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Well, as it says in the title really...

Epidemus gets his tally up, and all followers of nurgle get Noxius Touch.

Sure the Marines of Nurgle have it, but can they use it?

I lean toward yes, but the wording of noxious touch makes it a bit ambiguous. Worth double-checking with the organizer if you're going to be in a tournament or league.

Is that the one that says "The daemon"? A lot of the daemons and marine books do not work together. Icons, most internal powers. Can't join units.

I honestly don't know why they bothered to make them battle brothers.

Than I suppose if it's a Daemon it can use Noxious Touch.
However non-daemons cannot. Seems pretty clear.

 Mannahnin wrote:
I lean toward yes, but the wording of noxious touch makes it a bit ambiguous. Worth double-checking with the organizer if you're going to be in a tournament or league.

i lean towards yes also. But i can see the other side of the argument as well.

Things like mutilators and oblits could definately, however for the others since it specifically says demon I would say no.

 Mannahnin wrote:
I lean toward yes, but the wording of noxious touch makes it a bit ambiguous. Worth double-checking with the organizer if you're going to be in a tournament or league.

40k-noob wrote:

 Mannahnin wrote:
I lean toward yes, but the wording of noxious touch makes it a bit ambiguous. Worth double-checking with the organizer if you're going to be in a tournament or league.

i lean towards yes also. But i can see the other side of the argument as well.

Is there any reason why?

Noxious touch states "The Daemons CC Attacks"

Because every model with the mark of nurgle is supposed to gain it, and that'd be pointless if they can't use it.

"The daemon's cc attacks" reflects the fact that only daemons could possibly gain it at the time it was published.

It would have been FAQ'ed and GW seem pretty clear they don't like many cross codex shinanigans... I.e. Fateweaver not affecting Chaos Marines.

 Mannahnin wrote:
Because every model with the mark of nurgle is supposed to gain it, and that'd be pointless if they can't use it.

"The daemon's cc attacks" reflects the fact that only daemons could possibly gain it at the time it was published.

So what you're in fact saying is that the original intention was that every model from Codex:Chaos Daemons with mark of Nurgle is supposed to gain the benefits of Tally.

 Mannahnin wrote:
Because every model with the mark of nurgle is supposed to gain it, and that'd be pointless if they can't use it.

"The daemon's cc attacks" reflects the fact that only daemons could possibly gain it at the time it was published.

Even when it was published, Chaos Space Marines with the MON Could still get the gifts, so your point is incorrect.

 Bloodhorror wrote:


Even when it was published, Chaos Space Marines with the MON Could still get the gifts, so your point is incorrect.

Yes even before allies existed the tally worked for your opponent's army as well as yours.

Ide say yes... noxious touch mentions daemons but Epidemius's SPECIAL RULE gives all models with the MoN noxious touch. Hasn't it always been specific supersedes generic rules?

I'd say No.

Besides the fact that it is cheesy as hell for 100 cultists to be wounding on 2's and ignoring armour saves, the RAW of it is that most CSM units just aren't daemons (with a few exceptions mentioned above).

But as with all games 40K, talk about it first with your opponent and come to an agreement.


Basically, there was a similar case back in 5th Edition with the Grey Knight Dreadknight. He had nemesis doomfists, but the description for the DCCW is that "walkers" benefit from it. GW then FAQ'd the dreadknight as NOT being able to benefit from the DCCW's 2x Strength bonus because it was not a walker. (Of course this is no longer relevant now in 6E, but it gives you insight into GW's intent.)

 jy2 wrote:
I'd say No.

Besides the fact that it is cheesy as hell for 100 cultists to be wounding on 2's and ignoring armour saves, the RAW of it is that most CSM units just aren't daemons (with a few exceptions mentioned above).

But as with all games 40K, talk about it first with your opponent and come to an agreement.

That is if you can keep 100 6+ save cultist alive long enough to get your tally up to 20 then yes.

Mind you 100 cultist with MoN is 640pts. Plus Epi and at least one squad at minimum cost, bumps that up to 825pts for a gimick that only works after you get 20 kills with mark of nurgle models and actually manage to keep Epidimius alive.

Besides that your answer of no should not be based on whether you think it is cheesy or not. (respectively)

 jy2 wrote:



Basically, there was a similar case back in 5th Edition with the Grey Knight Dreadknight. He had nemesis doomfists, but the description for the DCCW is that "walkers" benefit from it. GW then FAQ'd the dreadknight as NOT being able to benefit from the DCCW's 2x Strength bonus because it was not a walker. (Of course this is no longer relevant now in 6E, but it gives you insight into GW's intent.)

This was removed from the faq in 6th edition.

825 isn't alot in an 1850 point list, especially considering what else you can get into that list....

The cultists are squishy though, and the benefit goes away if Epidemius gets killed. It's probably the nastiest combo possible using Chaos Space Marines, but that's not saying much...

 Tomb King wrote:

 jy2 wrote:
I'd say No.

Besides the fact that it is cheesy as hell for 100 cultists to be wounding on 2's and ignoring armour saves, the RAW of it is that most CSM units just aren't daemons (with a few exceptions mentioned above).

But as with all games 40K, talk about it first with your opponent and come to an agreement.

Besides that your answer of no should not be based on whether you think it is cheesy or not. (respectively)

This times a million.
Whether or not something is "Cheesy" is not a reliable compass to navigate these murky rumors with. I might think Typhus and his cultists charging their aegis defence lines is cheezy, but someone else might think it is supported by fluff.
Rules outcomes should be decided based on RAW. It is the only way to ensure neutral rulings, where as RAI brings in more opinions and baggage.

Neronoxx wrote:

 Tomb King wrote:

 jy2 wrote:
I'd say No.

Besides the fact that it is cheesy as hell for 100 cultists to be wounding on 2's and ignoring armour saves, the RAW of it is that most CSM units just aren't daemons (with a few exceptions mentioned above).

But as with all games 40K, talk about it first with your opponent and come to an agreement.

Besides that your answer of no should not be based on whether you think it is cheesy or not. (respectively)

This times a million.
Whether or not something is "Cheesy" is not a reliable compass to navigate these murky rumors with. I might think Typhus and his cultists charging their aegis defence lines is cheezy, but someone else might think it is supported by fluff.
Rules outcomes should be decided based on RAW. It is the only way to ensure neutral rulings, where as RAI brings in more opinions and baggage.

My intepretation is not based on fluff or how I feel. Read the rules for Noxious Touch and you will get your RAW.

I love it - jy2 presented a RAW answer preceded by "it's cheesy" and people jump on the cheese instead of the Rw.

The followers of nurgle have always benefited from noxious touch and the tally whether friend or foe. So this os how I will continue to plat it unless faq'd otherwise. Taking thr specific over general rule.

 Tomb King wrote:
The followers of nurgle have always benefited from noxious touch and the tally whether friend or foe. So this os how I will continue to plat it unless faq'd otherwise. Taking thr specific over general rule.

The fact that the rule specifies Daemons means nothing to you?

rigeld2 wrote:

 Tomb King wrote:
The followers of nurgle have always benefited from noxious touch and the tally whether friend or foe. So this os how I will continue to plat it unless faq'd otherwise. Taking thr specific over general rule.

The fact that the rule specifies Daemons means nothing to you?

General Rule:

Noxious Touch: The Daemon and its weapons are covered in the most lethal toxic substance, instantly infecting any flesh it touches. The Daemon's close combat attacks are poisoned, wounding on a 2+, as described in the warhammer 40k rulebook.

Special/Specific Rule:
The Tally of Pestilence: The followers of nurgle (i.e. any Daemon of Nurgle, or model with the mark of nurgle, both friends and enemies) anywhere on the table. At the start of each of your turns, consult the table below and determine the effect of the tally of pestilence. From the beginning of that turn, and as long as Epidemius is on the table, these cumulative bonuses affect ALL followers of Nurgle (friend and foe!).

10-14 ALL followers of Nurgle have noxious touch.

The general rule does not say only daemons get this or being daemon as a requirment for that matter. The specifi/special rule gives it to ALL followers of nurgle.. Hence ALL of them get it.

 Tomb King wrote:
The followers of nurgle have always benefited from noxious touch and the tally whether friend or foe. So this os how I will continue to plat it unless faq'd otherwise. Taking thr specific over general rule.

That only matters in the case of a conflict. Here, there is no conflict. Nurgle CSM units are still getting Noxious Touch, both friend and foe. However, having an ability and being able to use it are 2 different matters.

Like a Broodlord with a Witchfire psychic power.

Or a tervigon (Level 1 psyker) with Invisibility (2 Warp Charges).

Or a non-psyker Inquisitor with a Nemesis Daemon Hammer.

Just because you have something doesn't mean you can make the automatic assumption that you can always use it.

 jy2 wrote:

 Tomb King wrote:
The followers of nurgle have always benefited from noxious touch and the tally whether friend or foe. So this os how I will continue to plat it unless faq'd otherwise. Taking thr specific over general rule.

That only matters in the case of a conflict. Here, there is no conflict. Nurgle CSM units are still getting Noxious Touch, both friend and foe. However, having an ability and being able to use it are 2 different matters.

Like a Broodlord with a Witchfire psychic power.

Or a tervigon (Level 1 psyker) with Invisibility (2 Warp Charges).

Or a non-psyker Inquisitor with a Nemesis Daemon Hammer.

Just because you have something doesn't mean you can make the automatic assumption that you can always use it.

What again is preventing them from using it? Noxious touch does not require the model to be daemon. It merely mentions daemons using it in a Daemon codex. Nowhere does it list a requirement beyond having to be nurgle to receive it.

 Tomb King wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 Tomb King wrote:
The followers of nurgle have always benefited from noxious touch and the tally whether friend or foe. So this os how I will continue to plat it unless faq'd otherwise. Taking thr specific over general rule.

The fact that the rule specifies Daemons means nothing to you?

General Rule:

Noxious Touch: The Daemon and its weapons are covered in the most lethal toxic substance, instantly infecting any flesh it touches. The Daemon's close combat attacks are poisoned, wounding on a 2+, as described in the warhammer 40k rulebook.

Special/Specific Rule:
The Tally of Pestilence: The followers of nurgle (i.e. any Daemon of Nurgle, or model with the mark of nurgle, both friends and enemies) anywhere on the table. At the start of each of your turns, consult the table below and determine the effect of the tally of pestilence. From the beginning of that turn, and as long as Epidemius is on the table, these cumulative bonuses affect ALL followers of Nurgle (friend and foe!).

10-14 ALL followers of Nurgle have noxious touch.

The general rule does not say only daemons get this or being daemon as a requirment for that matter. The specifi/special rule gives it to ALL followers of nurgle.. Hence ALL of them get it.

That is extremely backwards..
If anything Tally is the general rule, once you get to the required number it then grants Noxious Touch (which would be the specific rule).

 grendel083 wrote:

 Tomb King wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 Tomb King wrote:
The followers of nurgle have always benefited from noxious touch and the tally whether friend or foe. So this os how I will continue to plat it unless faq'd otherwise. Taking thr specific over general rule.

The fact that the rule specifies Daemons means nothing to you?

General Rule:

Noxious Touch: The Daemon and its weapons are covered in the most lethal toxic substance, instantly infecting any flesh it touches. The Daemon's close combat attacks are poisoned, wounding on a 2+, as described in the warhammer 40k rulebook.

Special/Specific Rule:
The Tally of Pestilence: The followers of nurgle (i.e. any Daemon of Nurgle, or model with the mark of nurgle, both friends and enemies) anywhere on the table. At the start of each of your turns, consult the table below and determine the effect of the tally of pestilence. From the beginning of that turn, and as long as Epidemius is on the table, these cumulative bonuses affect ALL followers of Nurgle (friend and foe!).

10-14 ALL followers of Nurgle have noxious touch.

The general rule does not say only daemons get this or being daemon as a requirment for that matter. The specifi/special rule gives it to ALL followers of nurgle.. Hence ALL of them get it.

That is extremely backwards..
If anything Tally is the general rule, once you get to the required number it then grants Noxious Touch (which would be the specific rule).

Epidemius

Special Rules: Daemon, SnP, FnP, IC, and The Tally of Pestilence

How is the tally of pestilence a general rule?

@Tomb King

What you are doing is making a RAI argument.

The rules for Noxious Touch explicitly mentions daemons. CSM units like plague marines and havocs are NOT daemon units. What you are doing is assuming that because they get NT from the Tally, then they have permission to use it. That is only implied, not explicitly expressed.

In order for them to have explicit permission, the rules for the Tally would have to go "All units of Nurgle get and can benefit from NT whether they are daemons or not" or the rules for NT needs to be "The close-combat attacks of all units with NT are poisoned....".

 jy2 wrote:
@Tomb King

What you are doing is making a RAI argument.

The rules for Noxious Touch explicitly mentions daemons. CSM units like plague marines and havocs are NOT daemon units. What you are doing is assuming that because they get NT from the Tally, then they have permission to use it. That is only implied, not explicitly expressed.

In order for them to have explicit permission, the rules for the Tally would have to go "All units of Nurgle get and can benefit from NT whether they are daemons or not" or the rules for NT needs to be "The close-combat attacks of all units with NT are poisoned....".

lol alright and lets try this.

What you are doing is assuming that because it mentions daemons in noxious touch that even though it states all models get it from the tally that all models do not actually get it?

There are 3 arguments here:
1. Do all followers of nurgle daemon or not get noxious touch. (RAW and RAI both Yes)
2. Do you have to be a daemon to get noxious touch. (No rule states you do the only requirement is being a follower of nurgle.)
3. Does noxious touch grant poison 2+ to models? (Yes RAW and RAI) Do you have to be a Daemon to use noxious touch? (Nothing in the rule for noxious touch states this as a requirement).

Therefore to conclude: Does a model that has noxious touch wound on 2+ in CC? That is the question being currently argued. I would say most definitely yes. Unless an faq comes out saying that you have to be a daemon to benefit from the rule or that it only affects models in C:CD. Until then the rule grants a 2+ to wound in CC per RAW.

 Tomb King wrote:
How is the tally of pestilence a general rule?

Compared to Noxious Touch?
Tally grants bonuses. That's pretty general. What specific rule does it grant at 10-14? Noxious Touch.
If you want to go the General<Specific route, no way is Noxious Touch the general of the two.>