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 Kaldor wrote:

hands_miranda wrote:
No I don't see, because that always allows a bigoted society to wash its hands of what it does. Again, it's up to you what you do when someone's offended about what you do, but using your privilege to shout people down for not toeing the line is disgusting.

Is it? Is it really?

So like, when I disagree with you, I'm not toeing your line. So you proceed to 'shout down' at me and anyone who disagrees with you, with phrases like "It's disgusting" and "check your privilege".

And that, people, is irony.

You're not accounting for the difference in power between groups. Not acknowledging that that there are unwritten and unaccounted for advantages (is that a better term than privilege for you?) while having some limited level of de jure equality is what you're intentionally not seeing. Again, I feel like I have to bring stuff up with one hand tied behind my back because I'm pretty sure I'll be modded out of existence if I don't.

For your records:

SRS

Tumblr

Caution, NSFL language through links.

Never did SRS, but have read the reddit thread on SA a bit. You actually think the people bringing up and calling out all that awful misogyny and racism are the bad guys? It's like up is down for you.

Tekik wrote:

Makumba wrote:
At time like this I see how different the american or western mind set is from the asian one . You guys say that samurai orcs are not offensive [at least for you], but your not getting the fact that for a most people in japan there is no such thing as samurai no from Japan . It is a best a parody and at worse considered stealing stuff. And before you say funy stuff is ment to be funy , remember that all groups are ok when a member of it makes the joke . Stupid polak jokes told by polaks ? can be funy , told not by polaks the fun stops . the use of the N word is accepted or not depanding on your color . make some jokes about beans , pasta or pierogi while not belonging to specific national group and check what happens .
you dont even have to do that go to a bar or pub where your home team fans sit , in an opposing team shirt and talk about how bad this seson was for your home team . Check what happens .

The difference is (and this may just be how I have interpreted the OPs post) that he isnt claiming they are samurai orks. They are orks who landed on a feudal Japanese like world, killed some samurai in the war and thought their gear was cool. I dont see anything offensive in that. He isnt saying samurai are like orks, nor is he saying orks are like samurai. So I would say this army isn't any more offensive then the entire ethnically themed IG regiments.

thank you sir, my friends like to say my army is anime fan orks instead of samurai orks, and they are kind of right. the orks appropriated another culture and didn't quite capture the nuances of it, creating a kind of theme park version.

 Vladsimpaler wrote:

Hands_Miranda is the typical "raceblind" person who focuses waaaay more on race than the average person. They claim to be "open-minded", but only (of course) when it suits them. Some of these people are so "open minded" that their brain appears to have dropped out of their head!

I don't claim to be colorblind, because we don't have an equal society by a long shot yet, at least not in my country. Do you complain that gay rights activists are focused on LBGT status or feminists are focused on gender too? You have to consider race when you're dealing with the problem of trying to fix a race issue. The reason "most people" (i.e. most people you know) don't think about race is because we've forcibly pushed the matter beneath the surface, just like class issues. The fact that many of them are helped along by the unwritten bias of society is a big factor too. And shockingly, it's all very much to the benefit of those currently on top.

Seriously, grow up and learn that society is moving into the 21st century and that minorities of all kinds (race, gender, sexual orientation, ect.) actually get have a say at table at times even when you don't want them to. I'm also done with this thread unless a mod is willing to allow me a actually say something back-- I have a feeling that I'm being goaded over a line to get banned.

trust me I understand race issues, and I've seen firsthand some cases of institutional racism that still exist here. for example: my uncle's housekeeper was a doctor in the Congo, she's an amazing doctor and knows how to treat serious medical issues with basic herbs (and not that new age stuff, I'm talking plants with active ingredients that science has yet to explore, but the locals know all about their medicinal properties). She's got some serious experience working under pressure, having on one occasion delivered a baby while under fire from rebels. I'd rather have her as my doctor than some resident. but you know what: her degree isn't recognized here, despite the fact that she has some amazing skills. so here in the USA she's a housekeeper. she still gets to use her skills now and again whenever my uncle who is a doctor has a case that he just can't solve. she's his secret weapon.

Legion of Flame wrote:
You could do an Australian army and some bogan could get offended. Have them all wearing t-shirts, riding crocodiles, wielding didgeridoos and wearing thongs. Somebody would get offended.

I've just read this entire thread - the main thing I need now is something else to think about. Because thongs aren't the same in the uk, now I can't get that image out of my head. That's an offensive image

So yeah - (as above) people are allowed to choose what they find offensive. In exactly the same was as we also can choose to not be offended. If someone finds your army offensive then it's up to them. If you explain why you've done it and they are still offended then just...either apologise or move on.

I'm christian, english and white - if someone made an ork army using those ideas, I wouldn't find it offensive, but I know people that would. So I just wouldn't tell them.

I don't think its offensive at all. Its more of a tribute to the samurai I'd say. I have a lot of japanese in japan, and I'd think they would find the concept laughable

Let me go on to add that your orks are not japanese, they are samurai. In other words, I could be a samurai and still be my non-japanese hertitage. Maka sence?

Let me add another thing lol. Your gana get a lot of opinions about this subject. In the end, its your choice. But no matter what you do, learning forms of discretion and tact would be key. If you think something MIGHT be offensive, best not to show it at all

hands_miranda wrote:

 Vladsimpaler wrote:

Hands_Miranda is the typical "raceblind" person who focuses waaaay more on race than the average person. They claim to be "open-minded", but only (of course) when it suits them. Some of these people are so "open minded" that their brain appears to have dropped out of their head!

I don't claim to be colorblind, because we don't have an equal society by a long shot yet, at least not in my country. Do you complain that gay rights activists are focused on LBGT status or feminists are focused on gender too? You have to consider race when you're dealing with the problem of trying to fix a race issue. The reason "most people" (i.e. most people you know) don't think about race is because we've forcibly pushed the matter beneath the surface, just like class issues. The fact that many of them are helped along by the unwritten bias of society is a big factor too. And shockingly, it's all very much to the benefit of those currently on top.

This is a good video about Morgan Freeman's thoughts on Black History Month. Coincidentally, I hold the same views about this matter as he does.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GeixtYS-P3s

Also I don't really care about LBGT since it doesn't affect me. Most people think that modern-day Feminists are insane (which they are), so I don't let them rustle my jimmies.
I don't let the race or creed of someone cloud my judgments when I deal with them, unless they start spouting nonsense like you.

Seriously, grow up and learn that society is moving into the 21st century and that minorities of all kinds (race, gender, sexual orientation, ect.) actually get have a say at table at times even when you don't want them to.

Me? Grow up? Hahaha
See the problem is the more you focus on these groups being minorities and weaker, the more they'll stay that way. Obama didn't become president because of affirmative action. Colin Powell didn't get to where he was because people were concerned about his race.

I'm also done with this thread unless a mod is willing to allow me a actually say something back-- I have a feeling that I'm being goaded over a line to get banned.

Oh don't worry, you're doing that yourself. Nobody's goading you, you're just overreacting and making this heated.

yeri's army offends me for two reasons.

1) He keeps taking pictures of grey models on a grey carpet. Dude, put them on some blue construction paper or something!



2) He seems to be jumping from project to project without painting anything. Dude, show me some painted samurai orks already!

Otherwise, they look just fine and I support him on his endeavors.

Guilty as charged on both counts, but at least I have a defense for not having them painted: I can't undercoat them here, I have nowhere to spray them, and I'm too lazy to under coat them by hand. but I'll try to get the ones that I got undercoated over thanksgiving painted sometime this weekend. also with dead week here coming up I should have a lot of time on my hands, I'll try to get the two thirty man boyz mobs that are half painted at this point done and ready.

The above post was meant to be a joke, yeri. I like your army.

I'm still in the process of reading it, but I'd like to say now that nearly any time you have to ask this question, the answer is yes.

--------------------------------------------------------------------

I just read it, and that guy was an idiot. Every "real" army that GW has ever done should be offensive to this guy it sounds like.

yes but comedy makes for the most palatable honesty. and I do need to get these guys painted

EDIT: just remembered why I don't paint my guys here either. this broom closet I call a dorm room only has one place to put a desk, and it's not a good desk to paint on. gives me a back ache every time I try to get anything substantial done. had to use a heating pad after I tried to paint my big mek


Automatically Appended Next Post:
hey I ran into the first guy again, and I finally figured out what his problem was: he's one of those uyoku dantai guys, and apparently a serious hothead according to the other exchange students. he read about my grandpa's experience with kamikazes on another thread over my shoulder in the cafeteria, and he was not amused in the least bit. he is apparently from a samurai family and socks me in the back of the head claiming it is his right of Kiri-sute gomen. one of my new Japanese friends told me what Kiri-sute gomen is, and I decided that if he was going to pull ancestral rank, then so was I. in an act that would make Arigorn applaud I announced for the entire cafeteria to hear my lineage back to William the Conqueror and declared that I was of noble blood equal if not greater than his (true by the way, I can trace my lineage back to William the Conqueror through the house of Lancaster and the house of Plantagenet thanks to my grandma's pet project of researching her family tree). well he starts smirking and challenges me to Ketto, which I accept, and seeing as we are on American soil, American dueling rules apply (the challenged gets to pick the weapon, I picked bare hands) he never laid a finger on me, I was too quick, but I didn't lay a finger on him either. I just wore him out while campus security came to break it up. I swear I'm going to be telling my kids about this one someday

hands_miranda wrote:
accounting

Accounting is an ableist term. Some of us have trouble with numbers and your casual use of this word only reinforces societal stereotypes and bias. You need to check your numbered privilege.

The idea that people get to determine what is offensive or not offensive is confusing and worrying. People get to understand what is offensive or not as they grow up, and someone throwing them for a loop with something most people do not find offensive is ridiculous. I'd defend your right to be offended or not, but I might try to talk you down from it, or at least understand where you're coming from to get a better understanding before I disregard it. But I see a lot of people get offended at nothing all the time, and I am not going to worry about people getting offended at the drop of a hat by something that is not meant offensively. Obviously, you have to guage things, but basing an army off of something nobody finds offensive should not be offensive. Basing it off racist caricatures would be completely different. I'm of English/Irish descent. Let's see, orks in general speak guttural Cockney, or something similar and as a previous poster suggested, are meant to represent Irish caricatures. Am I offended? No.

 yeri wrote:
yes but comedy makes for the most palatable honesty. and I do need to get these guys painted

EDIT: just remembered why I don't paint my guys here either. this broom closet I call a dorm room only has one place to put a desk, and it's not a good desk to paint on. gives me a back ache every time I try to get anything substantial done. had to use a heating pad after I tried to paint my big mek


Automatically Appended Next Post:
hey I ran into the first guy again, and I finally figured out what his problem was: he's one of those uyoku dantai guys, and apparently a serious hothead according to the other exchange students. he read about my grandpa's experience with kamikazes on another thread over my shoulder in the cafeteria, and he was not amused in the least bit. he is apparently from a samurai family and socks me in the back of the head claiming it is his right of Kiri-sute gomen. one of my new Japanese friends told me what Kiri-sute gomen is, and I decided that if he was going to pull ancestral rank, then so was I. in an act that would make Arigorn applaud I announced for the entire cafeteria to hear my lineage back to William the Conqueror and declared that I was of noble blood equal if not greater than his (true by the way, I can trace my lineage back to William the Conqueror through the house of Lancaster and the house of Plantagenet thanks to my grandma's pet project of researching her family tree). well he starts smirking and challenges me to Ketto, which I accept, and seeing as we are on American soil, American dueling rules apply (the challenged gets to pick the weapon, I picked bare hands) he never laid a finger on me, I was too quick, but I didn't lay a finger on him either. I just wore him out while campus security came to break it up. I swear I'm going to be telling my kids about this one someday

Great story! I would probably be saying otherwise had you actually hit him but this was hilarious. (feel free to call me a bad person if you feel that reaction is inappropriate but I wont lie) The fact that you were able to come back with a similarly ridiculous (and true no less) claim makes the story, definitely tell your kids about this one.

Ok. I glossed over "anime Orks" and I can't get the images of Orks dragging around swords too big to lift, trying to punch through armored hulls because they believe they can, trying to drills as close combat weapons, and finally trying to make a gunsword (Dakka-Choppy) and blowing their hands to bits.

 Valhalla130 wrote:
I'd defend your right to be offended or not, but I might try to talk you down from it, or at least understand where you're coming from to get a better understanding before I disregard it. But I see a lot of people get offended at nothing all the time, and I am not going to worry about people getting offended at the drop of a hat by something that is not meant offensively.

Exalted as the clearest explanation that many people can understand why someone else is offended and still disagree on whether it is worth changing to meet that person's expectations because of a difference in opinion on whether the offense really matters.

 Savageconvoy wrote:
Ok. I glossed over "anime Orks" and I can't get the images of Orks dragging around swords too big to lift, trying to punch through armored hulls because they believe they can, trying to drills as close combat weapons, and finally trying to make a gunsword (Dakka-Choppy) and blowing their hands to bits.

of course with the WAAAGH field all those thing become probable if enough orks believe it to be so. I refer you to the story in my blog where Prince Yamamoto describes his sword as making him "Invincible" because of a saint's thumb bone in it, he's at least got the effect right, but not the cause.

EDIT:

Tekik wrote:

 yeri wrote:
yes but comedy makes for the most palatable honesty. and I do need to get these guys painted

EDIT: just remembered why I don't paint my guys here either. this broom closet I call a dorm room only has one place to put a desk, and it's not a good desk to paint on. gives me a back ache every time I try to get anything substantial done. had to use a heating pad after I tried to paint my big mek


Automatically Appended Next Post:
hey I ran into the first guy again, and I finally figured out what his problem was: he's one of those uyoku dantai guys, and apparently a serious hothead according to the other exchange students. he read about my grandpa's experience with kamikazes on another thread over my shoulder in the cafeteria, and he was not amused in the least bit. he is apparently from a samurai family and socks me in the back of the head claiming it is his right of Kiri-sute gomen. one of my new Japanese friends told me what Kiri-sute gomen is, and I decided that if he was going to pull ancestral rank, then so was I. in an act that would make Arigorn applaud I announced for the entire cafeteria to hear my lineage back to William the Conqueror and declared that I was of noble blood equal if not greater than his (true by the way, I can trace my lineage back to William the Conqueror through the house of Lancaster and the house of Plantagenet thanks to my grandma's pet project of researching her family tree). well he starts smirking and challenges me to Ketto, which I accept, and seeing as we are on American soil, American dueling rules apply (the challenged gets to pick the weapon, I picked bare hands) he never laid a finger on me, I was too quick, but I didn't lay a finger on him either. I just wore him out while campus security came to break it up. I swear I'm going to be telling my kids about this one someday

Great story! I would probably be saying otherwise had you actually hit him but this was hilarious. (feel free to call me a bad person if you feel that reaction is inappropriate but I wont lie) The fact that you were able to come back with a similarly ridiculous (and true no less) claim makes the story, definitely tell your kids about this one.

I just realized something: the second he allowed American dueling rules, allowing me to pick the method of duel, I should have yanked the guy's chain even more by declaring the weapons to be: "children's card games on motorcycles" but at the time I was channeling Bruce Lee in this scene:

hands_miranda wrote:

BluntmanDC wrote:
The problems with this is:
If a 'minority' person made an negative stereotypical remark about a white european it would still be racist and bigotry.
Other cultures, no matter how small, have a 'bad' side, for example, Zulus, a group of people under continual pressure by the goverment look down on tribes that do not own cattle and will use watering holes used by bushmen for their cattle effectivly making it unuseable for the bushmen.

Just going from the sociology stuff I did in school, this is wrong. The outgroup hating back isn't normally considered racism because of the power inequality. Also, it's missing the idea that power is relative to a society (i.e. who has power in a society and thus who has privilege is relative.) But that's not a discussion really for a gaming forum. The discussion should be back with the point that those in power don't get to decide what is offensive for those in an outgroup. My suggestions are good ones, but if someone's doesn't like your stereotypical protrayal of their race/country, it's your problem, not theirs

This is probably the most rediculous statement i have read on this forum in a 'is this offensive thread'. By this arguement you believe that if a white person made this army in a majority white country he would be rasist, but if the same white person made the army in japan (where he would be a minority) he wouldn't be racist, he would just be 'fighting the man'.

I think most of us can agree: Racism is racism.

 BluntmanDC wrote:

hands_miranda wrote:

BluntmanDC wrote:
The problems with this is:
If a 'minority' person made an negative stereotypical remark about a white european it would still be racist and bigotry.
Other cultures, no matter how small, have a 'bad' side, for example, Zulus, a group of people under continual pressure by the goverment look down on tribes that do not own cattle and will use watering holes used by bushmen for their cattle effectivly making it unuseable for the bushmen.

Just going from the sociology stuff I did in school, this is wrong. The outgroup hating back isn't normally considered racism because of the power inequality. Also, it's missing the idea that power is relative to a society (i.e. who has power in a society and thus who has privilege is relative.) But that's not a discussion really for a gaming forum. The discussion should be back with the point that those in power don't get to decide what is offensive for those in an outgroup. My suggestions are good ones, but if someone's doesn't like your stereotypical protrayal of their race/country, it's your problem, not theirs

This is probably the most rediculous statement i have read on this forum in a 'is this offensive thread'. By this arguement you believe that if a white person made this army in a majority white country he would be rasist, but if the same white person made the army in japan (where he would be a minority) he wouldn't be racist, he would just be 'fighting the man'.

Haha yeah basically. Although I'm expecting the same person to reply, "oh but if they're white they're ALWAYS racist!". So no matter what you lose.
Also I'd like to bring to attention this statement:

The outgroup hating back isn't normally considered racism because of the power inequality.

That's just wrong. So very wrong. Racism is racism no matter what. But of course, if hands_miranda must be right if he/she learned it in a sociology class with a bleeding heart liberal professor who hates him/herself! That's the only way!

I hate to be a downer on this topic, but technically if someone was offended then yes, your army is offensive.

I don't believe you created the army with any malicious intent whatsoever, but that's just the nature of things.

I know it's not the same thing, but as an example: most people might think it's fine to dress as Pocahontes or whatever for Hallowe'en, but there are people that find that offensive. It basically comes down to a view that others are attempting to trivialise your culture, by 'dressing up' as your ancestors, or in this case, sculpting some plastic models.

Generally though, this is not close to the same as Nazi Guard, as the Samurai culture still sees a lot of romanticism in pop culture, even coming out of Japan.

As a white, male, descendant of Englishmen, my very nature is offensive to a large portion of other races and women in my own country. Am I offensive?

I hate to be a downer on this topic, but technically if someone was offended then yes, your army is offensive.

I'm sorry but no, that is not how it works, being offended is a standard feeling can feel based on personal dislikes, traits, cultural means, or whatever. It does not have to mean the object in question is actually offensive. Otherwise everything under the sun itself could be offensive, including the fact people are offended by the thought we have such a bland name for our solar systems big star.

One can feel offended by someone wearing light bits of cologne the same as if someone doesn't mind if someone has some extreme Bad odor. Most offensive cases are usually cultural in tone, a permitted level of tolerance for some things as well as intolerance for others, but unless you are actively trying, or do something offensive based on past cultural experiences, it usually isn't offensive.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

I hate to be a downer on this topic, but technically if someone was offended then yes, your army is offensive.

I'm sorry but no, that is not how it works, being offended is a standard feeling can feel based on personal dislikes, traits, cultural means, or whatever. It does not have to mean the object in question is actually offensive. Otherwise everything under the sun itself could be offensive, including the fact people are offended by the thought we have such a bland name for our solar systems big star.

One can feel offended by someone wearing light bits of cologne the same as if someone doesn't mind if someone has some extreme Bad odor. Most offensive cases are usually cultural in tone, a permitted level of tolerance for some things as well as intolerance for others, but unless you are actively trying, or do something offensive based on past cultural experiences, it usually isn't offensive.

You are confusing the many definitions of 'offensive' there. Something being offensive to your senses (like a smell), or being offensive as in annoying (like your ridiculous sun example) share only a name with offence in a racial context. Talking about a 'permitted level of tolerence' is a slippery slope, and no, you do not have to be actively trying to be offensive to actually be offensive. Take, for example, the countless white people that think it's okay to dress up in blackface every hallowe'en.

Back on the original topic, before it gets derailed by others seeking to nitpick at a single phrase out of a complete reply: I think that you have to be prepared for the fact, with any depiction of another culture, that you may be offending others. I don't think there was malice behind your actions, and maybe the other guy was just trying to pick a fight and found an 'in', but yes, it is possible that your army is offensive to others. Sorry.

 yeri wrote:
About a week ago I had an encounter that has been puzzling me ever since, and it would be nice if someone could clarify it.
Right before I went home on break I was showing some of my samurai orks to my friend when one of the exchange students from Japan overheard me talking about them. He approached us and went on a tirade on how my army was offensive to him. I just don't understand why. I'm not saying my orks are Japanese people, but that they crash landed on a samurai planet and decided they liked the hats and armor. I was trying to create a fusion of opposites with this army for comedy purposes. Could someone please explain to me what was making this guy so mad so I can try to fix it if I can. I don't want to offend people, I just want to have fun, but making people mad subtracts from my enjoyment, so I'd like to fix what I can.

I'd say they're offensive. I mean, they're orks. Normally if they don't try for the table, they wind up losing. It's hard to play a static gunline with them.

If you can pull it off though, more power to you.

Well, considering that many of the original ideas of 40K were meant to be blatantly offensive (Orks being stereotyped Germans and/or lower class Brits), The Imperium being a very thinly veiled allegory for the Catholic Church, etc etc, I would not worry about it too much if I were you. Also, awesome way to out troll a troll!

Just jumping into the WW2 aspect here , Stalin was by far worse then Hitler just had a more effective ( equally brutal ) way of doing it , WW2 Nazi Germany is filled well into the imperiums style , Cadian shock troops with their zealousness and miltary upbringing very similar to the hitler youth , Mordian Iron guard almost matching perfectly with Germany's Prussian superiority background . The inqusitions Gestapo like tactics with apprehension and dealing with heritics, xenos and the like . To say that warhammer dosnt have a Very NAZI. Influenced background is plain ignorance - More on topic if the jap is offended the. Just have him frak off , it should only be truelynoffensive if it's ment in that manner.
Just my 2 Reich marks

 Kasrkin229 wrote:
Just jumping into the WW2 aspect here , Stalin was by far worse then Hitler just had a more effective ( equally brutal ) way of doing it , WW2 Nazi Germany is filled well into the imperiums style , Cadian shock troops with their zealousness and miltary upbringing very similar to the hitler youth , Mordian Iron guard almost matching perfectly with Germany's Prussian superiority background . The inqusitions Gestapo like tactics with apprehension and dealing with heritics, xenos and the like . To say that warhammer dosnt have a Very NAZI. Influenced background is plain ignorance - More on topic if the jap is offended the. Just have him frak off , it should only be truelynoffensive if it's ment in that manner.
Just my 2 Reich marks

Imperial Guard - Just like any regular armed force -Just embiggened.

The Inquisition - Just like the Inquisition.

The Promulgation of the Imperial creed - Any secular society - Totalitarian regime.

Remember Nazi = National Socialist party ideology. There are influences form all of history in the 40k universe

Yep, and calling him a "Jap" is probably way more offensive than the army he was upset about.

Also, just because there are elements from throughout history in 40K that relate to the darker aspects of humanity, doesn't necessarily only equate to "Nazi." Like the last poster said, the Inquisition is very much like the real-life Inquisition. The Imperium is very much like a lot of real life totalitarian regimes, regarldess of the country they come from. Valhallans look like German/Russian soldiers from WWII. Should i stop playing them because they look similar? No. I can celebrate the men who fought, without agreeing with the government they fought for. Besides. Russians were cool, and right bastards. They could fight, and that's what I'm celebrating by playing this army.