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So it's been a few months now with the new codex out, unfortunately I've only managed to play a few games with it so far, but I was just wondering what the opinion was on the new book: Better, Worse or roughly the same?

I've noticed the drop in leadership across the board and that's come up a few times already, tried the Heldrake but wasn't that impressed, Vendetta gunships have it trumped every time.
Some nice extra options in there too though, I like some of the artifacts and the champions of chaos table is quite fun, especially when I got re-roll armour saves on my terminator lord!

So what do you other Chaos players think, was it worth the wait?

It's a good balanced book. There is no stupid nonsense, probably because matt ward didn't write it.

Spawn got useful, demon princes aren't the HQ of choice, now nearly every HQ is equal, more fluff, more fun, more chaos.

I'm sad I have 3 models with demon weapons for normal lords that I really need to retro-fit, since you can't take demon weapons normally, only the two artifacts, but overall I'm happy with the book.

Over all I'm pleased how well balanced the book is internally, there are still a few ''dafuq does that make sense?'' bits in there but over all they aren't too damaging. The things that get me knotted up in confusion are the DP, Chosen and Warp Talons and finally the major lack of any army unique vehicles with an armour value above 12...


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In other words wheres my chaos answer to a LR Crusader?

It's better than the last book and there's some cool stuff in it.

However...

Fundamentally, it's still a 4th edition book with a few 6th ed USR's slapped in. It feels like a WD update more than anything. Most of the issues people had with the previous book are still there (Tsons still grossly overcosted, odd dissonance with grunts having more gifts/benefits from their gods than Terminators/Lords, etc), vehicles are costed and function largely as they did in previous editions without taking into context 6th ed vehicle fragility, and much of the CC units not really taking into account the new nature of 6th edition CC mechanics, on top of a lot of changes being done just for the sake of change itself (e.g. Berzerkers losing 1A but gaining Counterattack+Rage).

Really, it's better than the last book by a lot, but unfortunately that's not saying much. The Necron book is a year old and much better adapted to the 6th edition rules and so many of the issues that plagued the previous book remain.

TL;DR Better, but basically still a 4th edition book with a couple 6E things stuck on.

I think what Vaktathi is saying is that this codex is clearly still a mid tier codex... which is a shame for being the first real 6th edition codex (when compared to 5th ed Necrons)

Vaktathi hit the nail on the head. It is a mid tier codex but really feels like the 4th ed codex still.

I agree with the folks above me. Different but the same. It is still mid to low level depending on who's using it and what they're taking. It didn't address any of the outstanding issues Chaos has had for several editions, it made the army top heavy (two thirds of the entries taken up by HQ and Elites) and it has some things that seem to penalize you for no real reason (like Champions of Chaos). On the other hand, it didn't really make the army worse either. So, it's really a "we broke even but it could have been so much better" kind of thing for me.

It's..mid tier

That's all one really can say, there's nothing that makes it standout at all.

I have noticed a few things I have issue with in this codex I have to admit, like the fact that Berzerkers now just seem to be inferior versions of Blood Angels Death Company. Also it seems a lot was copy pasted from the last book with a few extra vehicles thrown on.

It's also possible I'm not as impressed so far because all of my games have been against Necrons or Grey Knights and the wealth of insane rules kicking around in those books tends to be slightly detrimental against a fairly balanced book like this one (Mindshackle Scarabs when I have to accept challenges! Yay! Whats that your 100 point grey knight guy kills Abaddon instantly if you pass a to hit roll when he dies! Woohoo!...)

Enough complaining though, I'm glad to see a shift away from blanket leadership 10 and fearless and a dramatic cut in the ridiculous options that we have had from other recent codex offerings. I only hope it's maintained in future Codexes and a we don't end up at the bottom of the pile when older armies get updated.

That's the big fear, is that this book ends up much like the previous CSM book where they tried something for basically a couple releases and then abandoned it and codex bloat exploded thereafter, leaving the CSM book in an awkward, watered down state.

Unfortunately with DA's being the next book and Ward writing them, it's highly likely they'll be the new FOTM and CSM's will once again be in the position they were most of 5th.

I only hope it's maintained in future Codexes and a we don't end up at the bottom of the pile when older armies get updated.

The problem is, we're so close to the bottom already that I am having trouble envisioning a future wherein we don't get pushed further down the ladder. I'm pretty much 100 percent in agreement with Vaktathi on this one.

I really wanted to love it, I really did, but they suffer from a severe lack of mobility.

Footslogging or riding on a tracked barrel of explosives just can't compete with drop pod armies and deep striking or flying land raiders.

There are a few flanking options, but they're very wonky at best. I'm also not dropping $200+ on some fugly one-trick dragon ponies.

Basically my 4000 points of CSM just got relegated to "Allies Duty" for my Guard. I do love the models, and Chaosifying gak is just awesome, they're more my "relaxation time" painting army. A shame really, maybe another 3-4 years and we'll get something competetive.

I gotta say, I love the book, and I am shocked at the reception it has gotten. If anything, it makes me feel sad about the 40k gaming culture.

Almost all of the negative comments about it are power level related. Seriously? Is the criteria about whether the codex is good or not is how powerful it is? If anything, having a few obvious undercosted choices that overshadow the rest of the codex is the sign of a BAD codex, not a good one.

Fact is, the new codex does what a codex SHOULD do, it presents a LOT of options that are all viable and play quite different. I've run shooty armies, melee armies, and speed demon army with great success. They feel completely different. Something that was not really possible in the last codex. And at no point did I feel disadvantaged, unless I run into a Necron Flyer Spam. Most importantly, chaos now FEELs like more than spikey space marines, what with their focus on low armor vehicles with invunrable saves and weird mechanics, as well as the themed Lord cult armies.

As for the complaint about mobility, what? The Fast Attack sections are the best part of the book. Have you tried a Nurgle lord with T6 biker bodyguard? Or a Juggernaught Khorne lord with the Axe of Blinding Fury and 5 chaos Spawn?

The one thing I do agree is, I do kinda wish we have more land raiders. The one we get is kinda meh.

Almost all of the negative comments about it are power level related. Seriously? Is the criteria about whether the codex is good or not is how powerful it is? If anything, having a few obvious undercosted choices that overshadow the rest of the codex is the sign of a BAD codex, not a good one.

Honestly, I think the biggest issue is not that the power level stayed the same (or went down), it's that this book could have been so much more. Instead it feels like they just half assed so much of it. There are one or two under-costed units. There are MANY over-costed units. The Warpsmith and Dark Apostle should both have been cheaper Elites choices (don't even get me started on the fact that the rules for the DA don't even come close to matching the DAs we've seen in the fluff so far), and we got a few units (like Warp Talons) that seem to be in direct conflict with how this edition is intended to be played. Not to mention the fact that a lot of us expected the first true 6th edition book to actually be a 6th ed book. Instead what we got is a book that would have fit very easily into 4th ed. The few spots where the new codex does "synergize" with the new rules, it actively penalizes its own army. Not so great.

Like I said, personally, I didn't want or expect a huge power bump or anything, and this codex isn't terrible. It's just not quite what a lot of us feel it could so easily have been. Vaktathi has mentioned before that this codex feels like it could easily have just been a White Dwarf update and I agree with him. It just doesn't feel like a complete or well rounded effort.

As for the complaint about mobility, what? The Fast Attack sections are the best part of the book. Have you tried a Nurgle lord with T6 biker bodyguard? Or a Juggernaught Khorne lord with the Axe of Blinding Fury and 5 chaos Spawn?

On this you and I agree. I think this is the one area where this codex is *somewhat* successful. Many are bemoaning the fact that we do not have many options in terms of assault vehicles. On one hand that's a legitimate complaint, and on the other hand, it's not. I think in an effort to try and keep players from running chaos like "spikey loyalists" Kelly gave us a lot of new options that are maybe either not obvious enough, or simply require a different way of thinking. The book DOES have many solutions for different strategies. You just have to look a little harder sometimes. Your quote is a perfect example of this. I think that's where the "nuance" some of us mention comes into play. The solutions to some of our problems are there, but they are in places that long-time Chaos players (I've run them since 2nd ed) are not use to looking. This is good IMO and it's the one thing that kept me from shelving the army for this edition. It's a little like the puzzle box in Hellraiser. A sometimes difficult problem, to solve, but once you do, look out. lol

To start with, I have read quickly through the codex, although I have not played either with or against it (yet).
My initial impression is that it is a well made book (craft wise) and it has overall great fluff and beautiful illustration.
The rules are overall interesting and seem entertaining to play with, but I can understand your worries about it becoming outdated very quickly with the arrival of newer and (hopefully not) more powerful codices.
I really hope that GW can do what they did with WHFB and restrain themselves from escalating the power level of the newer codices at a faster and faster rate, completely invalidating the older codices in even somewhat competitive environments. If they manage to to that, this should be able to be a pretty solid and long lasting book, but if they don't this could end up going the way of the 4th edition book, with people outright leaving to play other armies instead, with Forge World trying to salvage the army through alternative army lists.

I think it's a pretty nice codex. It's not horrendously powerful, but it's not incredibly weak either. Personally, I think the new units are a lot of fun and have made at least seven different lists just for the different things I want to try out and play with. There are some things that I wish were changed, like the Warp Talons, but for the most part I'm happy with what there is. And I wish the other four Legions got some better representation. It'd be a lot of fun if there were special characters for all nine Legions, each with their own special rule (Iron Warriors: All daemonengines can be taken as elites, Alpha Legion: All Chosen get Infiltrate, etc)
I'm not complaining though, because it is pretty open for making a fun and fluffy list and still have a successful army. If I could throw away a few hundred bucks, I'd love to get all those new awesome looking models, too.

DrDuckman wrote:
I gotta say, I love the book, and I am shocked at the reception it has gotten. If anything, it makes me feel sad about the 40k gaming culture.

Almost all of the negative comments about it are power level related. Seriously? Is the criteria about whether the codex is good or not is how powerful it is? If anything, having a few obvious undercosted choices that overshadow the rest of the codex is the sign of a BAD codex, not a good one.

Fact is, the new codex does what a codex SHOULD do, it presents a LOT of options that are all viable and play quite different. I've run shooty armies, melee armies, and speed demon army with great success. They feel completely different. Something that was not really possible in the last codex. And at no point did I feel disadvantaged, unless I run into a Necron Flyer Spam. Most importantly, chaos now FEELs like more than spikey space marines, what with their focus on low armor vehicles with invunrable saves and weird mechanics, as well as the themed Lord cult armies.

As for the complaint about mobility, what? The Fast Attack sections are the best part of the book. Have you tried a Nurgle lord with T6 biker bodyguard? Or a Juggernaught Khorne lord with the Axe of Blinding Fury and 5 chaos Spawn?

The one thing I do agree is, I do kinda wish we have more land raiders. The one we get is kinda meh.

I don't think you're quite getting the complaints. It's not about raw power. In many ways this book just is not a 6th edition army. One need only look at the Necron book to see an army much better built to take advantage of the 6th edition ruleset. Largely, it's a 4th edition book with some 6E USR's tacked on (in many instances apparently just for their own sake such as on Berzerkers), some Warlord abilities and a Flyer.

On top of that many of the thematic, fluff, and balance issues of previous codex remain, and some got *worse*, and a lot of nonsensical design decisions were made. Why don't Plague Lords or Plague Terminators have access to poisoned weapons or blight grenades or FNP? Where are the sonic weapon options for Terminators, Dreads and Predators, etc? Why on earth are Thousand Sons still absurdly expensive? Why did Defilers and Land Raiders, already bemoaned for not being particularly great choices, go *up* in cost? (especially the Defiler by almost 50pts). Why did Oblits need to go from Fearless Ld9 to non-fearless Ld8 (i.e. what Imperial Guard squads usually test on)?

With regards to mobility, yes the FA portion is very good now, but largely just through cost cutting, compared to other marine books, there's still a relative dearth of mobility, transport, and deployment options, making CSM's a relatively one-dimension attack army, especially with the loss of Deep Strike beacons on Icons.

There's so much they could have done with this book and just did not live up to what many were hoping after seeing so much new stuff invented just to justify the continued existence of individual chapter books for stuff like Blood Angels or the near total re-invention of Grey Knights. These are the forces of Chaos, unbound by Imperial dogma and even time iteself, the 9 Traitor Legions and the various renegades since then. Yet compared to the basic Space Marine book it has fewer units, fewer SC's, fewer deployment options, fewer transports, etc. not including the various sub-chapters that get their own book despite being more similar to each other than any Chaos Legion is.

And yes, there are fears with power level because the last book got left in the dust rather quickly and like it or not nobody likes playing a game where they feel at a disadvantage next to their opponent, and this book has much the same feel as the last in that regard.


TL;DR, it's not just about power level, it's that this book left many of the previous books issues unresolved and feels more like a quick and lazy White Dwarf update for a 4th edition army than an actual purpose built 6th edition book building on the design philosophy of the last few years, with so much potential gone unfulfilled.

Dont see why being mid-tier is a BAD thing, the problem with the toptiers is they seem to get to the point of identicle lists and rock-paper-scissors etc. Personally more of the future codex releases should be like this.

Shame about the lack of generic daemonweapons here, they were rather a fun bit off fluff meets gameplay, and as has been said it could really have done with some more legion specific rules and whatnot. over all though its pretty good.

On a side not, how do the chaos specific sorcerer powers fare on table?

For the most part I'm happy with it. Though to be honest I was never a heavy CSM player before. Played 2 games with them about a week ago. First a team game, me and a daemon army versus a DA and salamanders army. We won. Then played just my CSM against the DA and won again. No game was a complete shutout for either side. Just had all my units do what they were supposed to do.
2 things that I do wish they would have done different are allowing unaligned DP and having generic daemon weapon as an option. Just a more powerful power weapon with the potential badness of rolling a 1.

Vaktathi, how do you know what a 6th edition army is when the ruleset has been out for less than a year, has only one codex release, and the Chaos codex has been out for only a month? It's extremely early to say anything about power level in regards to both 6th edition and the Chaos codex.

My gripes with it are purely visual. I absolutely despise the Helbrute design.

 AresX8 wrote:
Vaktathi, how do you know what a 6th edition army is when the ruleset has been out for less than a year, has only one codex release, and the Chaos codex has been out for only a month? It's extremely early to say anything about power level in regards to both 6th edition and the Chaos codex.

Because the Necrons and GK easily feel far better in the 6th edition army mindset, since according to them they were built for 6th, and it shows. They are far better able to take advantage of 6th edition rules, Necrons especially make far more sense in 6th than 5th when it comes to rules.

For the most part, I fully agree with Vaktathi, it feels more like a White Dwarf Update than anything else.

My only issue with the Codex is that they had a great opportunity to give Chaos a unique unit in either the Mutilators or Warp Talons and spit the bit on both.

The Warp Talon models are really cool looking, but I can't see myself EVER fielding them. Their special ability would be great if Chaos had beacons in Icons or if they had an ability similar to Descent of Angels, but they don't, have no shooting, and are a poor unit choice.

 kcwm wrote:
My only issue with the Codex is that they had a great opportunity to give Chaos a unique unit in either the Mutilators or Warp Talons and spit the bit on both.

The Warp Talon models are really cool looking, but I can't see myself EVER fielding them. Their special ability would be great if Chaos had beacons in Icons or if they had an ability similar to Descent of Angels, but they don't, have no shooting, and are a poor unit choice.

Warp Talons are fine imo. Give them a mark of Slaanesh and they can be brutal, they still move very fast and can be assaulting very early on even if you're not deep striking them, which you probably shouldn't do.

 MrScience wrote:

 kcwm wrote:
My only issue with the Codex is that they had a great opportunity to give Chaos a unique unit in either the Mutilators or Warp Talons and spit the bit on both.

The Warp Talon models are really cool looking, but I can't see myself EVER fielding them. Their special ability would be great if Chaos had beacons in Icons or if they had an ability similar to Descent of Angels, but they don't, have no shooting, and are a poor unit choice.

Warp Talons are fine imo. Give them a mark of Slaanesh and they can be brutal, they still move very fast and can be assaulting very early on even if you're not deep striking them, which you probably shouldn't do.

Except for if the units are in cover, in which case they'll be striking on I1 and that MoS will be useless due to not having frag grenades. Not to mention seeing as they die like marines, if you aren't deepstriking them they will be shot at because they are fast, cost you a number of points, and can be easily killed just like a marine.

Warp Talons are fine imo. Give them a mark of Slaanesh and they can be brutal, they still move very fast and can be assaulting very early on even if you're not deep striking them, which you probably shouldn't do.

Exactly. You probably shouldn't do the ONE SPECIAL THING the unit is suppose to be good at. Perfect example of an epic fail imo, and another good example of why the new book does not fit as well into 6th as it should.

"Here's a unit made for close combat deep striking. Just remember that you can't assault the turn you come in. And you scatter. And your army has almost nothing to keep you from scattering. And the special ability that you paid extra points for is based on NOT scattering when you deep strike .." The unit practically cancels itself out.

Is the criteria about whether the codex is good or not is how powerful it is?

yes , because a bad or weak codex gives less fun to a fluff player , someone who wants to play at tournaments or just plays against few friends.
who do you think was more happy in 5th ed SW players or nid players ?

Dont see why being mid-tier is a BAD thing, the problem with the toptiers is they seem to get to the point of identicle lists and rock-paper-scissors etc.

so it is better to always roll rock and even then the rock aint that awesome . the chaos list doesnt do anything better then a SW list can.

 doc1234 wrote:

On a side not, how do the chaos specific sorcerer powers fare on table?

tzeench is very bad . slanesh is okish , but it is better to run biomancy or telepathy. nurgle is not as bad as tzeench , but it isnt good either . most of the time chaos players they take 1 power they have to take from their god and rest from rule book powers which are better.

Warp Talons are fine imo.

a melee only unit , in a shoty edition , costed like terminators . We probably have a different definition of fine .

Slaanesh at least has powers that seem pretty Slaaneshy, and symphony meshes with the sonic weapons.

Tzeentzch powers are three variations of zapping someone and random to boot.

Im a newbie, and have played fifth edition, but most of the complaints i do not fully understand, what makes chaos space marines a better 4th edition army rather than 6th?

wolfmerc wrote:
Im a newbie, and have played fifth edition, but most of the complaints i do not fully understand, what makes chaos space marines a better 4th edition army rather than 6th?

Lack of cheaper flyers or counters to them , too many melee units , specialy too many bad melee units in a single codex[talons, maulerfiends, melee oblits ] oversized elite . Most of the new stuff is bad ,for example dark apostols or warsmiths are just horrible .