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Well, how would you go about it? What nasty tricks can the former pull and where do they shine? Will they be outshot and suffer too much from Book + Shadow + Metal, before having to tackle White Lions, Swordmasters and Mindrazored Spearmen?

Wulfrik and 99 marauders (20 wide) with flails appearing to the rear or on the flank of a HE army is always a treat.

If they are relying on lots of dice the scroll that makes causes wound on 5+ for each power dice used is always nice.

Our local CW player is trying out a unit of 10 of the new jugger mounted chaos warriors with great success.

Haha, Wulfrik is certainly nifty, although 99 Marauders seems a bit extreme (not least because I only own 16 right now). Is something akin to that number the norm these days?

10 Juggers seem like a great target for a Book Mage with Metal, or even a secondary L1 with just the sig, or an invitation to lead them around the nose with an Eagle or two. That's quite a lot of points. Doesn't that make it easier for the opposition to focus their efforts on one unit after the other?

MoT level 4 with gateway works wonders. Level 1 with fireball is effective. And as always, a level 4 shadow. Not just for mindrazor, but enfeebling cast at the right time and a 4-6 for the strength debuff ruins Lions and swordsmastered. Death magic can counter HE quite well. as a book mage/Teclis will have NO protection against the snipes. Knights work wonders. A unit of 8-9, backed up by 2 warshrines with MoT and favour of the gods makes a 1+ armour, 3+ ward stubborn unit that wrecks face.

Without relying on specific "tricks" etc...

High Elves don't like slog combat - particularly step up - they are T3 and 5+ armour at best once in combat. They counter this with buffs and hex's to contol combat ( reducing movement, toughness, ws and boosting strength etc) and redirecting and blocking with eagles.

As the WOC player you need to make the correct decisions in dispelling and movement I'd say (rather easily said!). Maybe avoid the frenzied choices, as you really want to get into combat quickly and at maximum strength. A few magic missiles can take care of the birds, and maybe chip away at the elves - again easier said than done as the HE are strong in both offensive and defensive magic.

I

The black tongue/Infernal puppet can be great assets when considering the magical onslaught that is bound to happen. Also consider mixing and matching marauder blocks with warrior clusters to maximize your threats that can and will reach the HE line. I'd echo the suggestion of lore of shadow for the pure hilarity of weakening them so that the first blow against you will be much softer and also funny with T1 or S1 elves...

thedarkavenger wrote:
MoT level 4 with gateway works wonders. Level 1 with fireball is effective. And as always, a level 4 shadow. Not just for mindrazor, but enfeebling cast at the right time and a 4-6 for the strength debuff ruins Lions and swordsmastered. Death magic can counter HE quite well. as a book mage/Teclis will have NO protection against the snipes.

Oooh, some nice ideas there! 'Scuse my ignorance, is there a way to improve the chance of getting a particular spell (other than taking 2 wizards with the same lore)?

My wife plays high elves and I have just started WoC.

The only thing that gives me a head ache so far is the sword masters, she only has 10 so far but their high WS and always strikes first can cause a bit of a problem, I learnt not to charge them with marauders the hard way lol.

She also has 14 Reavers that prove to be very good at kiting me, the only saving grace is the high toughness of warriors.

 Mike der Ritter wrote:

thedarkavenger wrote:
MoT level 4 with gateway works wonders. Level 1 with fireball is effective. And as always, a level 4 shadow. Not just for mindrazor, but enfeebling cast at the right time and a 4-6 for the strength debuff ruins Lions and swordsmastered. Death magic can counter HE quite well. as a book mage/Teclis will have NO protection against the snipes.

Oooh, some nice ideas there! 'Scuse my ignorance, is there a way to improve the chance of getting a particular spell (other than taking 2 wizards with the same lore)?

Higher level mage. Or the item that gets you an extra spell.

@Daston, try taking the shadow level 4. Miasma their WS, and enfeeble them. They will strike first, but hit weak-average.

stonegiant wrote:

High Elves don't like slog combat - particularly step up - they are T3 and 5+ armour at best once in combat.

I see. However, I wonder if that is going to happen when Warriors fight their Elites. The latter seem tailor-made to hurt Warriors hard, and they cost about the same, so I would not expect a great discrepancy in numbers.

thedarkavenger wrote:

Higher level mage. Or the item that gets you an extra spell.

Ah, yes, I just saw it, the Homunkulus (or whatever it is called in English). Nice.

As to Miasma, does it make that much sense to hex WS? They usually hit us on 4+ with re-roll, and you'd need a very good Miasma to make them hit any worse. Lowering their Initiative could be interesting to stop the re-rolls (of course you could always go for the higher version and lower both).

 Mike der Ritter wrote:
I see. However, I wonder if that is going to happen when Warriors fight their Elites. The latter seem tailor-made to hurt Warriors hard, and they cost about the same, so I would not expect a great discrepancy in numbers.

Chaos Warriors Are WS4, T4, with a 4+ save. So with the mark of nurgle, banner of rage, they will be hitting you on 5s, or possibly sixes with a good miasma.

 Mike der Ritter wrote:
As to Miasma, does it make that much sense to hex WS? They usually hit us on 4+ with re-roll, and you'd need a very good Miasma to make them hit any worse. Lowering their Initiative could be interesting to stop the re-rolls (of course you could always go for the higher version and lower both).

Generally you should go for the big one, unless you are in a special situation. I.E. Wood elves or shooty dwarves. If you don't want to rely on magic, you could double buff knights to get a 3+ ward save.

Chaos Warriors are WS5.

MoN is -1WS, which only alters the roll needed to hit if the enemy is WS3 or WS6. Elves are WS4 IIRC.

 Grey Templar wrote:
Chaos Warriors are WS5.

MoN is -1WS, which only alters the roll needed to hit if the enemy is WS3 or WS6. Elves are WS4 IIRC.

I thought it was -1 to hit? Or is that just for shooting.

thedarkavenger wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
Chaos Warriors are WS5.

MoN is -1WS, which only alters the roll needed to hit if the enemy is WS3 or WS6. Elves are WS4 IIRC.

I thought it was -1 to hit? Or is that just for shooting.

Shooting is -1BS, which has a big effect on shooting. Of course shooting isn't all that dangerous anyway.

 Mike der Ritter wrote:

stonegiant wrote:

High Elves don't like slog combat - particularly step up - they are T3 and 5+ armour at best once in combat.

I see. However, I wonder if that is going to happen when Warriors fight their Elites. The latter seem tailor-made to hurt Warriors hard, and they cost about the same, so I would not expect a great discrepancy in numbers.

Your warriors are troops however, and you can bulk up on Marauders which love step up even more...

Basically, every HE elite unit hates fighting cheap models. IE: marauders.

Warriors will chop up HE core(spearmen, archers, and Seaguard) while Marauders will destroy their elites. Just make sure you bring plenty of marauders.


HEs hit hard, but they fall over to limp noodles.

Watch out for marauders vs. spear elves. The spears have a decent chance of winning that one by 4 or 5 kills.

Yeah, thats why you send your Warriors with shields into them. Your warriors will have a 3+/6+ save against the elves 6+. Who cares if they hit you first?

thedarkavenger wrote:
Chaos Warriors Are WS4, T4, with a 4+ save. So with the mark of nurgle, banner of rage, they will be hitting you on 5s, or possibly sixes with a good miasma.

With a good Miasma...hmm. Doesn't everything work fine with some good rolling? That doesn't sound like a real tactic.

And what does the Banner of Rage have to do with this? It doesn't make WoC harder to hit.

stonegiant wrote:

Your warriors are troops however, and you can bulk up on Marauders which love step up even more...

Model availability and my wife's tolerance disagree. Anyways, on paper (!) it seems like Swordmaster wouldn't really mind fighting Marauders. They'd probably kill them in droves, just like they do with my State troops. I can see that GW troops hit back harder than State troops (who doesn't) but still...two attacks at high strength that are the next best thing to autohits...ouch.
----

In any case, I just had my first two games (500 & 1k) against HE. The first was a pretty bloody affair; my chariot killed his Swordmasters, my wizard killed his bows, his chariot killed my Warriors with a flank charge one by 1. He had his mage and a single archer left, I had the chariot, so a draw.

In the second game, I braved a round or two of magic, a hail of arrows, then my Knights slammed into DP 1 and killed them, chariot 1 held up WL for three rounds, chariot 2 charged his archers, DP 2 flank charged chariot, Warriors flank charge DP = all Elves died. Chariot then overruns his wizard while my sorceror magiced his Eagle to death and blood-roared a crucial WL, which fled - massacre for me. Not so bad for my first games with the book, so obviously I was worrying too much. Otoh, his rolls weren't great; one of the few times he rolled normally he killed all my Knights with Metal's sig spell.

He used metal? Interesting...

Good call on the chariot thing. Chariots are a total pain to get rid of and hit elves HARD. Anything that auto-hits is a nightmare for elves due to the lack of number and expensive troops.

war wrote:
He used metal? Interesting...

Why? That lore looks tailor-made to kick WoC ass...? Okay, it can fail against a list heavy on Marauders but even then +1 AP to hit or +2 AS White Lions are a pita I imagine, and the #6 spell is always useful (I wasn't going to go Throgg and all trolls).

The chariots were indeed amazing. In fact, they were thrice charged themselves. The first time one was hit by White Lions (whittled down to 8 before but still). It killed five of them over 2 rounds and did one wound to an Eagle before it died and let me kill the survivors with magic. The second time one was charged by Swordmasters I believe, suffered a wound and proceeded to kill them all (okay, he failed two Ld tests, that was a bit unlucky, but he was lucky to get the charge in, so it evened out). The third time, I charged his Archers who held on steadfast and was then flanked by DP's - again they did just a single wound, I held, and they in turn got flank-charged.

I'm not saying its a bad lore, just not one that you see all that often. Generally High elves will use shadows against everyone because it complements their armies so well.

Thats some amazing luck with the chariots. They're tough, but i'm surprised that they could stand up to that much damage. Clearly you need to paint that figure special as it is chosen by some chaos deamon for greatness.

The problem with Metal is that it is sooo specilized. To the point where you better hope you are facing WoC or all your spells will be practicaly worthless. And then you still hope he isn't bringing marauder hordes.

war wrote:
I'm not saying its a bad lore, just not one that you see all that often. Generally High elves will use shadows against everyone because it complements their armies so well.

Ah, but this is an escalation campaign. One of the rules is that you can use each spell save the sigs (or the same one in bound form) only once in the campaign. A bit problematic when you only have access to one lore but neither HE nor WoC suffer from such a drawback. I'm pretty sure he will use shadow in 2k or 2,500. Since he's already "burned" two rather good spells from Metal - Transformation & Aiban's - I don't think I'll see it again.

Thats some amazing luck with the chariots. They're tough, but i'm surprised that they could stand up to that much damage. Clearly you need to paint that figure special as it is chosen by some chaos deamon for greatness.

Indeed. I'm under no illusions that it will last, at least once I got really lucky when his 3-4 WL hit once, re-rolled and still only hit once, and together they held three times on Ld 7. Otoh, he's had his fair share of luck in other games - it happens, and it evens out. Mostly.

 Grey Templar wrote:
The problem with Metal is that it is sooo specilized. To the point where you better hope you are facing WoC or all your spells will be practicaly worthless. And then you still hope he isn't bringing marauder hordes.

Well, he knew I was bringing WoC, I knew he was bringing HE, and we both have a good idea of what the other one owns. Yes, I *could* go out and buy 100 Marauders today but I'm not going to for all kinds of reasons. I might bring some with Wulfrik in a bigger game.

Things that work well against HE (which I play against a friends WoC a lot):

-large units of marauders with great weapons. There is very little I can send at these guys solo (in horde and with frenzy, spears tend to get butchered, and I don't have enough elites to kill the unit before they hit back). The way i deal with them is try to redirect all game.

-WoC with sheilds and MoT. Elves are T3 and 5+ armor, so even str4 attacks put the hurt on. With the high defense, you shouldn't take too many wounds, and give out a bunch.

-lvl4 with Tzeench magic and puppet. If you get Treason and Gateway, HE will have a very hard time prioritizing dispells, and one of those getting through can change the game (oh, those 14 swordmasters attack themselves 28 times at Str5? good luck having a unit after that).

-Hellcannons. One is bad enough, two is freaken scary. Str5 templates are a direct counter to T3 5+ save elites. Not to mention if you get the miscast missfire, combine that with puppet and you may just win the game.

-Chariots are also good (impacts before ASF)
-Throgg is a beast if he doesn't have flaming (last game, he managed to run throgg to the flank of my WL horde and his breath took out 19 of 30 white lions).

Thanks a lot, Texx. Marauder hordes will take some time to buy, assemble and paint, and I actually prefer the full plate army with spices (Shrine, Trolls, Cannon...).

Shields + MoT went swimmingly indeed. I'm planning to get some halberd sprues for a first rank or so to be able to field those but I fear what WL or SM would do to them. Never thought I'd miss having access to Speed of Light. Such units would have to be pretty big in order to hit back. Staying big until combat can be problematic with a Book Mage or Teclis I gather.

Yep, I should probably use a Tzeentch Mage in one of the coming games; he's too good to pass up. At first, that was what made me look elsewhere simply not to be that guy with his netlist but once I see Teclis - and I'm sure I will at some point -, it's gloves off. What does Teclis cost again (just give me an equivalent in Swordmasters or Shield Warriors)? Can he be fielded in 2k?

One or multiple Hellcannons are next on my to-buy list, way above Marauders. I never even thought about combining it with Puppet. However, I don't expect HE wizards - still talking about the Book Mage and Teclis mainly - to miscast all that often, so taking the Puppet for the odd misfire seems not so useful.

Throgg also looks quite interesting indeed.

By the way, I had a kind of a practice game against Dark Elves the other day. His mindrazored, poison, KB, +d3 attacks Assassin was a sight to see how he sliced through Chaos Knights as if they weren't there but I managed a beautiful textbook divert on his Knights and took those out, while my Tzeentchian block held off Spears to the flank and Black Guard to the front - amazing performance indeed. Won by about 200 points or so.

 Grey Templar wrote:
Yeah, thats why you send your Warriors with shields into them. Your warriors will have a 3+/6+ save against the elves 6+. Who cares if they hit you first?

I think they have 5++ you forget the parry.

Warrior of Tzeench, Chosen of Tzeench, marauder hordes, and warshrines are all full of win against high elves.
A big troll unit (8) led by a stubborn lord with dragon helm is pretty sweet too.
Nice thing about high elves is the lack of shooting that can snipe characters. No stone throwers or cannons.

-Matt

BaconUprising wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
Yeah, thats why you send your Warriors with shields into them. Your warriors will have a 3+/6+ save against the elves 6+. Who cares if they hit you first?

I think they have 5++ you forget the parry.

D'oh I can't believe I forgot.