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I was wondering, how competitive CSM codex is without
1. Allies
2. Helldrakes (new toys in everyones list)

Is chaos codex confined within these two constituents?

Chaos Codex is competative for sure.
As like most codex's theres only 1 or 2 builds to fit the current meta.
Most are filling their gaps with Allies so why should chaos be any different.

Chaos Ally with some of the most powerful armies currently such as:

Necrons
IG
Daemons

Chaos can be the back bone of very strong lists.

If you don't run Helldrakes then you can run 15 Nurgle Spawn which is pretty nasty. In general the Chaos codex is pretty solid, it has multiple competitive options across all the different FOC slots and solid scoring units, which are the signs of a good codex. The only weak link is probably Elites, but only because most of the time if you take Cult Marines you will be taking them as Troops.

I STILL think it's too early to fully evaluate the competitiveness of the codex. Right now people have found a few units that really rock for their points and are spamming them. This leads to their being two or three internet builds that will generally do very well. However, over the coming months and most likely years people will continue branching out from Plague Marines and Helldrakes to find different synergies within our shiny new dex.

I will say that it is a very balanced, varied, and flavorful codex. It has some incredible potential. The only real sticking points I hear from a lot of people is the Chaos Boons table and the Champions of Chaos special rule. Random chance to spawnify a pricey HQ and the inability to hide from challenges forces you to play a different game, and the majority of folks (myself included) are still adjusting to the style of play it requires.

I think the outlook is very positive, and with work, C:CSM has all the tools needed to compete with the likes of Necrons, GK, and IG.

Noise Marines are great for their points. Plague marines are great for their points. Bikers are great for their points.

Pretty much everything else in the codex is mediocre or worse. Meaning you aren't getting a discount for it, not that it can't be competent at something.

Add to that you have very limited array of vehicles compared to loyalists, and no daemonic support outside of allies.

Only one very bad assault transport. Its capacity is too small for terminators + lord. Considering that a lot of your units are assault focused, with no reliable delivery options, well consider a big chunk of the codex useless.

The new walkers aren't bad, but aren't much different than the old walkers. A forgefiend is not much better than a rifleman dread and the mauler field is just a retooled version of the 5th edition defiler with all its guns traded in for close combat weapons. Nothing really new there.

The dragon is okay. Nothing special. Its damage output is limited for its point cost even though it does have above average survivability. It is still very expensive for what you can expect from it. Really only worth taking with the flamer against MEQ opponents. Outside of that build and opponent it will probably struggle to do enough damage to matter.

Still too early to tell but from experience:
It is solid.
For the most part, the points are right, aside from some standout cheap ones and some standout expensive ones. A crap ton of troops choices (literally hundreds if you count them with different options) make this codex special.

I would agree that it is probably still too early to make a definitive declaration, but from I've seen locally so far, I would place it mid to low level. The codex definitely has some bright spots, but many (myself included) long time players are having a bit of an issue making lists from it. You definitely have to work a little harder because this codex has a lot of units that are only very slightly different from one another with very few (if any) obvious "must have" selections. One big issue is that something like two thirds of the entries are taken up by HQ and Elites choices with not much variation anywhere else. From what I've seen, most of your HQ selections will have a big effect on what you take for the rest of your list and what your army looks like, but will have less of an effect "in-game". Meaning a lot of times you're buying HQ slots just for the ability to unlock or buy something somewhere else in your list. There are a lot of little "if x then y" type of rules here.

The other thing I've noticed is that this does not feel like a codex that was written specifically for 6th edition. The Necron Codex for example, was clearly written with the new rules in mind and takes advantage of them quite well. The Chaos 'dex however, often appears to get penalized by the new rules (Champions of Chaos probably being the prime example). Over-all I think this codex has a lot of potential, but is probably going to take a while to really show it off. Especially if you're not a top tier player. Right now all you have to do to see this is look up battle reports. In all of the games I've seen, and all of the reports I've read since the codex came out, I've seen Chaos win twice. Both times it was against very poorly designed Tau lists and both times they barely pulled it off. So like I said, right now I would place them solidly mid to low level but that could change once someone really figures this codex out.

I would say that CSM without drakes and allies are mid tier. But if you are just trying to run your 4-5th list with the new codex then you are going to end up with a very subpar list.
Chaos use to ignore the FA section, now even without the drakes, FA is probably the best section. You dont need drakes but you will need bikes, or spawn.

I think an all CSM troop build has potential. Massed Meq bodies has appeal to me. I dont know if it will work, but I think it has potential. I am painting up more regular CSM and trying them out.

I would say that CSM without drakes and allies are mid tier. But if you are just trying to run your 4-5th list with the new codex then you are going to end up with a very subpar list.

Exactly what I'm finding as well. It's just a very odd codex. I don't recall ever having seen that before with any other codexes (going all the way back to 2nd ed). I'm wondering if this is going to be the new model going forward. Many slightly nuanced choices that are only ever so slightly different on paper but perform very differently on the table.

Tycho wrote:

I would say that CSM without drakes and allies are mid tier. But if you are just trying to run your 4-5th list with the new codex then you are going to end up with a very subpar list.

Exactly what I'm finding as well. It's just a very odd codex. I don't recall ever having seen that before with any other codexes (going all the way back to 2nd ed). I'm wondering if this is going to be the new model going forward. Many slightly nuanced choices that are only ever so slightly different on paper but perform very differently on the table.

Its Kelly
the DE dex changed very little about warriors, wyches, ravagers, archons and so on. But the way the codex played completely changed.

Its Kelly
the DE dex changed very little about warriors, wyches, ravagers, archons and so on. But the way the codex played completely changed.

Good point. I hadn't thought of that. It's very telling IMO that both the DE and the Chaos dex were written by Kelly at a time when the 6thed rules were either completely known to the design team or were, at the very least, well fleshed out and yet neither codex really takes 6th Ed into account very well.

Not sure where that's coming from? Is the fact that the codex is full of nuanced choices a bad thing now?

Chaos does pretty well in 6th, but does not have the codex creep power bump that people expected. Not sure why that's a flaw though, aside from the Helldrake, which is a bit OP, and the Warp Talons and Mutilators, which are overcosted, every one choice is valid. It's what a codex should be.

DE seems similar.

Not sure where that's coming from? Is the fact that the codex is full of nuanced choices a bad thing now?

Chaos does pretty well in 6th, but does not have the codex creep power bump that people expected. Not sure why that's a flaw though, aside from the Helldrake, which is a bit OP, and the Warp Talons and Mutilators, which are overcosted, every one choice is valid. It's what a codex should be.

DE seems similar.

I think the nuance is actually a good thing. I was just mentioning it because I think it's worth bringing up. It does make list building a little more challenging and I think it will keep the Codex from really showing its true potential for a little longer than usual. I didn't mean to imply I thought the nuance was bad though. Just different.

So far though, Chaos does NOT do well in 6th. Again, go look at the battle rep section. Chaos has been getting pounded since the codex came out (again though, this could very well be because of the fact that the codex is so "nuanced"). They even lost their debut in WD. lol My other main army is Dark Eldar and while they have not been nerfed quite as much as some would have you believe, 6th has definitely hit them hard in spots. Neither the Chaos codex nor the DE codex really seem to use the 6th ed rules very well. Chaos is actually actively penalized by them in some spots.

DrDuckman wrote:
Not sure where that's coming from? Is the fact that the codex is full of nuanced choices a bad thing now?

Chaos does pretty well in 6th, but does not have the codex creep power bump that people expected. Not sure why that's a flaw though, aside from the Helldrake, which is a bit OP, and the Warp Talons and Mutilators, which are overcosted, every one choice is valid. It's what a codex should be.

DE seems similar.

The hellturkey isnt overpowered, it is really well costed and thought out although it does kind of fail with the daemonrules forced on it.
Warptalons arent really overcosted, they just fill a void no one ever thought you needed to be filled.
Raptors are overcosted, especilly compared to bikes. Fear is just o so wonderful
Zerkers are overcosted without the 2 attacks base.
Tsons are overcosted.
Forgefiends are overcosted
Terminators are overcosted.
Possessed are terribly overcosted.
Cultists are overcosted.
Mutilators are epic fail.

On the other hand, bikes and spawn are undercosted. Sorcerers are very powerful. Plaguemarines are probably a point too cheap. Havocs are probably too cheap.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Tycho wrote:

Not sure where that's coming from? Is the fact that the codex is full of nuanced choices a bad thing now?
DE seems similar.

I think the nuance is actually a good thing. I was just mentioning it because I think it's worth bringing up. It does make list building a little more challenging and I think it will keep the Codex from really showing its true potential for a little longer than usual. I didn't mean to imply I thought the nuance was bad though. Just different.

So far though, Chaos does NOT do well in 6th. They even lost their debut in WD. lol My other main army is Dark Eldar and while they have not been nerfed quite as much as some would have you believe, 6th has definitely hit them hard in spots. Neither the Chaos codex nor the DE codex really seem to use the 6th ed rules very well. Chaos is actually actively penalized by them in some spots.

yeah, I am very sad that both of my armies are now Kellyed. Brand new books and already relying on a few broken choices to be nuanced. Venoms are too good, Chaos bikes are too good, just like Grey hunters are too good.

I was actually looking into running three mutilators with mark of nurgle as my elite slots. Compared to a lone wolf with similar geat it is pretty powerful. Also cant be ignored when it deep strikes in as it can take on most MSU units and vehicles quite easily.

Cultists are overcosted.

Finally someone else noticed this. Cultist are pretty much terrible at shooting, melee and holding objectives and compared to IG guardsmen they are total joke unit. Making them zombies helps but then your paying for Typhus and should build you list around him.

I was wondering, how competitive CSM codex is without
1. Allies
2. Helldrakes (new toys in everyones list)

Is chaos codex confined within these two constituents?

It can work on it's own, without Helldrakes. However, both allies and Helldrakes are nice to have.

HQ- There are some monsters here. The Nurgle bike lord with a claw and fist comes to mind. Lv3 Sorcerers for 110 points....

Elites-relatively weak. Cult Troops should only ever be taken as troops (even then, I don't love them). The rest is meh

Troops-the make or break slot is fine. The key here is to not fall into noob traps (bloating units). Base cultists. Base CSM or MoK with Icon (no specials).

Heavy Support- Autocannon Havoks, Nurgle Oblits...nuff said

Fast Attack- Spawn are absolutely amazing. Helldrakes are good too.

The issues I see people having are:

1. Noob traps

Noobs overpay for bad things. Like marks, icons, close combat weapons and then expect these units to be godly. They aren't. Chaos Space Marines are more akin to Necron Troops. They take objectives and mop up after the heavy stuff does its work. Stock CSM and Cultists are very good if you know what to expect from them.

2. Themed armies

Don't play a theme and expect to be optimized. The Cult troops are overpriced. Get over it and move on.

I'm starting to feel like its going to be very rare when you see lists at the top tables of big events without allies.

The cult troops are sometimes good at things but tend not to do anything particularly better or more efficiently than what you come to expect from fifth or sixth edition.
The csm squad can be built for a lot of jobs but generally the cute plans for them seem a bit weird or hard to pull off without some ugly work. The standard build is solid cheap bolters and a pretty standard pricetag for two special weapons but rhinos make things complicated. Sorta suffers from sisters of battle syndrome where you don't have much choice but to have a lot of expensive liabilities if you want effective troops at all. Cultists are weird and confusing to me so I'm not the person to ask but guardsmen might be a better idea and who wouldn't want some vendettas to hang out with your drakes and sea of variously named autocannons.

I don't know much about obliterators this season. They seem better with infiltrate or outflank. 3 guns a turn (with added inconsistency) had better be doing an awful lot of work at 210 points. I'm not even sure nurgle mark makes them all that much better unless you're dealing with an awful lot of eldrich lances or they're forward enough to be catching bolter fire.

It's a decent codex. I like it a lot. Doesn't really turn anything upside down though. Except all the ap3 templates. I guess they're trying to help us remember it isn't quite a whole new mech forsaken world out there.

In the most recent GT UK quailfers Chaos marines using the new dex came third out of 55 players, so its not a bad dex at all, but yes agreed it is still too early to tell as I am not sure what he was using going just by the position its hard to tell if he was using units that are new and other players do not know how to counter yet etc.

Thanks for constructive discussion. I hopped in 6ed with chaos codex, so I'm still grasping concept of allies.

I have decent amount of C:CSM models and I'm reluctant to idea of buying new expensive models that most of other chaos players will also have on the table each game and leaving bunch of other chaos stuff to rot on shelf is even more displeasing idea.. However, I have hope that so called internal balance of chaos codex will make "ok" units perform great in certain lists.

One last thought. I don't think this codex should get all the praises it gets. It has a lot of issues, who would be either easy to solve or simply to avoid (LC on chosen, 1k sons etc.) which speaks to me about a negligent editor or just a simple sales policy (buy new toys, leave old ones behind). But this might be an excursus to GW policy and company issues.

Obliterators seem a bit overpriced now with predators and havocs getting cheaper.

Kevlar wrote:
Obliterators seem a bit overpriced now with predators and havocs getting cheaper.

Obliterators are still very versatile (even more with assault cannons) and hard to kill instantly with MoN. I will still run a squad of 3 together with 2 units of Havocs with autocannons.

I think you have to understand your army to make it work well. There's such a huge number of different options, but if you choose units that work well together and help each other (avoiding the 's' word!) you should have a good army. It probably won't be on par with Necrons for instance, though so much of it will always come down to player competency.

I don't follow tournaments so I don't know how to compare this Codex with other ones from that perspective. But I do think the new Codex is fairly competitive for a number of reasons:

- units like bikers / spawn / heldrakes / terminators are pretty good without being OP
- CSMs are relatively cheap and versatile, they can be used in a lot of ways
- the non-named HQs are pretty powerful for the points
- the elite choices (thinking mostly about noise marines here) are pretty tough and can create a lot of situations that are hard for opponents to deal with
- there is a lot of variety in the lists I see, much more than in the previous edition

The thing I enjoy most is the strategy with this Codex, the fact you can really think through how to use your army before a game and make some decisions about how to attack without necessarily knowing the opponent. My army, which is mostly bikers and noise marines, overperforms a little bit because it creates situations where people don't really know exactly what to expect or how to deal with it. Like, I know I am never going to field a death star, but I know I have the options to make things hard on players who want to engage head on and throw off their plans for how to beat me.

The synergies between units are just more subtle than I have seen in other Codexes, and a successful army doesn't need to rely on things like combat tactics to win. I don't know my record, but I am definitely winning more games than I lose under the 6th edition without having to rely on lists that are all over the Internet.

In fact, the CSM codex holds some effective units, like Lord, CSM, Bikes, Spawn, and Havocs. Helldrakes fill some tactical holes and a winged DP can be a monster in cc when tooled up correctly. Obliterators being one of my favorite units in the game are very versatile and with MoN hard to kill instantly.
I think there are very competitive CSM armies out there.

 Nakor The BlueRider wrote:

Cultists are overcosted.

Finally someone else noticed this. Cultist are pretty much terrible at shooting, melee and holding objectives and compared to IG guardsmen they are total joke unit. Making them zombies helps but then your paying for Typhus and should build you list around him.

yeah, I saw noticed that right out of the box(i mailed ordered my codex) and have been disappointed ever since. I cant see why anyone would be taking autoguns when they cost more than IG for substantionally less. I am allying in IG for the my troopy blobs.

yeah, I saw noticed that right out of the box(i mailed ordered my codex) and have been disappointed ever since. I cant see why anyone would be taking autoguns when they cost more than IG for substantionally less. I am allying in IG for the my troopy blobs.

Overcosted? 30 Cultists comes in at 130 points. 30 Guardsmen is 150, plus a PCS. 30 Ork Boyz is 180.

Are the Guardsmen and Boyz better? Sure. Are there reasons to keep the Cultists? Sure.

Cultists are great because unlike allied Boyz or Guard, you can attach characters and buff them with psychic powers. How good are Cultists once they are invisibile, or buffed with FNP?

Also, CSM players may want to ally with Daemons or Crons instead. Cultists allow CSM to fill the field with cheap bodies of their own.

All in all, I'd agree that Guard blobs or Ork blobs are better IF you have the space to ally them in.

 JGrand wrote:

yeah, I saw noticed that right out of the box(i mailed ordered my codex) and have been disappointed ever since. I cant see why anyone would be taking autoguns when they cost more than IG for substantionally less. I am allying in IG for the my troopy blobs.

Overcosted? 30 Cultists comes in at 130 points. 30 Guardsmen is 150, plus a PCS. 30 Ork Boyz is 180.
Cultists are great because unlike allied Boyz or Guard, you can attach characters and buff them with psychic powers. How good are Cultists once they are invisibile, or buffed with FNP?

with pistol and CCW they are ok, but with rifles....
with autoguns:
30 cultists are 160 points
30 guardsmen are 150 points, come with 2 additional sergeants, better armor, grenades, weapon options and orders.
30 shoota boys are 180 points
30 guardsmen AND a 5 man PCS is 180 points.

Also, CSM players may want to ally with Daemons or Crons instead. Cultists allow CSM to fill the field with cheap bodies of their own.

I would say probably not. No. Chaos this edition is a funny thing. There are a lot of entries that look cheap on the surface, but once you're done tooling them up to be useful they end up being somewhat expensive (and often only borderline worth it). To pay the "allies tax" on top of that seems like it's going to be more of a hinderance than anything else. The one exception I could see would be allying stoopid cheap guard troops just so that you can spam Vendettas. But at that point you're probably better off using Guard as your main army and using Chaos as the allies.

C: CSM has a lot of things going for it. They have access to lots of good, anti-vehicle options due to the ability to spam various types of auto-cannons.

They have great objective holding potential, which is very important in 6th. Zombies are great for this, plague marines are great for this, even 1k sons are great for this. 3+ and 4++ with fearless is a tough unit to push off of something.

In a game that will always have more MEQ armies than anything else, they have access to lots of efficient anti-MEQ options.

Sure, you want to be avoiding assault with most of your units, but at the same time you have access to some great CC units that can protect you.