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Made in za
Fresh-Faced New User





HI guys, I think I’ve missed something huge and just needed to make sure.

Regarding the interceptor rule, it says this on page 38 in the Brb
“At the end of the enemy Movement phase, a weapon with the Interceptor special rule can be fired at any one unit that has arrived from reserve within its range and line of sight.”

Note “ARRIVED”, it doesn’t say end their move in range.


Ok, now its impossible for that quadgun to cover the whole table with its 48” range, one of your the corners will be out of range….a small bit, but still.

Ok, so does that mean if my Vandettas become available and I fly them up from my table edge and nominate that corner as the corner they arrive from and move them up, then the gun cant shoot them as they didn’t arrive in range but only ended their move in range?





   
Made in ie
Stern Iron Priest with Thrall Bodyguard





Ireland

I don't think you have parsed that right. I think it reads you get one pot shot at a unit that has come in from reserves. This unit must be within range and LOS.

It's not the size of the blade, it's how you use it.
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Made in za
Fresh-Faced New User





I quoted it exactly like it is in the book, as I said pg. 38 if you want to confirm.
   
Made in ie
Stern Iron Priest with Thrall Bodyguard





Ireland

Yes, you quoted it right but I disagree with how you read it. The shooting happens at the end of the phase, that is when you determine if the unit you shout at is in LOS and range.

It's not the size of the blade, it's how you use it.
2000+
1500+
2000+

For all YMDC arguements remember: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8vbd3E6tK2U

My blog: http://dublin-spot-check.blogspot.ie/ 
   
Made in za
Mutilatin' Mad Dok





Yeeaaaah, I think you may be reading a bit too much into it. At the end of the movement phase, you nominate one unit that arrived from reserves, and resolve a shooting attack as normal - using the unit's current positioning, not the positioning it used when it entered play.
   
Made in za
Fresh-Faced New User





Im not so sure,

Again “arriving” is not the same as end their move in range and los.

If you look at Coteaz with the same kind rule but in a 12” bubble, you wont get to shoot at a unit if you arrive outside of the 12” and then moved into it.
   
Made in ie
Stern Iron Priest with Thrall Bodyguard





Ireland

Yeah but coteaz happens immediately and has no limits on how many times you can do it. This is very different.

They two are similar in that you get to make an out of sequence shot but that is where the similarity ends.

It's not the size of the blade, it's how you use it.
2000+
1500+
2000+

For all YMDC arguements remember: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8vbd3E6tK2U

My blog: http://dublin-spot-check.blogspot.ie/ 
   
Made in za
Fresh-Faced New User





Still,

Arrive is not the same as End their move within range and Los.


   
Made in ie
Stern Iron Priest with Thrall Bodyguard





Ireland

I hate to sound rude but is English your first language?

The arrived is to denote what type of targets you may fire at, not where you measure range from. Nowhere in the interceptor rules does it change how you measure range in shooting.

It's not the size of the blade, it's how you use it.
2000+
1500+
2000+

For all YMDC arguements remember: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8vbd3E6tK2U

My blog: http://dublin-spot-check.blogspot.ie/ 
   
Made in au
[MOD]
Making Stuff






Under the couch

 Rift wrote:
Again “arriving” is not the same as end their move in range and los.

While you have a point on your reading of the rule, pulling it apart and looking at individual words doesn't help your argument.


What it comes down to is this:
'...can be fired at any one unit that has arrived from reserve within its range and line of sight.'

...is actually a very different statement to:

'...can be fired at any one unit that has arrived from reserve, within its range and line of sight.'

The latter would mean that the weapon has two conditions: The target must have arrived from reserve, and must be within range and LOS. In that case, the vehicle's position after it has finished its movement is where you would measure range and LOS to.

However, without that comma the rule is actually saying that the target has to have arrived from reserve within [the weapon's] range and LOS. Under that rule, it would seem that the vehicle's final position is indeed irrelevant. The interceptor weapon can be fired if the vehicle entered the battle within range and LOS.

So I'm going to have to go with Rift here. As it is written, the vehicle is a valid target if it arrived within range and los, not just if it finished its movement there. Whether that's what GW intended, or it's another bit of dodgy punctuation (like Rapid Fire weapons in a previous edition of this wonderfully written game, where a model couldn't shoot if the weapon intended to charge someone that turn...) ... well, that's anybody's guess.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/11/26 10:22:24


 
   
Made in za
Fresh-Faced New User





Well the best way not to sound rude, is by not being rude.

Im asking your opinion about a rule interpretation which can be read a different way from the way you are reading it, so get over yourself.

“…arrived from reserve within its range and line of sight.”

This sets the conditions for whether or not the intercept rule triggers at the end of the movement phase.




Maybe I should be the one asking you if your first language is English.




   
Made in au
[MOD]
Making Stuff






Under the couch

How about we dial the hostility back down to '0' in the interests of continuing useful discussion, folks...

 
   
Made in ie
Stern Iron Priest with Thrall Bodyguard





Ireland

I don't agree as my posts clearly show :p
If you are going for that line would it not be that any model arriving from reserves that crossed the line of sight and range can be fired at. In the flyby scenario the model has arrived from reserve within the range and LOS as the "arrived" is their movement not a point on the board.

I am looking at the whole of the rule and they seem to be playing fast and loose with where a comma needs to go. So this may be a case of GW's writing staff learning to spell from the Sun or the news of the world.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2012/11/26 10:58:57


It's not the size of the blade, it's how you use it.
2000+
1500+
2000+

For all YMDC arguements remember: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8vbd3E6tK2U

My blog: http://dublin-spot-check.blogspot.ie/ 
   
Made in au
[MOD]
Making Stuff






Under the couch

Under the example that he gave at the start, I would say that you can't shoot, as the flyer didn't arrive within range and LOS. It arrived from reserve and finished its movement within range and LOS, but that's not what the rule is asking for.


Having said that, I can also see an argument for allowing the shot on the basis that 'arriving from reserves' includes the unit's movement... although that would potentially mean that the interceptor could fire if at any point in the vehicle's movement it passed within range and LOS of the weapon.


 
   
Made in us
Irked Necron Immortal





Washington, USA

It sounds sort of like it requires the unit to arrive in range, except it becomes impossible to follow the normal rules for shooting.
You make the shot at the end of the movement phase. There is no game mechanic for going back in time to check if things were in range and LOS. You can certainly measure at the time the unit enters play, but what if you don't? There's no part of the rule telling you to measure early. Not to mention it can get rather cumbersome to do so against reserve heavy armies.
The wording of the rule is certainly awkward and certain meanings are unclear, but I would have to side with measuring from the final position. It is just more feasible from a gameplay mechanic viewpoint and more consistent with how GW has the rules set up.


 
   
Made in gb
Chalice-Wielding Sanguinary High Priest





Stevenage, UK

Fafnir made the point I was about to. If you have to wait until the end of the movement phase, you can't check whether a unitWAS in range in a different location when it arrived. Not to mention, if the unit uses movement as part of its arrival (anything that moved on rather than deep striking), how would you define when to measure? When the unit is fully on, likely interrupting its move? When the barest corner has hit the table, leaving you with a wobbly model situation every time?

If you try to play it as measured from arrival, you'll quickly find its impossible. Mentally adding that comma is the only way to make sense of the rule.

"Hard pressed on my right. My centre is yielding. Impossible to manoeuvre. Situation excellent. I am attacking." - General Ferdinand Foch  
   
Made in za
Fresh-Faced New User





Problem though, is you are changing the wording by adding a comma.

Also, as everything can be measured in 6th ed, I fail to see why measuring the point of arrival when the unit arrives would be a problem.
   
Made in us
[DCM]
Tilter at Windmills






Manchester, NH

The rule is specifically used and the shot taken "And the end of the Enemy movement phase...", so that is when you measure range and and determine LOS.

You do not retroactively go back in time and move the model back to where it first crossed the table edge. No shooting happens at a unit in a different place than where it currently is; that's contrary to the whole point of true LOS.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/11/26 12:29:41


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Made in za
Fresh-Faced New User





Well the way I see it is like this.

For this special rule (Interceptor)

When does it take effect? : At the end of your opponents movement phase.

What triggers it? : A unit in reserve arriving in range and line of sight of the weapon (has no reference to where the unit ends it move)

What is the effect? : The weapon can be fired at the target unit.

For me, arrived from reserve, means where the unit moved onto the table, that’s where it arrived, and then moved to its current location.

   
Made in ca
Grisly Ghost Ark Driver





One thing i'd like to point out in support of the 'Check at the final position of the arriving model' camp, is that it uses the past tense of 'arrived' to indicate what the model 'was' doing. Nothing in the way it's written requires you to check immediately upon the models' arrival on the board, you need only verify that the model has in fact 'arrived' from reserves that turn and that it is within the guns' LOS and range at the time you are making the shooting attack (ie: at the end of the enemies movement phase, after all movement has occured).

You don't really need the comma to parse the sentence that way, though i'd admit it'd probably make it clearer.
   
Made in us
Sergeant First Class





 Rift wrote:
Well the way I see it is like this.

For this special rule (Interceptor)

When does it take effect? : At the end of your opponents movement phase.

What triggers it? : A unit in reserve arriving in range and line of sight of the weapon (has no reference to where the unit ends it move)

What is the effect? : The weapon can be fired at the target unit.

For me, arrived from reserve, means where the unit moved onto the table, that’s where it arrived, and then moved to its current location.



Using the same logic:

A rhino full of Space Marines is in reserve, and comes in after a successful reserves roll. There is no terrain on the back table edge, so there is no place to block LOS to the Quad Gun. The rhino then completes it's move onto the board, stopping behind a large two story house that completely obscures it from being seen by the Quad Gun. Using the above logic, the Quad Gun could fire at the completely blocked rhino because it could be seen when it entered the board edge.

You sure you wanna go with that interpretation?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/11/26 14:13:11


 
   
Made in ca
Yellin' Yoof




Canada

We have a RAW that's dodgy about when 'within range and LOS' is checked, at any time or at the end of movement phase. Let's check what happens in each case.

Choice 1: Measuring 'at any time' fits the wording, can be complex for reserve heavy armys, but I also notice that it is a break up compared to how shooting works at any other time in the game. Except for Coteaz, that was a nice find but I still consider him an exception rather than a rule, he's unique.
Choice 2: Measuring at the end of the movement phase still feels natural in the sentence despite the missing comma, it also keep the shooting lnline with the norm of the game. (We move then fire in our regular turns, no shooting and running out of range, hm?) It also has the advantage of keeping things simpler if there's a lot of reserves.

RAW is dodgy, RAI is fair obvious, and the KISS rule leans me further towards choice 2. I will keep playing with a measurement at the end of the enemy movement phase. (And it seems most other people will too)

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/11/26 14:19:53


 
   
Made in au
[MOD]
Making Stuff






Under the couch

 Mannahnin wrote:
You do not retroactively go back in time and move the model back to where it first crossed the table edge. No shooting happens at a unit in a different place than where it currently is; that's contrary to the whole point of true LOS.

It's also not what I was saying.

In this edition of 'measure whatever you want, whenever you want, there is nothing stopping you from checking the range to the flyer as it moves onto the board.

Checking range and LOS at the end of the movement phase is probably what was intended... I will certainly agree that it's the simpler option. But as written, it's not what the rule says to do. What it's giving permission to do is shoot at a unit if it was in range and LOS at a specific point in its movement. Or possibly at any point in its movement. Or possibly at the end of its movement.

6th edition is great!

 
   
Made in gb
The Daemon Possessing Fulgrim's Body





Devon, UK



Automatically Appended Next Post:
culsandar wrote:
 Rift wrote:
Well the way I see it is like this.

For this special rule (Interceptor)

When does it take effect? : At the end of your opponents movement phase.

What triggers it? : A unit in reserve arriving in range and line of sight of the weapon (has no reference to where the unit ends it move)

What is the effect? : The weapon can be fired at the target unit.

For me, arrived from reserve, means where the unit moved onto the table, that’s where it arrived, and then moved to its current location.



Using the same logic:

A rhino full of Space Marines is in reserve, and comes in after a successful reserves roll. There is no terrain on the back table edge, so there is no place to block LOS to the Quad Gun. The rhino then completes it's move onto the board, stopping behind a large two story house that completely obscures it from being seen by the Quad Gun. Using the above logic, the Quad Gun could fire at the completely blocked rhino because it could be seen when it entered the board edge.

You sure you wanna go with that interpretation?


You can turn that on its head too. I move my flier on from the rear table edge out of range, burn my jets the full move and end up in your face with all guns blazing. As I entered from reserve out of range there isn't a thing you can do but watch as I blow your quad gun off the board.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2012/11/27 02:15:02


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Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Did it arrive from reserve this round? Yes.
Is it in range and LOS of the Quad gun at the end of Movement? Yes.

Then it can be shot.
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut





This is a "He saw the boy with the binoculars." The english language is not a precise one, that's why legalese is always so damned complicated.


At the end of the enemy Movement phase, a weapon with the Interceptor special rule can be fired at any one unit that has arrived from reserve within its range and line of sight.


In any case, the movement onto the board is part of the unit "arriving from reserve." All under page 124 in the rulebook.

I would also note that you don't arrive from reserve then take a movement, the rules are very clear from that. You arrive from reserve by moving onto the table (as a semi-normal movement with a few extra rules).


When Reserves arrive, the player picks any one of the units arriving and deploys it, moving it onto the table as described below. Then he picks another unit and deploys it, and so on until all arriving units are on the table. The player can rhen proceed to move his other units as normal.

   
Made in us
[DCM]
Tilter at Windmills






Manchester, NH

Given that the rule very clearly states when the rule is used (at the end of the movement phase), I think we’d need some clear and explicit statement to reasonably conclude that the shot should be resolved at some other time, or the model retroactively moved back to where it was earlier in the phase.

If it were shot down at the table edge, you’d have to resolve Crash & Burn back there, and deploy any surviving passengers back there, etc. And where exactly would we position it? Partially straddling the table edge; maybe with the nose just peeking over? How much of the nose? Or maybe at the point where the vehicle’s completely on the table? But then it’s already entered the table, no? Not entering the table. And it’s the vehicle’s whole length closer to my opponent for checking range.

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Made in us
Maddening Mutant Boss of Chaos





Pennsylvania


At the end of the enemy Movement phase, a weapon with the Interceptor special rule can be fired at any one unit that has arrived from reserve within its range and line of sight.


This rule clearly defines when the rule is applied. The statement "At the end of the enemy Movement phase" is a prepositional phrase. A sentence containing a prepositional phrase can be rewritten like so without changing the context:

"A weapon with the Interceptor special rule can be fired at any one unit that has arrived from reserve within its range and line of sight at the end of the enemy Movement phase."

This prepositional phrase functions as an adverb and will answer questions such as How? When? or Where? In this case the noun is the "rule" and the bold phrase answers the question "When can a weapon with the Interceptor special rule be fired? At the end of the Movement phase.

There is no need to debate if any is reading English properly, it is just a simple grammatical issue. It has been written clearly by Games Workshop, you just have to remember your grammer lessons to understand it clearly.

Renegade Guardsmen 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut





 Rift wrote:
Problem though, is you are changing the wording by adding a comma.


RAI is not RAW. It is impossible to play 40k without some level of inferance on the rules.

Unnessesarily extravegant word of the week award goes to jcress410 for this:

jcress wrote:Seem super off topic to complain about epistemology on a thread about tactics.
 
   
Made in au
[MOD]
Making Stuff






Under the couch

 Mannahnin wrote:
Given that the rule very clearly states when the rule is used (at the end of the movement phase), I think we’d need some clear and explicit statement to reasonably conclude that the shot should be resolved at some other time, or the model retroactively moved back to where it was earlier in the phase.

That's the thing, though... The rule isn't asking you to move the vehicle back, or resolve the shot at some time other than the end of the movement phase.


If a rule says 'After dinner, you can have a sherry if you enter the lounge through the rear door' then, so long as you enter the lounge through the rear door you can have a sherry after dinner.

Similarly, if a rule says that at the end of the movement phase you can shoot at a vehicle that entered the battle within range and LOS of your weapon, then so long as the vehicle entered the battle within range and LOS of your weapon you can take a shot at it at the end of the movement phase.


On consideration, I have reversed my opinion on range and LOS no longer mattering at that point, though. The requirement for the vehicle to have arrived within range and LOS is simply the trigger for taking the shot. You would still need range and LOS at the time of taking the shot in order to actually hit it, since the rule doesn't say otherwise. So the vehicle needs to arrive within range and LOS in order for interceptor to work... and then you take a shot as per the normal shooting process.


I am leaning further towards the idea that the issue here is just a missing comma, though.

 
   
 
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