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Good shout, I'd forgotten about Skarbrand. That's reminded me of An'ggrath though, who is like the uber version of Skarbrand http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/An%27ggrath#.UME30tlKSaQ. This even states that An'ggrath is greater than Skarbrand in almost every respect.

You forgot about Skarbrand?

This An'ggrath fellow sounds awesome though.

I mean even the Inquisition fear him?

Grey Knights fear him?


That is amazing!

It's even more embarrassing considering that I'm a Daemon player.

Void__Dragon wrote:

 d3m01iti0n wrote:
Lucius the Eternal. You kill him, but you become him. Either you lose, or you lose. Winning.

I assume he avoids Necrons like the plague.

Tyranids as well.

Can't think of a 'best fighter'. The setting is too diverse. For pure martial skill probably daemon Angron.

 Rampage wrote:
It's even more embarrassing considering that I'm a Daemon player.

tut tut tut.

I'll put my 2 cents on Orikan the Diviner *Empowered* of course, he becomes a supper beatstick that ignores armor saves at St7, hes T7 with a 3+ invul and W4!!!

This guy is insane

 Kaldor wrote:
Well, as I understand it when you kill a Daemon in the Materium, you banish it back to the Warp, and it is stuck there for an indeterminate amount of time.

True.

If you kill a Daemon while in the Warp, I don't believe there are any penalties? It just re-spawns almost instantly? So no, I wouldn't say he's much more effective while in there.

Speculation.

Also: Nurgle's garden did not grow back instantly, nor did those infesting it. It took a deal of time, directly implying that, no, they aren't respawned almost instantly.

Also, if some random chump Captain of the Grey Knights can take down Angron, by himself, in hand to hand combat, I have no trouble believing Draigo can drop Mortarion, hack the heart from his lifeless body and desecrate it as some kind of lasting insult to the Daemon.

Jesus Christ. The grossest part about this statement is that I know for a fact that you at least claim to have read the Emperor's Gift. So either you lied about that, or you are being intellectually dishonest.

A. Random chump captain? Hur. Taremar Aurellian in TEG is explicitly said to have a level of prestige and standing on par with grandmasters of their order, and is in fact a legendary figure among the Grey Knights.

B. By himself? Are you ignoring the dozens of Grey Knights Angron butchered in the melee? Are you ignoring the telekine fields casted by GKs to protect their force? Are you ignoring when Hyperion, bolstered by the psychic power of his fellows, shattered the Black Blade? Are you ignoring all remaining Grey Knights projecting their psychic power at Angron, a blast of such power it stunned him and he struggled to retain his grip on the materium, allowing the wounded Taremar to banish Angron, only to succumb to his injuries and die immediately after?

C. Draigo didn't just "defeat" Mortarion. He knocked him over after smashing through his retinue, held him down, and drew on his heart, and did this all by himself. Taremar's feat was one of great heroism and sacrifice. Draigo went "RAWR Draigo SMASH!!!" and easily curbed a Daemon Primarch.

And the whole 'stuck in the Warp' thing only works if we assume the Chaos Gods have molded the Warp to suit him. It only works if we assume they want him to be there. The Warp after all, is not like the Materium. It has no gravity, no air, no cause and effect, no physics. No reality. If Draigo were in the Warp and willed his arm to move, he's just as likely to explode into a ball of glitter as he is to actually move his arm. The only way there could be a 'ground' for him to walk on, and 'air' for him to move through, the only way there could be an 'up' and a 'down' and so on and so forth, is if the Chaos Gods built it for him that way.

"That anything could exist in the Realm of Chaos, yet be utterly immune to the will of the Chaos Gods, was a fresh impossibility in a domain riven with the impossible. Yet if the Dark Gods could not vanquish Draigo, neither could Draigo win any meaningful victory."

Oh, and looking this up told me something else:

"The daemons he slew inevitably returned in new bodies..."

Implying it isn't instant at all.

And think about it from their timeless, infinite perspective. Crushing an annoying insect who wandered into their home is easy, but the fun is over instantly. How much more fun to make him run through a maze, over and over, repeating the same tasks, over and over, to see how long it takes this 'incorruptible' man to become corrupt? One century? Two? Ten? Twenty? Two hundred? The only thing that is certain is that even the most steadfast of Grey Knights could only take that punishment for so long.

I always find it amusing that people really think Ward thought this deeply into it.

Sorry but no, the text directly states that he is immune to their will, and they can't vanquish him.

Besides, the whole thing is hardly unprecedented. Remember the squad of Blood Angels trekking across a Daemon planet in Warhammer Monthly? I'll be the first to admit that a Daemon planet is not the same as the Warp Proper, but it does set an example.

Frankly no, I do not, but as you said, it isn't the same, and I highly doubt they have the same ludicrously over the top feats as Draigo. Any of them beat a Bloodthirster by punching the gak out of him?

 Void__Dragon wrote:
A. Random chump captain? Hur. Taremar Aurellian in TEG is explicitly said to have a level of prestige and standing on par with grandmasters of their order, and is in fact a legendary figure among the Grey Knights.

B. By himself? Are you ignoring the dozens of Grey Knights Angron butchered in the melee? Are you ignoring the telekine fields casted by GKs to protect their force? Are you ignoring when Hyperion, bolstered by the psychic power of his fellows, shattered the Black Blade? Are you ignoring all remaining Grey Knights projecting their psychic power at Angron, a blast of such power it stunned him and he struggled to retain his grip on the materium, allowing the wounded Taremar to banish Angron, only to succumb to his injuries and die immediately after?

C. Draigo didn't just "defeat" Mortarion. He knocked him over after smashing through his retinue, held him down, and drew on his heart, and did this all by himself. Taremar's feat was one of great heroism and sacrifice. Draigo went "RAWR Draigo SMASH!!!" and easily curbed a Daemon Primarch.

I thought that would get a bite.

No, I'm not ignoring any of that. That's entirely the point. Some Captain who, despite his actions, didn't even warrant naming in the Grey Knights codex, took down Angron man-to-man, one-on-one.

All that other stuff happened before he took him down.

Now, let's look at Draigo and Mortation. What happened there? We don't know. But it's safe to assume a battle of a similar narrative occurred. After all, Geronitan and Draigo were hardly out gallivanting around by themselves. And it's hardly fair to assume that Mortarion and the Deathshroud were just going for a stroll, leaving the rest of the plague hordes at home watching TV.

No, this was a massive conflict between a significant concentration of Grey Knights, and a Daemon Primarch and his cohorts. Geronitan attempted to pull of a 'Taremar' and got his but whupped. It's safe to say at this point that Mortarion is not doing too well. Draigo then stepped in, and performed a lesser feat than Taremar did, and yet gets years of derision and hate for it.

"That anything could exist in the Realm of Chaos, yet be utterly immune to the will of the Chaos Gods, was a fresh impossibility in a domain riven with the impossible. Yet if the Dark Gods could not vanquish Draigo, neither could Draigo win any meaningful victory."

An egg is immune to my will. I can still smash it if I want. Like I said, there is no ground, no air, no reality in the warp. There can only be ground for him to walk on, air for him to breath, and laws of physics to enable him to exist like he would in the Materium, if the Chaos Gods willed it. The fact that they can't just turn him into a pumpkin, because he's no from the Warp (which is what 'immune to their will' means) doesn't mean he just gets to do whatever he wants.

So they create a world for him, and populate it with tests. So what if he passes them? As you said, he can achieve no meaningful victory.

Frankly no, I do not, but as you said, it isn't the same, and I highly doubt they have the same ludicrously over the top feats as Draigo. Any of them beat a Bloodthirster by punching the gak out of him?

They took down a Warlord Titan with krak grenades. Does that count?

 Kaldor wrote:


No, I'm not ignoring any of that. That's entirely the point. Some Captain who, despite his actions, didn't even warrant naming in the Grey Knights codex, took down Angron man-to-man, one-on-one.

Considering that TEG came out over a year after the codex, I'm not sure why you would think that a character who didn't exist until May 2012 would be in a book that came out in April 2011.

The book literally states that he is a legendary Grey Knight within the order. Trying to lowball him by pointing out that he's not mentioned in a book that came out a year before his conception doesn't make sense. Please stop, Kaldor. Don't do this.

BlaxicanX wrote:

 Kaldor wrote:


No, I'm not ignoring any of that. That's entirely the point. Some Captain who, despite his actions, didn't even warrant naming in the Grey Knights codex, took down Angron man-to-man, one-on-one.

Considering that TEG came out over a year after the codex, I'm not sure why you would think that a character who didn't exist until May 2012 would be in a book that came out in April 2011.

The book literally states that he is a legendary Grey Knight within the order. Trying to lowball him by pointing out that he's not mentioned in a book that came out a year before his conception doesn't make sense. Please stop, Kaldor. Don't do this.

Even before TEG came out, someone had to be responsible for delivering the 'death blow' to Angron. And while he may have been a cool dude, he wasn't a Grandmaster.

Draigo didn't even pull off a trick as good as Taremar, yet when he defeats Mortarion he's derided for it.

 Kaldor wrote:


Even before TEG came out, someone had to be responsible for delivering the 'death blow' to Angron. And while he may have been a cool dude, he wasn't a Grandmaster.

Draigo didn't even pull off a trick as good as Taremar, yet when he defeats Mortarion he's derided for it.

Yeah. That dude was Taremar.

Also, not it isn't safe to assume a similar battle took place. The codex gives the whole thing, what, half of a sentence? Hell, we don't even know if Mortarion actually died. All it says is that Draigo carved the name on the heart. Nothing about anyone, except for the Supreme Grand Master, dying.

kharn, or THE EMPRA if he counts...

Kaldor is trolling again, I see.

Speaking of TEG, ADB posted his lamentations over the GK codex, how he had to scrap a lot of his original plot points because of Ward's mess.

I'm telling you guys those gk guys just got some attack through the invulnerable save of the prince and they failed their leadership test and got ID'd. It's really too bad about DPs losing eternal warrior but I could see a lucky draigo (or similar bro) really going to town on a nurgle or khorne DP. Have to be pretty lucky though.

 Kaldor wrote:

BlaxicanX wrote:

 Kaldor wrote:


No, I'm not ignoring any of that. That's entirely the point. Some Captain who, despite his actions, didn't even warrant naming in the Grey Knights codex, took down Angron man-to-man, one-on-one.

Considering that TEG came out over a year after the codex, I'm not sure why you would think that a character who didn't exist until May 2012 would be in a book that came out in April 2011.

The book literally states that he is a legendary Grey Knight within the order. Trying to lowball him by pointing out that he's not mentioned in a book that came out a year before his conception doesn't make sense. Please stop, Kaldor. Don't do this.

Even before TEG came out, someone had to be responsible for delivering the 'death blow' to Angron. And while he may have been a cool dude, he wasn't a Grandmaster.

Draigo didn't even pull off a trick as good as Taremar, yet when he defeats Mortarion he's derided for it.

Probably because Angron was banished following an epic battle thanks to great sacrifice, while Mortarion was curbstomped with no more note than an 'oh, and then this happened too.'

 Kaldor wrote:
I thought that would get a bite.

No, I'm not ignoring any of that.

Yes you are.

That's entirely the point.

You have no legitimate point.

Some Captain who, despite his actions, didn't even warrant naming in the Grey Knights codex, took down Angron man-to-man, one-on-one.

It is impressive that you manage to stick to your lies after it becomes woefully apparent that you're wrong.

Taremar is explicitly attributed a level of status, prestige, and prowess worthy of any Grandmaster.

Also, Ward probably had no idea who the feth Taremar Aurellian is. That Ward might not have seen cause to include him in his codex means exactly dick.

All that other stuff happened before he took him down.

Hurrr. I hope you're trolling me. The alternative is far more unflattering towards you.

Taremar happened to strike the final blow, he didn't beat Angron one on one with no aid. Unlike Kaldor "Alone and unaided" Draigo.

Now, let's look at Draigo and Mortation. What happened there? We don't know. But it's safe to assume a battle of a similar narrative occurred. After all, Geronitan and Draigo were hardly out gallivanting around by themselves. And it's hardly fair to assume that Mortarion and the Deathshroud were just going for a stroll, leaving the rest of the plague hordes at home watching TV.

Sure, and hey? How about we assume that Leman Russ and the Khan jumped through a Warp Rift to cut Mortarion's arms and legs off first? Why don't we assume that Draigo in fact managed to get so close to Mortarion without dying by lifting the skirt of his power armour and giving him a peek of his goods?

No, this was a massive conflict between a significant concentration of Grey Knights, and a Daemon Primarch and his cohorts. Geronitan attempted to pull of a 'Taremar' and got his but whupped. It's safe to say at this point that Mortarion is not doing too well. Draigo then stepped in, and performed a lesser feat than Taremar did, and yet gets years of derision and hate for it.

Such a massive concentration in fact that we get a three or so line segment dedicated to describing it.

You have no idea how many Grey Knights are there, nor how well this sole Grey Knight did against Mortarion. Cease this mummer's farce.

An egg is immune to my will. I can still smash it if I want.

Look up the definition of "vanquish" and get back to me.

Like I said, there is no ground, no air, no reality in the warp. There can only be ground for him to walk on, air for him to breath, and laws of physics to enable him to exist like he would in the Materium, if the Chaos Gods willed it. The fact that they can't just turn him into a pumpkin, because he's no from the Warp (which is what 'immune to their will' means) doesn't mean he just gets to do whatever he wants.

The Chaos Gods did not will that Draigo could survive there. The pen of Sir Matthew Ward did.

You don't need to press how little sense and how horrible the fluff is, I already know that.

So they create a world for him, and populate it with tests. So what if he passes them? As you said, he can achieve no meaningful victory.

They didn't create a world to test him. He's romping through the Warp burning down their houses.

They took down a Warlord Titan with krak grenades. Does that count?

Quite possibly actually, but I'd have to read the passage myself. Which issue?

Also, Draigo's exploit is bad, as Durza said, because while Taremar's was detailed as an epic battle showcasing incredible heroism and sacrifice (Both the wider conflict written by Dembski-Bowden, and the earlier written rendition of Taremar and Angron fighting themselves by McNeill), Draigo's reads off as a schoolyard bully pushing down the awkward goth kid and scribbling on him.

Wait wow... there are actual books to the first Armageddon war? What are the titles?

The Emperor's Gift is a fairly recent book by Aaron Dembski-Bowden.

A good read, but the last third or so of the book was pretty balls.

Wait a minute, are we talking about the best fighter 'fluff wise'? Or best fighter in the the game itself?

Thanks V_D much obliged I'll look into it!

Oh, and more information is detailed in White Dwarf 279, Codicium Imperialis: The First Battle for Armageddon, by Graham McNeill and Andy Hoare. This details Taremar's fight with Angron a bit more closely.

 Void__Dragon wrote:

No, this was a massive conflict between a significant concentration of Grey Knights, and a Daemon Primarch and his cohorts. Geronitan attempted to pull of a 'Taremar' and got his but whupped. It's safe to say at this point that Mortarion is not doing too well. Draigo then stepped in, and performed a lesser feat than Taremar did, and yet gets years of derision and hate for it.

Such a massive concentration in fact that we get a three or so line segment dedicated to describing it.

You have no idea how many Grey Knights are there, nor how well this sole Grey Knight did against Mortarion. Cease this mummer's farce.

So complain about it being short. Only a moron would assume that the named combatants were the only combatants. Don't complain about Draigo dropping a Primarch on the one hand, but laud Taremar for dropping a Primarch on the other.

And yes, Taremar did it alone, and unaided. Unless you're going for a very obscure definition of 'unaided'. Sure, Angron was weakened by previous events in the battle, but why would you assume that Mortarion was not? Because it's not explicitly mentioned? That says a lot, really.

 Kaldor wrote:
So complain about it being short. Only a moron would assume that the named combatants were the only combatants. Don't complain about Draigo dropping a Primarch on the one hand, but laud Taremar for dropping a Primarch on the other.

And yes, Taremar did it alone, and unaided. Unless you're going for a very obscure definition of 'unaided'. Sure, Angron was weakened by previous events in the battle, but why would you assume that Mortarion was not? Because it's not explicitly mentioned? That says a lot, really.

I accept your concessions, first off.

Taremar needed to have the remaining Grey Knights focus all of their psychic power at Angron to stun him, keeping him from moving, let alone fighting back.

He wasn't alone, nor was he unaided.

Try harder, sorry but you lose.

 Void__Dragon wrote:

Try harder, sorry but you lose.

lol.

Nice try, son.

Was anyone else physically confronting Angron at the time Taremar was? No. He was alone. No one else was fighting Angron. He was unaided.

TEG explicitly mentions Taremar facing Angron alone.

Your problem with Draigo shouldn't be that he took down a Primarch. There's precedent for it. If anything, your problem should be that more page-space wasn't devoted to detailing the act.

I'm not going to tell you it's a wonderful piece of background, but it's certainly no worse than the overwhelming majority of the background, and insisting that it's so awful and terrible says a lot more about you than it says about the story itself.

Hyperion passed out before Taremar confronted Angron.

What we do know is that every single Grey Knight poured their psychic power at Angron, stunning him so Taremar could land a killing blow.

And nowhere have I said that Draigo banishing a Daemon Primarch in general is bad, it was always the presentation. Notice how I illustrated that while Taremar's exploit was a trial of hardship, heroism, and sacrifice, Draigo sort of just pushed him over and beat him up.

You should really work on your reading comprehension.

 Void__Dragon wrote:
And nowhere have I said that Draigo banishing a Daemon Primarch in general is bad

I accept your concession.

Do you need tissues for your issues Kaldor?

 Void__Dragon wrote:
Do you need tissues for your issues Kaldor?

Fry.jpg

 Kaldor wrote:

I'm not going to tell you it's a wonderful piece of background, but it's certainly no worse than the overwhelming majority of the background, and insisting that it's so awful and terrible says a lot more about you than it says about the story itself.

Except that it is, much, much worse. A daemon primarch actively jobs like a bitch. Then one guy travels through the warp totally immune to the power of chaos and bullies the chaos gods, burning down their gardens and killing their followers? One guy is outdoing the godamn Emperor.

I'm sorry but you're objectively wrong here. This is not a matter of opinion, this is inconsistant with the rest of the universe, it's bad fluff, some of the worst, and there's no defending it.

ScreamPaste wrote:

 Kaldor wrote:

I'm not going to tell you it's a wonderful piece of background, but it's certainly no worse than the overwhelming majority of the background, and insisting that it's so awful and terrible says a lot more about you than it says about the story itself.

Except that it is, much, much worse. A daemon primarch actively jobs like a bitch. Then one guy travels through the warp totally immune to the power of chaos and bullies the chaos gods, burning down their gardens and killing their followers? One guy is outdoing the godamn Emperor.

I'm sorry but you're objectively wrong here. This is not a matter of opinion, this is inconsistant with the rest of the universe, it's bad fluff, some of the worst, and there's no defending it.

Oh please. Have you read anything about the Warp?