it against those targets before it flies away for at least two turns repositioning.

While it's correct that Doom Scythes aren't guaranteed to come on the board until turn 4, it's highly likely that they do. They outperform the monolith's anti-tank abilities, they perform worse at his anti-MEQ abilities (3+ armor save bs. 4+/5+ cover save) but better at TEQ / 5+ save killing (each assuming the enemy is in cover), they outperform the mobility, they outperform his flexibility, are outperformed in regards to supporting other units (due to the teleport) and outperform the monolith in regards to anti-flyer (as the monolith got nothing). Their main weakness is being forced to either hope for an enemy not bringing a ADL or forcing you to bring Nightscythes in order to force your enemy to split fire. Maneuvering with flyers depends on your enemy. Against larger forces, it can certainly become finnicky, but against MEQ / IG gunlines, it's easy to get enough shots in - judging from other Necron players. Keep in mind that flyers are highly resistant to high S attacks whereas those are the monolith's main weakness.

In the end, I agree with the Jack-of-all-trades thingy to some degree...guns are terrible, lack of deepstrike immunity makes it a lackluster transporter...in the end, a Land Raider surpasses the monolith in all areas. Better weaponry, smoke launcher (often overlooked, but very important), better transport...meh.

How is a Land Raiders weaponry completely superior to the Monolith exactly? Mono has better anti troop (except TeQ), while the Land Raider has better anti vehicle. Also, the LR is faster and an Assault Vehicle, but the Mono can teleport anything on the battlefield including MCs. I would say they are clearly different, but the only way you can call the LR superior is by willfully ignoring what the Mono is good (better) at.

And really, since when was 8/3 Ord Pie Plates a bad weapon?

I don't normally use Monoliths, but I feel pretty confident I could put a two Mono list together that would be quite competitive. The tools are there, is just a matter of slotting them in the right slots.

How about speed, range, and the ability to assault out of the LR?

 NecronLord3 wrote:
How about speed, range, and the ability to assault out of the LR?

If the monolith was a dedicated transport, then yeah, I'd be like "Whoa! That Land Raider is better!"
But alas, it is not.

I could answer like you did, but reference the Monoliths abilities:

How about large LOS blocking profile, a STR8 ORD pie-plate, many anti-infantry shots, the ability to redeploy infantry mid-game multiple times, the ability to shake of stuns and shakens, and occasionally remove eternal warrior characters instantly?

They aren't the same, they don't do the same thing and comparing them is like comparing apples and oranges.

ShadarLogoth wrote:

In the end, I agree with the Jack-of-all-trades thingy to some degree...guns are terrible, lack of deepstrike immunity makes it a lackluster transporter...in the end, a Land Raider surpasses the monolith in all areas. Better weaponry, smoke launcher (often overlooked, but very important), better transport...meh.

How is a Land Raiders weaponry completely superior to the Monolith exactly? Mono has better anti troop (except TeQ), while the Land Raider has better anti vehicle. Also, the LR is faster and an Assault Vehicle, but the Mono can teleport anything on the battlefield including MCs. I would say they are clearly different, but the only way you can call the LR superior is by willfully ignoring what the Mono is good (better) at.

And really, since when was 8/3 Ord Pie Plates a bad weapon?

I don't normally use Monoliths, but I feel pretty confident I could put a two Mono list together that would be quite competitive. The tools are there, is just a matter of slotting them in the right slots.

Land Raiders are faster than a monolith, allow the crew to charge out of it and has a smoke launcher. The smoke launcher is a huge bonus that's often forgotten by most people. His weaponry is superior to the Monolith as it's more versatile. You got strong anti-armor and anti-TEQ weaponry in a normal Ultramarines Land Raider or can get a Crusader / Redeemer for anti-infantry.

The teleport function is very "meh" due to the monolith being that slow. If you do not deepstrike it, it only serves as an objective holder aka "teleport troops to it in turn 5". If you do deepstrike it, it is likely to either be far away from the action or is likely to suffer a deep strike mishap.

Monoliths are not competitive. The problem is that they cost a lot and have no actual offensive threat. A Leman Russ is strong because it's a huge danger for any sort of troop or vehicle. A monolith isn't. Furthermore, the HUGE size lets you never get a cover save and allows your enemy to shoot at it from every possible position. As stated before, in the mirror match I mentioned, I just let my Heavy Destroyers shoot at one monolith and it popped. Even a simple immobilized result forces you to repair it asap or lose most of its power. AP 1/2 template weapons downright rape the monolith. There are so many tools to get rid of monoliths and they offer so little in return.

S8 AP3 isn't a bad weapon by default. It's just that it's mounted on a pretty expensive vehicle with "meh" weaponry. As others, and myself, have already stated, the monolith does not need many or major changes to become a Monolith again. Deepstrike immunity and sth. extra, e.g. the old teleport function, a buffed Living Metal USR to make it more resilent, defensive measures (Jink, smoke), Assault Vehicle...something. And it would be fine. But that's not going to happen.

 Sigvatr wrote:

 Brymm wrote:

Wait, so, you were playing against someone that was using part of your army as well?

Yes...and no. I do not use any flyers and still play a modified Silver Tide list...along with the mandatory ADL

Outperform two doom scythes in doing what? I would say, probably yes, in some aspects. Doom scythes aren't guaranteed to come on the board until turn 4. Yes, you can bring zahndrekh but let's not add in extras when doing a straight comparison.

That said, Doom scythes are fast, but they can be too fast. Sometimes limiting what they can shoot at. Their secondary gun does put out a lot of hits but will always allow armor saves. The main gun can't skyfire. All the weapons have about the same range, though really the death ray is pretty short ranged, on average. Even with the best roll, it's only 4" farther than any gun on the monolith (but that is NOT effective range, as you can only ever get 18" of damaging range on it).

Ya, it's a little harder to take down due to Hard to Hit, but not impossible, and even just one 4+ result on the damage die will cripple it badly.

The best thing it has going for it is it's ability to take out high armor targets. But you're probably only going to get one shot with it against those targets before it flies away for at least two turns repositioning.

While it's correct that Doom Scythes aren't guaranteed to come on the board until turn 4, it's highly likely that they do. They outperform the monolith's anti-tank abilities, they perform worse at his anti-MEQ abilities (3+ armor save bs. 4+/5+ cover save) but better at TEQ / 5+ save killing (each assuming the enemy is in cover), they outperform the mobility, they outperform his flexibility, are outperformed in regards to supporting other units (due to the teleport) and outperform the monolith in regards to anti-flyer (as the monolith got nothing). Their main weakness is being forced to either hope for an enemy not bringing a ADL or forcing you to bring Nightscythes in order to force your enemy to split fire. Maneuvering with flyers depends on your enemy. Against larger forces, it can certainly become finnicky, but against MEQ / IG gunlines, it's easy to get enough shots in - judging from other Necron players. Keep in mind that flyers are highly resistant to high S attacks whereas those are the monolith's main weakness.

Ya, I don't play flyer heavy lists either. Only had 1 flyer and didn't plan on buying more.

All valid points, and ones I knew would be brought up. Just furthering the point that both vehicles do have their role. Also, it's not impossible to get a cover save with a monolith. I don't know what kinda terrain you guys use or anything, but it's not difficult to get 25% of the vehicle facing obscured. Honestly, I usually move the monolith up the field at an angle so one of the corners is facing the enemy. Seems to force them to reposition their army so they don't give me that bonus cover save for "extreme angle" shots.

Ok the monolith, ctan, scarab, spyder "wing" that I tend to run comes to 755pts(I run a rather cheap C'tan with the 2 cheap shooting abilities, since the c'tan is running behind the mono it doesn't need the enhanced survivability and since it isn't running to keep pace with the mono you are able to shoot on your turns) which leaves you just shy of 1000pts for the rest of your army if your playing 1750.

With the remaining points one list that I run includes 4 squads of 5 warriors with a nightscythe and a stormtek each. And a Barge lord, this leaves you 55pts to do with as you pleas and you can switch out the barge lord if you don't like it and you'll have some more points to play around with.

This gives you 4 flyers for anti-flyer duty and they can dish out some decent firepower if there no flyers. With 4 units inside that can take out any tank just shy of a land raider. Scoring isn't great but it isn't bad, they are pretty safe in the scythes and only ever come out to take a point end game or to pop a threatening vehicle.

So it's not like your really missing anything by including a monolith with the right build you can cover some of the flaws that the monolith has. The flyers make great anti-teq units if your facing them and the monolith makes great anti-meq.

Also if your that worried about IG wiping you out turn 2/3(seems unlikely to me but then I don't play against IG too often) you can always choose to deepstrike the monolith that game. The thing about the monolith is it gives you great flexibility game to game, you can deploy for LOS blocking or deep strike it deep into enemy territory. If IG worries you about their long range high fire power, then deep strike within 24" of it and ordnance it before it shoots you, blasts are amazing at blowing up parking lots in this edition. And as for lack of room to deep strike, sure it is big but almost always when I play there is somewhere 24ish inches away from my target that I can deepstrike to. Anyway if you can't then maybe your tables have too much difficult terrain, or maybe the tables that I play on have to little, its hard to say it's very subjective but there should be room (I mean you place the terrain in this edition, make room lol).

Anyway like I said before in a vacuum yes the monolith is bad and the codex has better options, but this game isn't played in a vacuum if your army supports the monolith and the monolith supports the army then it's perfectly viable. There is no need to bring back the old overpowered Monolith, the Monolith used to be required to make the dated codex relevant in the editions after 3rd, but the codex isn't dated anymore and the army doesn't need a crutch it can stand on its own with many many viable lists.

Ya, I've still had nothing but good results with new-lith. sure it gets destroyed a bit more often now, but no more so than my opponents land raiders. And at least my vehicles aren't being destroyed by str 4 weapons like his.

We might be at a misunderstanding here that's not intended by any of us. To me, relating units to a certain role is too one-dimensional. While it certainly works with some units (such as a Vindicare only being effective vs. armored vehicles), the monolith is a much harder case - as others have already pointed out.

Compared to other heavy support choices, his weaponry is very lackluster, but at the same time, he offers battlefield-wide teleporting for (almost) your entire army (yet pales in comparison to the Monolith). A Leman Russ vastly outperforms the monolith shooting-wise at comes at a discount of 25%, but lacks the teleporting.

That's my main issue with the monolith: it's a jack-of-all-trades and therefore does not fit into the new codex. Its entire ruleset feels slapped on in an army that's heavily focused on specialized units (not on Eldar level of course) and the synergy among them. It feels like GW somehow could not get rid of it because it was so iconic...and thus they released half-assed rules leaving it "somewhere between" at a hefty price tag.

We use the NOVA terrain setup in competitive games and "fluff" terrain placement in friendlies aka "looks cool, play it". The only allowed fortifications are the ADL and the Bastion. Keeping the monolith in cover can be a problem because of its use - if you keep him in cover, you're likely to have it sitting behind on your side near an objective. It can work - no doubt here! I still prefer my ADL though as it provides my army with what it needs, good cover and a nice gun to take down flyers. Furthermore, with the Nightscythe and the FAQ, the teleport function took a hit too, given the (far too long) distance a Nightscythe can travel. I am aware of it being another unit in a different slot. The issue is that it's one less reason to get a monolith. The old Necron codex's Monolith was almost necessary because Oldcrons lacked mobility - they were the most static army in the game (despite IG gunline of course). Granted, everyone took it because of the overpowered Living Metal USR and its *awesome* ability to teleport our troops out of combat.

My point is that some things a Monolith offered can now be replaced by other units and thus make taking a monolith less viable. We now have more than one template weapon. We now have very mobile units. We now have transporters. Every unit that's dedicated to such a "role" outclasses the monolith's respective ability. It lost its "monopoly" on certain parts of the army composition and furthermore, it got nerfed. It received the (necessary) nerfs yet got nothing in return. As said before: half-assed changes, ultimately making the monolith redundant and inferior to the other choices in the same slot.

I don't think it pales in comparison to the teleport function of the previous monolith, I love infinite range teleport and the ability to teleport all non-vehicle units now. I do miss the re-roll of WBB though. Teleporting out of CC was always niche though as most of the times you were either winning CC or you were swept first round. Also remember in the previous codex you could not teleport large units of warriors because they could not fit out of the gate so you would lose some or force emergency disembark, which severely hindered them and the point of teleporting.

Yes, though, I do agree that the monolith is a shadow of it's former self with only a small decrease in points to accommodate. It really seems to me that "Particle Weapons" got the shaft compared to gauss and tesla, ya know?

Comparing the old Monolith to the new monolith is a problem when determining it's viability. Sure you can think of it as being worse but the old codex and the new codex are completely different. None of the units function as they did in the previous codex so saying the monolith is bad now because it's different from the old one is a problem. The two codex's are like apples and oranges, so not taking a monolith because it seems worse than the previous iteration isn't the right approach. These are newcrons they are completely different from necrons they just look similar.

The monoliths old teleport was needed because necrons in that codex would phaseout if they lost too many, and extended CC was a surefire way for that to happen. In this edition it doesn't really matter if you lose a warrior squad as its not likely to determine by itself whether you win or lose, so the teleport function isn't a requirement anymore. The old Living metal was a way to ensure that this requirement of staying alive of the necrons was likely to last. Necrons don't phaseout anymore so they don't need to be recycled anymore, and since recycling isn't a requirement the monolith isn't required to last the whole battle and thus it doesn't have its uber rule anymore. The monolith changed because the army changed, before this codex there were 2 army builds; destroyer wing and one that included 1 or more monoliths. Now there are many different viable lists for necrons and just because the monolith isn't in every single one of them doesn't mean that its now useless(the only useless unit in the codex are flayed ones).

Punisher wrote:
Comparing the old Monolith to the new monolith is a problem when determining it's viability. Sure you can think of it as being worse but the old codex and the new codex are completely different. None of the units function as they did in the previous codex so saying the monolith is bad now because it's different from the old one is a problem. The two codex's are like apples and oranges, so not taking a monolith because it seems worse than the previous iteration isn't the right approach. These are newcrons they are completely different from necrons they just look similar.

The monoliths old teleport was needed because necrons in that codex would phaseout if they lost too many, and extended CC was a surefire way for that to happen. In this edition it doesn't really matter if you lose a warrior squad as its not likely to determine by itself whether you win or lose, so the teleport function isn't a requirement anymore. The old Living metal was a way to ensure that this requirement of staying alive of the necrons was likely to last. Necrons don't phaseout anymore so they don't need to be recycled anymore, and since recycling isn't a requirement the monolith isn't required to last the whole battle and thus it doesn't have its uber rule anymore. The monolith changed because the army changed, before this codex there were 2 army builds; destroyer wing and one that included 1 or more monoliths. Now there are many different viable lists for necrons and just because the monolith isn't in every single one of them doesn't mean that its now useless(the only useless unit in the codex are flayed ones).

Honestly I think the change to living metal was because the necrons went from having 1 vehicle to having....8?

I heart Sig, but I just gotta dissect this post a bit.

The teleport function is very "meh" due to the monolith being that slow. If you do not deepstrike it, it only serves as an objective holder aka "teleport troops to it in turn 5". If you do deepstrike it, it is likely to either be far away from the action or is likely to suffer a deep strike mishap.

You seem to have a very specific purpose for teleport in mind. In actual games their is strategic flexibility that comes with that teleport that you're not even considering. Say, pulling some LG/C'Tan or similar back to protect your main force after pushing forward. Or pulling some stranded Warriors from reserves (dead aeroplane).

Monoliths are not competitive.

Meaningless statement. What you mean to say is "I have not personally fielded a competitive army with the Monolith." It's quite simply impossible to make such a definitive statement about something with zero actual experience.

The problem is that they cost a lot and have no actual offensive threat.

Except for the S 8 AP 3 pie plate that closely resembles the main weapon in a lot of HS choices....

A Leman Russ is strong because it's a huge danger for any sort of troop or vehicle. A monolith isn't.

You might like S8 Ords dropping on your parking lot. Most people don't though.

Furthermore, the HUGE size lets you never get a cover save and allows your enemy to shoot at it from every possible position.

Have you ever seen a Ghost Arc before?

As stated before, in the mirror match I mentioned, I just let my Heavy Destroyers shoot at one monolith and it popped. Even a simple immobilized result forces you to repair it asap or lose most of its power. AP 1/2 template weapons downright rape the monolith. There are so many tools to get rid of monoliths and they offer so little in return.

Your opponent sucks and you got a little lucky. If you're not an R-tard and get the Mono some cover their is very little chance it gets popped by one volley of HDs. I don't know what you mean exactly by "AP 1/2 template weapons downright rape the monolith..." Uh...what? I'm guessing you mean "blast" not "template". Still...what? What weapons are you speaking of specifically? Lance weapons can scare the Mono, and Melta/Gauss/Haywire can be a peach if they get in range. However, most weapons that people rely on for anti-vehicle, like ACs, Missles, Plasma, etc, bounce off or do absolutely nothing to it. It's still one of the most resilient vehicles in the game (short of Apoc), nerfs to LM not withstanding.

S

8 AP3 isn't a bad weapon by default. It's just that it's mounted on a pretty expensive vehicle with "meh" weaponry.

Wait, what? So discounting the weapon that is the only weapon for a lot of HS platforms its weaponry is "meh"? You can't completely ignore the Gauss Arcs, even if they will be snapfiring they will get there hits (plus, might as well shoot at some Planes if you can). Also, the port to Deleware is a serious deterrent. Short range aside, you will force CC focused units to deal with it as no-one wants to send their expensive CC monsters at your Warriors just to get sucked up. It's arguably a bigger psychological threat then it is an actual threat, but the impact will be no less significant. And then there's the teleporting ability. You know, the ability that can single handily win you games.

See. It's all these things. You can't compare it to another HS choice and then focus solely on the offensive capabilities and ignore the rest. AB's have more versatile punch in them, but they die by round 2 if your opponent doesn't suck at target priority. Your Mono might be dead by round 2, but only after "tanking" the brunt of the opponent's fire power. Your Mono might also hang around till Round 5 and teleport some Warriors onto an objective and win you a game. Or two. Or three.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

The monolith changed because the army changed, before this codex there were 2 army builds; destroyer wing and one that included 1 or more monoliths. Now there are many different viable lists for necrons and just because the monolith isn't in every single one of them doesn't mean that its now useless(the only useless unit in the codex are flayed ones).

Agree with most of your post Punisher however to 3 Mono+ Deceiver +9 Wraith army Dash was pimping towards the end of the last codex was actually a pretty decent build as well. But yeah, it's a very different unit then it was in the previous iteration, no doubt.




...And Flayed Ones rock. GTFO

Two things first.

1. Thanks for all the input here. I love having actual profound discussions with other wargamers on certain issues and I like the fact that everyone makes valid points intead of trying to get his points through.

2. I just want to remind everyone that I do not "hate" the monolith or consider it being "terrible". I consider it being mediocre. Furthermore, be aware of the fact that I started playing Necrons in mid-3rd edition and there might be some nostalgic feelings that blur my objective perspective on some matters. Apologies if this might occur, but I really play Necrons because of their (3rd) fluff and the general (3rd) idea of the army and am pretty emotionally attached to the army.

Punisher wrote:
Comparing the old Monolith to the new monolith is a problem when determining it's viability. Sure you can think of it as being worse but the old codex and the new codex are completely different. None of the units function as they did in the previous codex so saying the monolith is bad now because it's different from the old one is a problem. The two codex's are like apples and oranges, so not taking a monolith because it seems worse than the previous iteration isn't the right approach. These are newcrons they are completely different from necrons they just look similar.

I partially agree and at the same time disagree with you on this matter. I made an elaborate post on why I think why the monolith is inferior to the Monolith, my main point being both still sharing a similar function yet there being less of an actual need for its key functions as the new Necron codex now has several specialized units that can do the same job better than the monolith. I do not want to allege you not having read my previous post, but I pretty much said there what I wanted to say here

The monoliths old teleport was needed because necrons in that codex would phaseout if they lost too many, and extended CC was a surefire way for that to happen. In this edition it doesn't really matter if you lose a warrior squad as its not likely to determine by itself whether you win or lose, so the teleport function isn't a requirement anymore. The old Living metal was a way to ensure that this requirement of staying alive of the necrons was likely to last. Necrons don't phaseout anymore so they don't need to be recycled anymore, and since recycling isn't a requirement the monolith isn't required to last the whole battle and thus it doesn't have its uber rule anymore. The monolith changed because the army changed, before this codex there were 2 army builds; destroyer wing and one that included 1 or more monoliths.

That certainly is a good point I have not yet considered. I'll add that it was nerfed for balance reasons as well - vehicles took a considerable hit in 6th and a Monolith would be ridiculously overpowered. Even being a long-term Necron fan, I consider the Monolith being broken as hell...almost indestructible and a huge support at the same time.

ShadarLogoth wrote:

You seem to have a very specific purpose for teleport in mind. In actual games their is strategic flexibility that comes with that teleport that you're not even considering. Say, pulling some LG/C'Tan or similar back to protect your main force after pushing forward. Or pulling some stranded Warriors from reserves (dead aeroplane).

I don't see a situation where the first thing could happen and I'd appreciate some elaboration here. In your given example, is the C'Tan / LG approaching the enemy lines with the monolith staying back? If yes, why would you want to teleport them in your backfield again? LG are more resilent to melee than they are to shooting and if you teleport them back from the front once, they are unlikely to ever make it back again.

Meaningless statement. What you mean to say is "I have not personally fielded a competitive army with the Monolith." It's quite simply impossible to make such a definitive statement about something with zero actual experience.

That's a false assumption on your part - you cannot know if I never used monoliths in 6th in a competitive environment. I did at the start of 6th. As I stated above, I am a long-term Necron player and thus started 6th with the models I then had, this being lots of Warriors, Destroyers and 2 Monoliths. The monoliths did not perform terrible, but they did not do such a good job either - they simply did not make a lasting impression. Consider that I lacked proper experience with the monoliths, but in 6th, you really need to build your list around them. Without any troops stopping the enemy from getting in melta range, your monoliths will blow up. To make monoliths work, you need a special list that's very immobile compared to balanced list.

Furthermore, I therefore ask you to raise successful competitive lists that include one or more monoliths.

Except for the S 8 AP 3 pie plate that closely resembles the main weapon in a lot of HS choices[...]You might like S8 Ords dropping on your parking lot. Most people don't though.

It's a single template weapon (I use the term "template" for all...well...template-base weapons, not just the flame template) that can only glance a lot of enemy armor. You will almost exclusively hit the front armor and thus can only glance a lot of vehicles. Not very effective. Doomsday Arks / Doom Scythes cost less and do a much, much better on this matter with the latter being considerably harder to get rid of unless packing AA weapons.

Have you ever seen a Ghost Arc before?

As stated multiple times on dakka, I still field a modified Silver Tide list that includes two Ghost Arks.

Your opponent sucks and you got a little lucky. If you're not an R-tard and get the Mono some cover their is very little chance it gets popped by one volley of HDs. I don't know what you mean exactly by "AP 1/2 template weapons downright rape the monolith..." Uh...what? I'm guessing you mean "blast" not "template". Still...what? What weapons are you speaking of specifically? Lance weapons can scare the Mono, and Melta/Gauss/Haywire can be a peach if they get in range. However, most weapons that people rely on for anti-vehicle, like ACs, Missles, Plasma, etc, bounce off or do absolutely nothing to it. It's still one of the most resilient vehicles in the game (short of Apoc), nerfs to LM not withstanding.

3 Heavy Destroyers fire 3 S9 AP2 shots. 66% chance to hit, re-roll all 1s. Likely to hit with all 3 shots. S9 vs. AV 14, thus a 5 glances and a 6 penetrates. Reroll all hits that did not glance or penetrate due to Zandrenkh providing Tank Hunter. +1 on the cehicle damage chart due to AP2. I'm not saying that I was guaranteed to destroy it, far from it, but it's not as unlikey as you might consider.

The thing with any template weapons is, again, the monolith's size and the change to how template weapons work in 6th - they now do full damage even when the hole's not hitting the vehicle, but the rest of the template does. With the monolith being huge, it's very likely that even a bad roll on the scatter roll will still result in it hitting the vehicle. I am specifically talking about AP1/2 template weapons, e.g. Leman Russ. IG are a very common sight in my local meta and those guys surely pack a punch.

Wait, what? So discounting the weapon that is the only weapon for a lot of HS platforms its weaponry is "meh"? You can't completely ignore the Gauss Arcs, even if they will be snapfiring they will get there hits (plus, might as well shoot at some Planes if you can). Also, the port to Deleware is a serious deterrent. Short range aside, you will force CC focused units to deal with it as no-one wants to send their expensive CC monsters at your Warriors just to get sucked up. It's arguably a bigger psychological threat then it is an actual threat, but the impact will be no less significant. And then there's the teleporting ability. You know, the ability that can single handily win you games.

Yes, I do discount the Gauss Arcs. Snapfiring bolters will not have any lasting impact on the game unless you roll really lucky, and even the Gauss rule is out of effect with you being forced to roll 2 6s in a row to actually make use of it. The portal has an average threat range of 9'' - which is outside the average assault range of 13''. It therefore can hardly threaten MC or similar assault units near the monolith. Furthermore, a lot of MC have at least S5, making it even more of a huge gamble to suck them in.

See. It's all these things. You can't compare it to another HS choice and then focus solely on the offensive capabilities and ignore the rest. AB's have more versatile punch in them, but they die by round 2 if your opponent doesn't suck at target priority. Your Mono might be dead by round 2, but only after "tanking" the brunt of the opponent's fire power. Your Mono might also hang around till Round 5 and teleport some Warriors onto an objective and win you a game. Or two. Or three.

I already made my point on the monolith compared to other HS choices, see above. Your "tanking" argument, however, does not stand. Both vehicles you mentioned share the same slot, with the AB being less than half the cost of a monolith. The teleporting function sure is useful, I already said that. The thing is, however, that you just spent 200 points for a unit that's sitting in your backfield, that's easily being targetted from everywhere on the battlefield and is split from the rest of your army thus easily falls prone to e.g. deepstriking anti-armor units such as melta-squads.

I don't see a situation where the first thing could happen and I'd appreciate some elaboration here. In your given example, is the C'Tan / LG approaching the enemy lines with the monolith staying back? If yes, why would you want to teleport them in your backfield again? LG are more resilent to melee than they are to shooting and if you teleport them back from the front once, they are unlikely to ever make it back again.

Your fighting Chaos with a strong CC element mixed in with some Havocs. You send your LG deep early to clear out the Havocs. Later, your opponents CC is closing in on your main force with the Monos. At this point you teleport the LG back to the Monos. Or, you put Monos on both flanks, and pull the LG as needed. Their are a plethora of examples on how the portal can be used outside of late game scoring heroics.

Fair enough on the game experience, but it does sounds like something you were fully committed to. However:

Without any troops stopping the enemy from getting in melta range, your monoliths will blow up.

This should never, ever, ever happen in 6th. Except Deep Strike Melta and Multi-Melta, if you're parking your Mono within range of Melta guns your doing something wrong.

To make monoliths work, you need a special list that's very immobile compared to balanced list.

I don't agree with that at all. I think the best Mono list is a Scarab farm hybrid, and there are few things in the Necron Codex faster then a Scarab (Fliers excluded). Also, Monos play good with said fliers.

...that can only glance a lot of enemy armor.

A lot? You mean AV14, the rarest armor in the game? Is your Meta 95% IG Leman Russ spam?

You will almost exclusively hit the front armor and thus can only glance a lot of vehicles.

Why? And again, AV14?

Doomsday Arks / Doom Scythes cost less

25 points, less resilient, no portal. You get a fair amount of ganja out of those 25 points.

As stated multiple times on dakka, I still field a modified Silver Tide list that includes two Ghost Arks.

Sweet. Then you should be able to see that a GA easily covers 25% of a Mono.

3 Heavy Destroyers fire 3 S9 AP2 shots. 66% chance to hit, re-roll all 1s. Likely to hit with all 3 shots. S9 vs. AV 14, thus a 5 glances and a 6 penetrates. Reroll all hits that did not glance or penetrate due to Zandrenkh providing Tank Hunter. +1 on the cehicle damage chart due to AP2. I'm not saying that I was guaranteed to destroy it, far from it, but it's not as unlikey as you might consider.

If the Mono has cover (which, really, he should), and assuming your re-rolling your glances with Zandy, but also assuming the Monos general has Zandy (stealth) you have 3(2/3)+3(1/6)(2/3)=2.33((1/6)+(5/6)(1/6))=0.71(1/2)(1/3)=11.9% ... 11.9%.... I would say that's pretty lucky. Even with out the cover it's 23.8%. Certainly not impossible, but lucky none the less.

Yes, I do discount the Gauss Arcs. Snapfiring bolters will not have any lasting impact on the game unless you roll really lucky, and even the Gauss rule is out of effect with you being forced to roll 2 6s in a row to actually make use of it.

Discount them all you want, shoot them every turn and they will kill some things. Also, they give the Mono a whole slew of "Weapon Destroyed" to take that he's not too worried about.

The portal has an average threat range of 9'' - which is outside the average assault range of 13''. It therefore can hardly threaten MC or similar assault units near the monolith. Furthermore, a lot of MC have at least S5, making it even more of a huge gamble to suck them in.

Like I said before, deterrent. Also, what does it matter what their assault range is when most units aren't going to be able to touch the Mono in CC? A single Power Fist isn't going to scratch the paint. Even your average MC smashing doesn't have a fantastic chance of killing it. And then they have a good chance of disappearing off the board. Its a risky endeavor no matter what CC unit you have. For some units, like a group of Orc Boys with a PK, or BAs, it's basically a suicide run.

Your "tanking" argument, however, does not stand.

Why? It's clearly more resilient then the other HS choices and will, on average, soak up more firepower, particularly with a couple Spyders ironing out the kinks. Can't really argue with that.

The thing is, however, that you just spent 200 points for a unit that's sitting in your backfield, that's easily being targetted from everywhere on the battlefield and is split from the rest of your army thus easily falls prone to e.g. deepstriking anti-armor units such as melta-squads.

Why would you ever run a Monolith in your backfield away from the rest of your forces and vulnerable to deep striking Melta?


Also, lets not forget about Night Fighting. Mono+Cover+Stealth from Zandy+Shrouding from NF=good luck killing this Mono. Can't pull that off all the time, but still worth mentioning.

ShadarLogoth wrote:

As stated multiple times on dakka, I still field a modified Silver Tide list that includes two Ghost Arks.

Sweet. Then you should be able to see that a GA easily covers 25% of a Mono.

Hold up.

Is your solution seriously to use the AV13 Ghost Ark to provide cover for the AV14 Monolith?

Wow you could actually give the Mono a 4+ cover save with Zandrehk giving the Monolith stealth by blocking with an ark or better yet a Barge.

Blocking a Monolith with an Annihilation Barge is going to be tough, as you really need to place it into the correct alignment, and hope your opponent's shooter isn't mobile in any way.

But again, I don't quite understand the point to this... the Monolith is there to give cover to things. I'm not sure why you would want your more valuable (value, not cost) vehicles to provide cover for a Monolith.

I love my monolith, as it says in my signature, I run it fairly frequently. I place it at the center of my battle line. No drop pod will fit anywhere near it. It wins me games, as for some reason people focus on the big scary tank, instead of the two a-barges nearby it. Push up the center of the field, and Laugh.

I've yet to lose my monolith, its survived zoan lances, trygon smashes, meltabombs, power fists, chain fists, you name it. Its plenty durable. It also works WONDERS against anything t4, with feel no pain, multiple wounds, or 3+ armor to keep it alive (.....Nobs....Marines....warriors) I use it as an anti-heavy infantry platform.

The fact that it will basically ignore plasma, krak missiles, and completely ignore autocannons, which are at this point everyone's favorite anti-armor weapons, its value is not to be completely disregarded. Often times, my enemy runs out of anti-armor units long before they destroy it, and it simply camps the middle of the map, frying anything that gets close, teleporting squads to the middle from whatever flank folds first.

A round my opponent spends trying to drop the 'lith, is a round they aren't shooting at the real killers in my army, like the barges, scythes, and wraiths...(Did I mention a squad of wraiths in front of it CAN give it a cover save if in the right place?)


That being said, i know they aren't hyper competitive, nor are they optimized. But at the same time, they are quite awesome.
Cheers!