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The good news is that you should be able to do quite well on eBay - I imagine that initially the Kickstarter pledge auctions will do VERY well on there...

 Alpharius wrote:
The good news is that you should be able to do quite well on eBay - I imagine that initially the Kickstarter pledge auctions will do VERY well on there...

Hopefully that's the case, so I can recoup my investment, including the imminent customs.

The bad news - I somehow doubt there is going to be high demand for a resin Phoenix :/

 -DE- wrote:


All this KS has taught me is to never participate in another KS, ever. It's all the downsides for me, foreseen and unforeseen, in exchange for a measly discount, if that. Not worth the time and money versus buying available product from a store.

Well, delays and future painful customs bill aside, at least we weren't lied to, misled or treated like idiots, unlike some how some companies feel like going about a KS.

 cincydooley wrote:

Really? Could you elaborate? With a bigger image this time, to help get the point across.

Well, delays and future painful customs bill aside, at least we weren't lied to, misled or treated like idiots, unlike some how some companies feel like going about a KS.

I've heard about AvP.

Not a backer of that one, though I did back one by a small French company that does overly stylistic female military models.

Since we're off topic, anyway - I'd be pretty pissed had I backed Warzone, having paid close to what the models sell for in online stores and received vastly inferior sculpts. Or backed Kings of War and got Basileans. Or Relic Knights and got malformed, featureless PVC... objects. I could go on... Ah, the wonders of miniature kickstarters.

I think he was talking about someone else!

Still, he has a good point - the excellent communication, updates, previews and upgraded end result have made it worth it!

Well, at least for me it has!

I've got faith that this one will deliver on the quality however.

Dang, well at least he has honestly said it will be Q3 next year (I've never seen a campaign that says "June/July" hit the first month in the guess).

Those pics from the update are stunning, though. The only disappointment for me is the Lion armor, since it looked much better during the campaign... I guess it was not moldable.

It is somewhat similar to Dreamforge for me, and I think the whole thing has been a learning experience for creators and backers. Polystyrene plastic parts from injection molds is a long and expensive process, and funding TONS of molds at once might not be the best path forward in the future. It will make an incredible product, but getting it years late isn't worth the tradeoff for me. I was thrilled with my resin Dreamforge Leviathans, for instance - and I had those in early 2012! Paid more, but was actually able to use them...

All that said, I have several friends really interested in Kingdom Death, so those who want to recoup their investment after it delivers should have an easy time of it.

Perhaps when folks open the packages they receive, they'll be awe struck by what they find inside and decide to keep the contents.

I've known folks who have done that more than a few times with Kickstarters...

Yes, it's very easy to get discouraged by a delay especially when the rush of the campaign is so long ago. For instance Dreamforge, as RiTides mentioned, is horribly delayed as well. I recall being quite annoyed that we reached February of 2013 before Wave 1 hit, but once I actually had the kits on hand it was a completely different story and they're some of my favorite models now. Likewise the wait for Wave 3 has been awful, but at the same time everything I've seen of the final product shows that they are top-notch quality. The wait may make me grumble and grouse, but the rational part of me knows that once plastic is in hand all of that will fade away.

Some other campaigns have taken forever, and then deliver results that are...lackluster. Alternately, I've seen a few where they just flat-out break promises made to their backers or just ignore them entirely. None of that has happened here, and I do believe Adam will deliver the best experience possible.

However, delayed gratification is really not my thing, which is why I too have tried to curtail my KS habits.

Guys, I backed KD:M at the Herald level and I'm mostly OK with the KS. I love the look of Spidicules and the Dragon King, and think they will be awesome to play with. Really, the product looks to be truly amazing stuff. KD:M is definitely raising the bar with what we can expect in plastic.

That said, no, I'm not totally happy with the delay. IMO, this game, of all games, could have used a stronger manager to prioritize and push things out the door. And there should have been a tactical decision to do multiple waves of product, so that resins could have shipped Holiday 2013, the base box would have been out for summer of 2014, and the rest for holiday 2014-summer 2015. Had the product been ready, I'm sure a lot of people would have paid for multiple waves of shipping.

OTOH, it does look like KD:M will complete all of its stretch goals before Ogre DE does, so there is that dubious honor of not being the most completely overdue KS.

But that's all shoulda, coulda, woulda over the dam and under the bridge... It's a good thing I was able to keep busy with other stuff while I've been waiting.

I'm pretty much not backing anything that's KSed and using WGF as a partner. Not to say I'm very bitter but I haven't received anything from a WGF KS, including DFG because I backed for valkir troopers -_-. It's an even bet whether this or DFG will show up on my doorstep first

I backed DFG and have an assembled 28mm Leviathan Crusader that I've been playing as a Warhound Titan. GREAT kit!

I think WGF at this point is done with KS as well for the time being.

To expand why the delays aren't really bothering me, besides actually communicating what's going on, Adam keeps doing things like this...
"I'm sorry things are taking so long, but I DOUBLED the size of the core game..."
"More delays, but I'm throwing in some free bits and heads..."
"Guys and gals I'm really sorry, here's another model for this expansion..."
"More delays inbound, but I expanded the AI for all the encounters in the core game and expansions..."
It's like the longer it's delayed, the better it gets from what I pledged for in the first place.

How many heads and weapons do we really need? We're already getting a hundred or so models (or I am, anyway), so at this stage I do not need or want more. I just want the damn box.

If it's KD heads and weapons? As many as I can get.

 Sinful Hero wrote:
To expand why the delays aren't really bothering me, besides actually communicating what's going on, Adam keeps doing things like this...
"I'm sorry things are taking so long, but I DOUBLED the size of the core game..."
"More delays, but I'm throwing in some free bits and heads..."
"Guys and gals I'm really sorry, here's another model for this expansion..."
"More delays inbound, but I expanded the AI for all the encounters in the core game and expansions..."
It's like the longer it's delayed, the better it gets from what I pledged for in the first place.

The question, to me, when he says stuff like this is:

Is that actually true, or are the sentences actually reversed....

I DOUBLED the size of the core game, so "I'm sorry things are taking so long"
I'm throwing in some free bits and heads...so here are More delays.
"I expanded the AI for all the encounters in the core game and expansions...so More delays inbound "

If I was a gambling man, I'd say that's more likely the issue here. The original scope of this project was completely shat upon and discarded, and when you let so much creep and expansion happen, it's inevitable that there will be delays.

Lots of people don't like on KS when a campaign "fizzles" at the end because all of the planned KS goals have been met, but the ones that don't have people "chasing" last goals are the ones that tend to ship closer to on time because the project was better managed.

I'm not unhappy, but I think we should be realistic and not place all the blame on WGF.

Aye, adding more stuff is always neat, but won't that add even more production time to the final product?

 BrookM wrote:
Aye, adding more stuff is always neat, but won't that add even more production time to the final product?

Depends. He added a lot of paper content (AI cards, actual scenarios/encounters for things that didn't have them before) which didn't slow the project at all, because he was still waiting on the plastic kits. Likewise, the changes made after playtesting didn't change anything because they were waiting on plastic.

The only thing that may have lengthened the process was when he added new bits to open space on sprues that were not in production yet (like the Slenderman fiddle etc). But overall, after they were sculpted (during the ensuing wait for plastic) would it have added that much time to the tooling process? Of that I am unsure.

Right, and while it's great that the original backers are getting this enormous "Monster" of a project for their original pledges, the end result is going to be a $250 board game with multiple $50-$100 expansions that very few people outside of the backers are going to be able to play. Not even counting how people are going to store and organise all these giant decks of cards, individual rulebooks and the like.

Personally, I think it will be an amazing, luxurious experience that I will have difficulty convincing friends to try or stick with and will see 2-3 play sessions in its lifetime. But will be an amazing painting project.

Also, I'm glad that people are still really pumped over the project 2 years on, but time for delivery very much is a factor. Aside from impatience, people's situations change - they move house (possibly to somewhere with less space), relationships end, people move away, have children, or die. The further away you get from the original proposed endpoint, the less likely people's personal situations are going to match what they were when they pledged.

I am really, really impressed with everything I've seen so far though, and perhaps boardgames deserve a few more mad grand follies.

Bioptic wrote:
Also, I'm glad that people are still really pumped over the project 2 years on, but time for delivery very much is a factor. Aside from impatience, people's situations change - they move house (possibly to somewhere with less space), relationships end, people move away, have children, or die. The further away you get from the original proposed endpoint, the less likely people's personal situations are going to match what they were when they pledged.

When I pledged for this I had no kids. Now I have 4!

 BrookM wrote:
I think WGF at this point is done with KS as well for the time being.

WGF is simply building for DFG, KD, Wyrd, etc. They do great work, so I'm sure other "boutique" KS will continue to use them. If I were to want my designs realized in plastic, and I had the budget, WGF would be at the top of my list of manufacturers.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 cincydooley wrote:

Is that actually true, or are the sentences actually reversed....

I DOUBLED the size of the core game, so "I'm sorry things are taking so long"
I'm throwing in some free bits and heads...so here are More delays.
"I expanded the AI for all the encounters in the core game and expansions...so More delays inbound "

If I was a gambling man, I'd say that's more likely the issue here. The original scope of this project was completely shat upon and discarded, and when you let so much creep and expansion happen, it's inevitable that there will be delays.

Lots of people don't like on KS when a campaign "fizzles" at the end because all of the planned KS goals have been met, but the ones that don't have people "chasing" last goals are the ones that tend to ship closer to on time because the project was better managed.

I'm not unhappy, but I think we should be realistic and not place all the blame on WGF.

I tend to agree with this assessment. KD:M has a certain amount of "unrestrained artistry" here, with a lack of editorial control. With an editor, someone says, you know, we don't need 10 heads, 3 or 4 will be enough - just keep the best ones, and leave the rest for a future expansion. That editor says, a set of 60 cards is plenty to start, save the other 40 for the expansion. Pick the best, the most distinctive, and move on. Versus throwing everything in the box. While Adam says that adding stuff it didn't add time, I doubt that very much - time was still spent on layout, proofing, etc.

Had KD:M simply pushed to get the base game in backer hands by December 2013, I think everyone would look at this as an unqualified success, with minimal griping over the delays for the remaining pieces still in production.

I don't really blame WGF. People go to them with *very* ambitious projects, things that push the state of the art. Those things take time to do "right", and by all indications, WGF delivers. Case in point: DFG's Leviathan Crusader. Mark committed to tooling as soon as he was sure the project would fund to allow production. The Crusaders shipped a few months late in Q1 2013, and people routinely rave over it. Granted that the subsequent waves of DFG product have been running very late, but the quality is there.

 cincydooley wrote:

 Sinful Hero wrote:
To expand why the delays aren't really bothering me, besides actually communicating what's going on, Adam keeps doing things like this...
"I'm sorry things are taking so long, but I DOUBLED the size of the core game..."
"More delays, but I'm throwing in some free bits and heads..."
"Guys and gals I'm really sorry, here's another model for this expansion..."
"More delays inbound, but I expanded the AI for all the encounters in the core game and expansions..."
It's like the longer it's delayed, the better it gets from what I pledged for in the first place.

The question, to me, when he says stuff like this is:

Is that actually true, or are the sentences actually reversed....

I DOUBLED the size of the core game, so "I'm sorry things are taking so long"
I'm throwing in some free bits and heads...so here are More delays.
"I expanded the AI for all the encounters in the core game and expansions...so More delays inbound "

If I was a gambling man, I'd say that's more likely the issue here. The original scope of this project was completely shat upon and discarded, and when you let so much creep and expansion happen, it's inevitable that there will be delays.

Lots of people don't like on KS when a campaign "fizzles" at the end because all of the planned KS goals have been met, but the ones that don't have people "chasing" last goals are the ones that tend to ship closer to on time because the project was better managed.

I'm not unhappy, but I think we should be realistic and not place all the blame on WGF.

+1.

Well put, there- my instinct is there's at least a bit of truth to that hypothesis.

 spiralingcadaver wrote:

Spoiler:

 cincydooley wrote:

 Sinful Hero wrote:
To expand why the delays aren't really bothering me, besides actually communicating what's going on, Adam keeps doing things like this...
"I'm sorry things are taking so long, but I DOUBLED the size of the core game..."
"More delays, but I'm throwing in some free bits and heads..."
"Guys and gals I'm really sorry, here's another model for this expansion..."
"More delays inbound, but I expanded the AI for all the encounters in the core game and expansions..."
It's like the longer it's delayed, the better it gets from what I pledged for in the first place.

The question, to me, when he says stuff like this is:

Is that actually true, or are the sentences actually reversed....

I DOUBLED the size of the core game, so "I'm sorry things are taking so long"
I'm throwing in some free bits and heads...so here are More delays.
"I expanded the AI for all the encounters in the core game and expansions...so More delays inbound "

If I was a gambling man, I'd say that's more likely the issue here. The original scope of this project was completely shat upon and discarded, and when you let so much creep and expansion happen, it's inevitable that there will be delays.

Lots of people don't like on KS when a campaign "fizzles" at the end because all of the planned KS goals have been met, but the ones that don't have people "chasing" last goals are the ones that tend to ship closer to on time because the project was better managed.

I'm not unhappy, but I think we should be realistic and not place all the blame on WGF.

+1.

Well put, there- my instinct is there's at least a bit of truth to that hypothesis.

I would go with a "bit" of truth there, but not much more than that.

Based on their performance with DFG, WGF has some serious issues with production scheduling. I'm not well-versed on the topic, but my suspicion is that they are struggling to budget engineering time adequately between all their various projects due to the somewhat bizarre nature of multi-part miniatures compared to say, a Happy Meal toy. As a result, I think they are not completing phases like they thought they would be, which has a knock-on effect as they switch gears due to contracts or other requirements and have to keep circling back all the while juggling their own internal lines and anything else the factory is making that is not related to miniatures. That dates seem to continually slip on production points at this being at least partially an issue.

In both of the mentioned projects, months have passed where no progress was made on kits that has been reported. Factor in how involved the process actually is as well as how sometimes engineers make some very...unfortunate decisions which then have to be corrected in back-and-forth sessions over the course of weeks (time zones, schedules, etc.) and it's not hard to see where there is a lot of dead air in the overall project due to the plastic production cycle. In DFG's case, the project is the models, so there's nothing else to work on other than instructions and art. With this project, there's tons of things to work on, and I suspect the truth is more that Adam is filling the deadtime with something to feel "productive" more as a distraction from how undoubtedly frustrating it is to NOT be done with this. When you're a Type A workaholic, waiting around on a process that was described as a "negotiation" with a factory on the other side of the world would undoubtedly be maddening, especially as months rolled by.

Did the stuff he add put more time into the project? Sure, because that's basically a requirement of the physical world. Was it time that lengthened the project? Probably not, because this is a multi-branch proejct and it's likely the critical path through the plastic production would still be where it is at.

Hey JohnHwang, who is the girl in your avatar? Sorry, but in a Kingdom Death thread I don't really see that question as off -topic

I think you can reverse Google image search her.

So, random thoughts…

-Yes, I agree, if it said 2016 -- Still woulda backed it.
-I think this will be a horse with a strong finish… I think the only thing Adam has (slightly) overlooked is the promised T-shirts (Must have realized it this Black Friday, since the bundles DID NOT include 'em!!). It won't fizzle out like others.
-There was definitely SCOPE CREEP, but come on… when he's been waiting for tools to wrap-up, at least he was putting effort BACK into the game and not working on "KD:H," new expansions, etc. Yeah, there have been new monsters, models and pinups all the like, but if KD sits still, it'll be hell to get that train back on the tracks. Gotta keep those artists pumping out concepts, sculpts, etc… I bet the lead time on some of the resin production is anywhere from 6-9 months between shipping the Master sculpt, making the moulds, and building the run, shipping to the US, printing cards / art, boxing, and finally listing for sale.
-Yeah, if this ISN'T the definitive coop survival-horror SMASH hit of the century, there will be bunched-up panties the world over… The plus side is, the plastics will be beautiful, and plenty of folks will paint / convert / etc. drive demand for those needing to unload.
-Unhappy backers will probably have an easy time unloading this stuff… especially after Reviews start going up. Especially on the Core Game. Paid ~$100, and the MSRP is $200-300…. It'll be easy to make your cost and then some--Which would be FAR more than if you had put this in the savings all that time ago...
-EU / ROW shipping: If you luck out, and he can figure out a customs free way to get this to you, then, HUZZAH! If not, well, it wasn't like this fact was hidden when you backed it! Caveat Emptor.
-Adding a few weapons onto a sprue (the 3x added to Slenderman) here-and-there, didn't add countless hours of time reviewing. Especially back when these were being proofed, there was still a mountain of plastics to tool and approve! Of course, peppering the whole dish here and there added time. YES. But a few drops in the bucket overall. Probably the SINGLE biggest time sink was the issue with all of the male armor kits (arm sockets?) not being compatible with the others and all of the male kits had to be adjusted to fix that oversight.
-While I wish we could have gotten the Core first, there must have been a convoluted plan for how to tool everything. It seems like there was a drive to do the monsters & pinup / promos first, and a lot of the Armor Kits went last (and seem to be the most tedious and labor-intensive with all of the bits).
-Speaking of life events changing, I think someone mentioned on the KS comments "according to the CDC, 12 people will have perished before receiving their pledges"


--I think that this project was just so huge, it went from "simple game, fun concept, maybe a few stretch goals," to a bonanza of pinups, expansions and sculpts, and while Adam has been communicative and shows proof of development, I think there has been some opportunity to better address the concerns of the backers. There were a few windows (esp. this summer) where there were massive lulls in communication (which was addressed with SBT), but to me, the single greatest disappointment in the management of this entire project is the fact that many of the failed fulfillment goals, were BLATANTLY not going to happen on time.

When he secured the plastics plant (WGF) it was late May '13. Target fulfillment TO backers was still Nov '13. To tool, approve and produce 70-80 TOOLS alone, in that time frame, is practically impossible. Especially with the number of bits on each one! The Update announcing the delay, was, reactive… not proactive. Proactive would have been in the June Update: "Guys, great news, got a producer and they're pumped and it's a pet project. (as stated) …but, reality is, this probably will NOT ship in Nov, and almost definitely before / until Q1 '14." Same thing with the next (and next delay). From Adam's perspective, he could see the ends would not meet, not even close. He should have been more forthcoming with that information.

----Consider this, It'll take an entire QUARTER for this: Producing plastics, shipping to the second factory in China, then getting loaded on a boat and shipping to the States, clearance thru customs, delivery to KD, getting warehoused, organized / slotted, building boxes (rules, sprues, cards, etc), etc. before it'll even start to ship to backers. Not trying to fault Adam, for this is certainly a Herculean undertaking, but come on… Transparency is seeing that. Especially as soon as he saw that. Waiting until the week of fulfillment to share it'll be 6+ more months is crappy. At least the 3rd time, he shelved the ETA to curtail further butt-hurt (which caused a whole different kind).

That's really my only criticism of his management technique: Earlier acknowledgement of delays. Heck, after the campaign funded… even a short, 1 paragraph note about that: "Wow, we funded over $2M. We'll probably be looking at an early 2014 delivery at the soonest, but it'll depend when we find the plastics manufacturer..."




BUT…. All sides considered: Yes, this will wrap up and ship as one (unlike Ogre, Myth, WoK, etc, etc, etc), so we shouldn't be awaiting delayed and fumbled wave after wave…. Hey, at least this isn't Up Front. Or The Doom That Came to Atlantic City. We will see this. Even if we're old, gray, and grandparents… (my son was born mid-campaign, he's TWO on Wednesday! He should be talking by the time this arrives… "Mama, Dada got a BIG box… Dumpster sized." …. "Hey, honey…." "(Gulp), ….yeah?"

(BTW, Sorry if you were _secretly_ holding out hope for Up Front. I'm not the first to burst your bubble, I hope…)
Oh, and espresso takes, short, shotgun facts, and gives me ramble on powers...