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 Kaldor wrote:

ScreamPaste wrote:

 Kaldor wrote:

I'm not going to tell you it's a wonderful piece of background, but it's certainly no worse than the overwhelming majority of the background, and insisting that it's so awful and terrible says a lot more about you than it says about the story itself.

Except that it is, much, much worse. A daemon primarch actively jobs like a bitch. Then one guy travels through the warp totally immune to the power of chaos and bullies the chaos gods, burning down their gardens and killing their followers? One guy is outdoing the godamn Emperor.

I'm sorry but you're objectively wrong here. This is not a matter of opinion, this is inconsistant with the rest of the universe, it's bad fluff, some of the worst, and there's no defending it.

Oh please. Have you read anything about the Warp?

Just three editions worth of chaos fluff. How about responding to the part where my post outlines why you're wrong and conceding that yes, that is terrible, terrible fluff, instead of asking for imaginary credentials? <3

ScreamPaste wrote:
Just three editions worth of chaos fluff.

Well then, you'll be fully aware that the Warp cannot sustain mortal life.

Golly, I wonder how Draigo manages to live there then?

Kaldor wrote:

ScreamPaste wrote:
Just three editions worth of chaos fluff.

Well then, you'll be fully aware that the Warp cannot sustain mortal life.

Golly, I wonder how Draigo manages to live there then?

I already covered this in my post, see here:

ScreamPaste wrote:This is not a matter of opinion, this is inconsistant with the rest of the universe, it's bad fluff, some of the worst, and there's no defending it.

This is the part where you realize 'hey, he's right!'. You know, if you feel like being logical.

ScreamPaste wrote:
This is the part where you realize 'hey, he's right!'. You know, if you feel like being logical.

You know, you shouldn't interrupt when the grown-ups are talking.

You have nothing to counter, nothing to add. Concession accepted.

ScreamPaste wrote:
You have nothing to counter, nothing to add. Concession accepted.

As far as your argument is concerned, there is nothing to counter. Better luck next time, kid.

ScreamPaste wrote:

 Kaldor wrote:

I'm not going to tell you it's a wonderful piece of background, but it's certainly no worse than the overwhelming majority of the background, and insisting that it's so awful and terrible says a lot more about you than it says about the story itself.

Except that it is, much, much worse. A daemon primarch actively jobs like a bitch. Then one guy travels through the warp totally immune to the power of chaos and bullies the chaos gods, burning down their gardens and killing their followers? One guy is outdoing the godamn Emperor.

I'm sorry but you're objectively wrong here. This is not a matter of opinion, this is inconsistant with the rest of the universe, it's bad fluff, some of the worst, and there's no defending it.

Figured I'd bring this back to your exceedingly fleeting and oh-so-pretentious attention, Kaldor. Man, you might as well have named yourself Marty Stu before trying to argue that the Draigo incident is anything less than an unadulterated rape of 40k fluff.

Counter, contribute, or concede and gtfo. I don't have time to waste logic on someone whose only attempt at discussion is a series of moot, condescending attempts at getting the last word in.

willhman wrote:
Wait wow... there are actual books to the first Armageddon war? What are the titles?

last third of the "Emperors gift" was great...or not( if you have Magnus as avatar, because it stongly favors the wolves)...


@Kaldor - you are putting too much depth into Ward mistakes ( trying to rationalize bad writing ),I'm sorry but simple fact is that he did a poor job...
No offense, this is just my opinion....

 Garvy wrote:


@Kaldor - you are putting too much depth into Ward mistakes ( trying to rationalize bad writing ),I'm sorry but simple fact is that he did a poor job...
No offense, this is just my opinion....

What's so bad about it? I really like the way he portrayed Astartes in general and the Ultramarines and the Grey Knights in particular.

ScreamPaste wrote:
Counter, contribute, or concede and gtfo

Like I said, kid. Don't interrupt when the adults are talking.

Kaldor and ScreamPaste, calm down before the MODs come and shut the party down. Although I have to disagree with you, Mr. ScreamPaste - Draigo isn't outdoing the Emperor. I don't recall anything saying the man laying waste to the Warp itself, or completely obliterating his opponents.

 Admiral Valerian wrote:

 Garvy wrote:


@Kaldor - you are putting too much depth into Ward mistakes ( trying to rationalize bad writing ),I'm sorry but simple fact is that he did a poor job...
No offense, this is just my opinion....

What's so bad about it? I really like the way he portrayed Astartes in general and the Ultramarines and the Grey Knights in particular.

if it is ok by you, then it is ok by me...:-)start with 1d4chan, though he is little too much pissed, he has most of the facts straight...IMHO

 Garvy wrote:

 Admiral Valerian wrote:

 Garvy wrote:


@Kaldor - you are putting too much depth into Ward mistakes ( trying to rationalize bad writing ),I'm sorry but simple fact is that he did a poor job...
No offense, this is just my opinion....

What's so bad about it? I really like the way he portrayed Astartes in general and the Ultramarines and the Grey Knights in particular.

if it is ok by you, then it is ok by me...:-)start with 1d4chan, though he is little too much pissed, he has most of the facts straight...IMHO

I have...and TBH, I think most of the authors there ought to be flogged/keel-hauled

I'm going to ask again, because there appears to be two conversations (I'm not including the one where users are blatantly having a flame war... Wow, did I just say flame war? Been a long time since I said that) The two conversations are that of fluff, and that of the game, what I mean is, in the fluff, for example, a carnifex is an unstoppable killing machine, yet in the rules, if you know how to, you can kill it with ease. So, I think there needs to be a two separate threads, one for the people arguing who is the best fighter according to the stories or who is the best fighter according to in game stats.

Please and I ask this on behalf of the many people who wish to use this site for furthering their knowledge or giving out ideas about Warhammer 40k, take your bickering elsewhere. In my experience, people who act cordially tend to learn more and are less brash.

Well, if its one-on-one, there's too many to count. Lelith, Draigo, Dante, Mephiston, etc.

Kaldor wrote:

ScreamPaste wrote:
Counter, contribute, or concede and gtfo

Like I said, kid. Don't interrupt when the adults are talking.

Concession accepted. Your lack of anything in the form of a true response has shown me exactly what any of your posts on this forum will be worth. I can get pretentious drivel anywhere on the internet, thanks for the surplus, though. You're going on ignore now.

Admiral Valerian wrote:Kaldor and ScreamPaste, calm down before the MODs come and shut the party down. Although I have to disagree with you, Mr. ScreamPaste - Draigo isn't outdoing the Emperor. I don't recall anything saying the man laying waste to the Warp itself, or completely obliterating his opponents.

I don't take well to people who behave condescendingly with no substance behind their posts, is all. He's on ignore, now, though.

As for the outdoing the Emperor thing, IIRC it was the Emperor's crusade that was laying waste to the warp and weakening the chaos gods. He did not do this alone, or even personally.

Kaldor basically wanders the warp and bullies the chaos gods because Ward thought it would be a good idea. :p Might be wrong though.

ScreamPaste wrote:

I don't take well to people who behave condescendingly with no substance behind their posts, is all. He's on ignore, now, though.

No offense, but that's kinda petty.

As for the outdoing the Emperor thing, IIRC it was the Emperor's crusade that was laying waste to the warp and weakening the chaos gods. He did not do this alone, or even personally.

Kaldor basically wanders the warp and bullies the chaos gods because Ward thought it would be a good idea. :p Might be wrong though.

Fair enough (although I prefer to see that it wasn't the Great Crusade itself laying waste to the Warp, but the Emperor unleashing his psychic might without fear of being challenged by the Chaos Powers and their servants thanks to his legions) but Draigo hasn't obliterated anyone ala Horus.

ScreamPaste wrote:
You're going on ignore now.

Well we're talking about who the best fighter is. Draigo's feats may be impressive but they're all against one enemy: Chaos. Sure you can argue that its Chaos, the very threat that can devour the entire galaxy(though I doubt this'll happen this edition) but, considering that Draigo is a Grey Knight, we can conclude that he IS the BEST FIGHTER against CHAOS.

Against Orkz? Sure he may be effective but he won't be as cheesy as Yarrick.
Necrons? They won't even bother. Imhotek might cut his hand off.
Tau? Who cares about these guys in a fight?
Eldar? An Avatar might beat him.
Dark Eldar? Vect would black-hole-in-a-box his ass.
Imperium? Angry Marines will OWN his ass. Dante will Death Mask of Sanguinius him to death. Calgar will beat him up. Lorgar would sit on him. Mephiston will rage hump him. Yarrick will ask Ghazgul to beat him up because they're BFFs. And an IG Commisar will shoot him just because they can.

Against Chaos he's great. Not so much everything else.

Draigo got to rest before he fought Mortarion. You can't be elevated to Grand Master without ll the other incumbent Grand Masters present and, if we believe the fluff, they have tons of ceremonies and stuff you need to read and learn because SGMs of the Grey Knights have so many new toys and powers. Mortarion probably forgot to erect monuments to Nurgle so he could recharge. He probably forgot to make his FnP rolls as well.

 Garvy wrote:
last third of the "Emperors gift" was great...or not( if you have Magnus as avatar, because it stongly favors the wolves)...

What happened at Prospero is really no reason to hate on the Wolves given the new timeline. They are a tool like any other, and they did the job they were set to. Now in the Index Astartes timeline, where Russ convinced the Emperor that Horus was a mighty fine fellow and Magnus a corrupt traitor, sure you can hold them accountable (although even then, Horus was considered unrivaled and unparalleled, while Magnus was always the spooky magician that frightened the ignorant).

Thankfully, if you're inclined to hate on the Wolves, the HH timeline gives you plenty of reasons, including the events of "The Emperor's Gift".

@Kaldor - you are putting too much depth into Ward mistakes ( trying to rationalize bad writing ),I'm sorry but simple fact is that he did a poor job...
No offense, this is just my opinion....

Basically.

 Garvy wrote:
last third of the "Emperors gift" was great...or not( if you have Magnus as avatar, because it stongly favors the wolves)...

Contrary to what you may think, I don't as a rule hate the Space Wolves. I liked their portrayal in Prospero Burns for the most part (Their portrayal in their own codex though is gakky, that codex sucks), but no, I don't care for their extra-thick plot armour either. And the last third was stupid as hell.

And I see you're still sore after the sound thrashing I gave you a few months ago. This is good. Let it fester.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

ScreamPaste wrote:
As for the outdoing the Emperor thing, IIRC it was the Emperor's crusade that was laying waste to the warp and weakening the chaos gods. He did not do this alone, or even personally.

This is wrong. It was his incredible psychic power which was devastating the Realm of Chaos.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 enooNaMI wrote:
Well we're talking about who the best fighter is. Draigo's feats may be impressive but they're all against one enemy: Chaos. Sure you can argue that its Chaos, the very threat that can devour the entire galaxy(though I doubt this'll happen this edition) but, considering that Draigo is a Grey Knight, we can conclude that he IS the BEST FIGHTER against CHAOS.

Against Orkz? Sure he may be effective but he won't be as cheesy as Yarrick.
Necrons? They won't even bother. Imhotek might cut his hand off.
Tau? Who cares about these guys in a fight?
Eldar? An Avatar might beat him.
Dark Eldar? Vect would black-hole-in-a-box his ass.
Imperium? Angry Marines will OWN his ass. Dante will Death Mask of Sanguinius him to death. Calgar will beat him up. Lorgar would sit on him. Mephiston will rage hump him. Yarrick will ask Ghazgul to beat him up because they're BFFs. And an IG Commisar will shoot him just because they can.

Against Chaos he's great. Not so much everything else.

Draigo got to rest before he fought Mortarion. You can't be elevated to Grand Master without ll the other incumbent Grand Masters present and, if we believe the fluff, they have tons of ceremonies and stuff you need to read and learn because SGMs of the Grey Knights have so many new toys and powers. Mortarion probably forgot to erect monuments to Nurgle so he could recharge. He probably forgot to make his FnP rolls as well.

Draigo's beaten up a Bloodthirster in fisticuffs, lol.

 Void__Dragon wrote:


And I see you're still sore after the sound thrashing I gave you a few months ago. This is good. Let it fester.

Ha? I wish you to get well soon...seriously, man...

 Kaldor wrote:

 Void__Dragon wrote:

Try harder, sorry but you lose.

lol.

Nice try, son.

Was anyone else physically confronting Angron at the time Taremar was? No. He was alone. No one else was fighting Angron. He was unaided.

That's... not actually the definition of alone or unaided, you know. He was clearly aided by the psychic powers of the other Grey Knights, and though he physically confronted Angron alone, it wasn't in the same sense that Ward intended with Draigo against Mortarion. And of course, Taremar had the decency to die afterwards rather than romp through the Warp.

 Void__Dragon wrote:

Contrary to what you may think, I don't as a rule hate the Space Wolves. I liked their portrayal in Prospero Burns for the most part (Their portrayal in their own codex though is gakky, that codex sucks), but no, I don't care for their extra-thick plot armour either. And the last third was stupid as hell.

Well most of the 5th Edition Codexes were pretty bad especially the Space Marines and their counterparts but the SW and the BA still retained some modicum of awesomeness. The Vanilla Smurfs? Nope.

 Void__Dragon wrote:

This is wrong. It was his incredible psychic power which was devastating the Realm of Chaos.

By eliminating fear, superstition, religion, and magic, the Emperor meant to starve the Chaos Gods by withholding from them the sustenance they gleaned from worship, knowing and unknowing, that the minds of humanity poured into the Warp. If all he needed was his own psyker powers then he could have just went to the Eye of Chaos and kicked the Chaos Gods in the ass. Well, maybe not Nurgle and Tzeentch as Nurgle embodies life and its decay while Tzeentch embodies change which is necessary for order.

 Void__Dragon wrote:

 enooNaMI wrote:
Well we're talking about who the best fighter is. Draigo's feats may be impressive but they're all against one enemy: Chaos. Sure you can argue that its Chaos, the very threat that can devour the entire galaxy(though I doubt this'll happen this edition) but, considering that Draigo is a Grey Knight, we can conclude that he IS the BEST FIGHTER against CHAOS.

Against Orkz? Sure he may be effective but he won't be as cheesy as Yarrick.
Necrons? They won't even bother. Imhotek might cut his hand off.
Tau? Who cares about these guys in a fight?
Eldar? An Avatar might beat him.
Dark Eldar? Vect would black-hole-in-a-box his ass.
Imperium? Angry Marines will OWN his ass. Dante will Death Mask of Sanguinius him to death. Calgar will beat him up. Lorgar would sit on him. Mephiston will rage hump him. Yarrick will ask Ghazgul to beat him up because they're BFFs. And an IG Commisar will shoot him just because they can.

Against Chaos he's great. Not so much everything else.

Draigo got to rest before he fought Mortarion. You can't be elevated to Grand Master without ll the other incumbent Grand Masters present and, if we believe the fluff, they have tons of ceremonies and stuff you need to read and learn because SGMs of the Grey Knights have so many new toys and powers. Mortarion probably forgot to erect monuments to Nurgle so he could recharge. He probably forgot to make his FnP rolls as well.

Draigo's beaten up a Bloodthirster in fisticuffs, lol.

Any Grey Knight can do that provided he's not tired and he has enough energy left. Bloodthirsters are Khorne's babies and as I said Grey Knights OWN Chaos' ass.

 Durza wrote:
he physically confronted Angron alone, it wasn't in the same sense that Ward intended with Draigo against Mortarion.

How do you know? Of course there were other Grey Knights there. It was a battle after all. Draigo and Geronitan didn't just take a Strike Cruiser for a spin to go and confront a Daemon Primarch with no back-up.

My god void dragon you wine and claim your right on every thread it's very tiresome. You are utterly wrong about the emperor using his psychic powers to destroy the realm of chaos. Please in future read up on your fluff before posting.

 enooNaMI wrote:

By eliminating fear, superstition, religion, and magic, the Emperor meant to starve the Chaos Gods by withholding from them the sustenance they gleaned from worship, knowing and unknowing, that the minds of humanity poured into the Warp. If all he needed was his own psyker powers then he could have just went to the Eye of Chaos and kicked the Chaos Gods in the ass. Well, maybe not Nurgle and Tzeentch as Nurgle embodies life and its decay while Tzeentch embodies change which is necessary for order.

This oft-repeated theory sounds like so much nonsense to me. The Chaos Powers didn't need active worship to achieve sentience, nor to continue existing. They gain power from our actions, and violence, ambition, desire and despair are all ingrained into the human soul and there's no getting rid of it. They certainly wouldn't starve, although the Emperor's plans would likely marginalized their ability to influence the material realm (no cultists to summon them, no errant psykers to possess, and the Webway would keep warp exposure to a minimum).

 Omegus wrote:

 enooNaMI wrote:

By eliminating fear, superstition, religion, and magic, the Emperor meant to starve the Chaos Gods by withholding from them the sustenance they gleaned from worship, knowing and unknowing, that the minds of humanity poured into the Warp. If all he needed was his own psyker powers then he could have just went to the Eye of Chaos and kicked the Chaos Gods in the ass. Well, maybe not Nurgle and Tzeentch as Nurgle embodies life and its decay while Tzeentch embodies change which is necessary for order.

This oft-repeated theory sounds like so much nonsense to me. The Chaos Powers didn't need active worship to achieve sentience, nor to continue existing. They gain power from our actions, and violence, ambition, desire and despair are all ingrained into the human soul and there's no getting rid of it. They certainly wouldn't starve, although the Emperor's plans would likely marginalized their ability to influence the material realm (no cultists to summon them, no errant psykers to possess, and the Webway would keep warp exposure to a minimum).

But fanatism (40k religion) brings wars and other chaos fueling mumbo jumbo,wouldn't you agree?

That fanaticism is the only thing that allows the Imperium to endure. Emperor was simply wrong in thinking that sunshine and rainbows could keep humanity united. Lorgar was right.

 Omegus wrote:
That fanaticism is the only thing that allows the Imperium to endure. Emperor was simply wrong in thinking that sunshine and rainbows could keep humanity united. Lorgar was right.

Well I see you play the chaos card - ok, but I'm sticking to opinion that IoM in 40k is stagnating due that fantism ,which is worse then death, because it is a slow death (Angel exterminatus)...
I'm pragmatic btw - and for me deamon = creature of the warp, abomination, it can die
Imagine if 40k was full of hippies, Khorne is toast...