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 grendel083 wrote:

 Tyr Grimtooth wrote:
Nice misdirect when your FAQ "proof" got blown out of the water.

Tsk Tsk.. I feel I'm still floating happily in this case.
If you look further down the page..
You can find this little tidbit:

BRB page 5 wrote:"..if you re-roll a single 2D6 or 3D6 roll, you must.."

So the rulebook does indeed consider 2D6 to be a single roll.
So the FAQ proof is sound. The single 2D6 roll cannot be a 1.

No, I gave you defintion of what a 2d6 or a 3d6 consists of and did so verbatim. What you are doing is trying to jump through a semantical hoop to make your argument. Let me help you understand how this works,

"If you re-roll a single 2d6 or 3d6 foll, you must...' is equivalent to,

"If you re-reroll a singe 2d6 (as defined in the previous section) or a 3d6 (as defined in the previous section), you must..."

As defined, they are not a single roll. As defined they are a roll of the indicated number of dice, which are then added to come up with the result. Trying to continue to point out the "a" of a sentence as the defintion when a lengthy defintion already exists is a wasted effort.

rigeld2 wrote:
And MotW is a dice roll consisting of d6+1.

Looking at the rule again, this is actually right.
The +1 is defined as the modifier, which according to the rule modifies the dice roll itself, not simply adding to the result.
So I'll change my answer in this regard.
2D6 is still a single dice roll though


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Tyr Grimtooth wrote:

 grendel083 wrote:

 Tyr Grimtooth wrote:
Nice misdirect when your FAQ "proof" got blown out of the water.

Tsk Tsk.. I feel I'm still floating happily in this case.
If you look further down the page..
You can find this little tidbit:

BRB page 5 wrote:"..if you re-roll a single 2D6 or 3D6 roll, you must.."

So the rulebook does indeed consider 2D6 to be a single roll.
So the FAQ proof is sound. The single 2D6 roll cannot be a 1.

No, I gave you defintion of what a 2d6 or a 3d6 consists of and did so verbatim. What you are doing is trying to jump through a semantical hoop to make your argument. Let me help you understand how this works,

"If you re-roll a single 2d6 or 3d6 foll, you must...' is equivalent to,

"If you re-reroll a singe 2d6 (as defined in the previous section) or a 3d6 (as defined in the previous section), you must..."

As defined, they are not a single roll. As defined they are a roll of the indicated number of dice, which are then added to come up with the result. Trying to continue to point out the "a" of a sentence as the defintion when a lengthy defintion already exists is a wasted effort.

You have an incomplete quote.
Regardless, we are discussing re-rolls. I quoted from the rule titled "re-rolls", which according to this (very relevant) rule, considers 2D6 to be a single roll.
And that roll is incapable of being a 1.

 grendel083 wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
And MotW is a dice roll consisting of d6+1.

Looking at the rule again, this is actually right.
The +1 is defined as the modifier, which according to the rule modifies the dice roll itself, not simply adding to the result.
So I'll change my answer in this regard.
2D6 is still a single dice roll though

How is this right?

Can you quote the appropriate part of the MotW rules?

C:SW page 62 wrote:Furthermore he replaces his actual Attacks characteristic with D6+1, rolled immediately prior to when the model makes his attacks.

rigeld2 wrote:

C:SW page 62 wrote:Furthermore he replaces his actual Attacks characteristic with D6+1, rolled immediately prior to when the model makes his attacks.

I don't read that as saying that it's anything other than a modifier to the dice roll, as per page 5, merely that you roll just before each attacks rather than once?

What am I missing?

How is d6+1 not rolling a dice?
If I roll a 1 and get a result of 2 on d6+1 how is that not a roll of a 1 under the brb?

While 2d6 is clearly not the same, the rule says any roll of a 1. This is different to any d6 rolls of 1, gw are fast and loose with their use of dice, they actually never use die as that isn't the word that is used in the UK to describe a polygon with some numbers on it.

The faq is still only limited to a ld check, sometimes an faq is just limited to that question. Also that is a question that I have never understood, if I roll a 1 in a ld check why would I re-roll?

 liturgies of blood wrote:
How is d6+1 not rolling a dice?
If I roll a 1 and get a result of 2 on d6+1 how is that not a roll of a 1 under the brb?

Because you have not rolled a 1, you have rolled a 2.

 DeathReaper wrote:

 liturgies of blood wrote:
How is d6+1 not rolling a dice?
If I roll a 1 and get a result of 2 on d6+1 how is that not a roll of a 1 under the brb?

Because you have not rolled a 1, you have rolled a 2.

No. You have rolled a 1, the final result (per page 5) is 2.

I roll a d6. Do I get 2-7 on that or 1-6? That is the roll. The +1 is the modifier.

chezzie wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

C:SW page 62 wrote:Furthermore he replaces his actual Attacks characteristic with D6+1, rolled immediately prior to when the model makes his attacks.

I don't read that as saying that it's anything other than a modifier to the dice roll, as per page 5, merely that you roll just before each attacks rather than once?

What am I missing?

Exactly - it's a modifier to the die roll.
Which mean that the die doesn't roll a 1, it rolls a two. You're not rolling a die that generates 1-6 and then adding 1, you're rolling a die that generates 2-7.
You have no permission to consider the die separate from the modifier.

 DeathReaper wrote:

 liturgies of blood wrote:
How is d6+1 not rolling a dice?
If I roll a 1 and get a result of 2 on d6+1 how is that not a roll of a 1 under the brb?

Because you have not rolled a 1, you have rolled a 2.

This thread is awesome. I'm done with the discussion, but watching it continue is certainly amusing. It is very 'Who's on first?'.

= 2

The rule says it modifies the roll itself, not the result. So it would be a 2.

I roll for a d6+1, what did the dice roll when the result is a two?

Yes it says you modify the number on the dice to get the final result. That doesn't mean that the dice didn't roll a one, it means the end result isn't a one. Look at the example or the method it says to employ.

"Roll the dice and add or subtract the number given to or from the roll(as appropriate) to get the final result."

Even in this you roll a dice and modify, so that roll before you modify is a roll that can be a 1. Hence Wolf banner applies.

 pretre wrote:
This thread is awesome. I'm done with the discussion, but watching it continue is certainly amusing. It is very 'Who's on first?'.

= 2

Incorrect, 1+1 =2

 liturgies of blood wrote:
I roll for a d6+1, what did the dice roll when the result is a two?

you rolled a 2, which is the lowest result you can get on a D6+1 roll.

 grendel083 wrote:
The rule says it modifies the roll itself, not the result. So it would be a 2.

No it doesn't.

It follows page 5 of the rulebook:

Sometimes you may have to modify the number rolled on the dice ( or 'the roll'). This is noted as d6 plus or minus a number, such as D6+1. Roll the dice and add or subtract the number given to or from the roll (as appropriate) to get the final result.

I've added emphasis, but there is a clear distinction between 'a/the roll' and 'the final result'.

The standard allows you to re-roll any rolls of a 1.

I look at MoTW where it's stated as D6+1. I look at the rule from page 5... it matches the notation given for a modification using that rule. Then we see that the rule makes a distinction between 'the roll' and 'the final result'. Ergo rolling 1 on the die means that 'the roll' is 1 and 'the final result' is 2. I am allowed to re-roll the roll of 1 since that is the result of 'the roll'.

chezzie wrote:
I look at MoTW where it's stated as D6+1. I look at the rule from page 5... it matches the notation given for a modification using that rule. Then we see that the rule makes a distinction between 'the roll' and 'the final result'. Ergo rolling 1 on the die means that 'the roll' is 1 and 'the final result' is 2. I am allowed to re-roll the roll of 1 since that is the result of 'the roll'.

So the result of the roll must include the +1 (per page 5) but the result of the roll is a 1.
That's some interesting logic.

You missed the world Final from your summation and added a bunch of stuff to try to muddy the issue.

So the final result must include the +1 (per page 5) but the roll is a 1.

 DeathReaper wrote:
And the dice roll for mark of the wulfen is a 2-7, it is never 1

No, the dice roll is a 1. My dice are numbered 1-6, not 2-7. It specifically says result of the dice roll, not final result.

I'd let the Space Wolf player reroll his number of attacks because that's what the rules support.

rigeld2 wrote:

chezzie wrote:
I look at MoTW where it's stated as D6+1. I look at the rule from page 5... it matches the notation given for a modification using that rule. Then we see that the rule makes a distinction between 'the roll' and 'the final result'. Ergo rolling 1 on the die means that 'the roll' is 1 and 'the final result' is 2. I am allowed to re-roll the roll of 1 since that is the result of 'the roll'.

So the result of the roll must include the +1 (per page 5) but the result of the roll is a 1.
That's some interesting logic.

The paragraph this is in is headed Modifying Dice Rolls. We are modifying a dice roll - to get the final result. The final result is the result of the roll - after it has been modified. The number that comes up on the d6 when we roll it is the result of the pure roll. This is a component in the overall equation to get the final result of modifying a dice roll, but is not itself the final result. Please demostrate how you can equate two different terms in the rule to one?

Edit: Ninja'd by pretre

 kronk wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
And the dice roll for mark of the wulfen is a 2-7, it is never 1

No, the dice roll is a 1. My dice are numbered 1-6, not 2-7. It specifically says result of the dice roll, not final result.

I'd let the Space Wolf player reroll his number of attacks because that's what the rules support.

No, the roll is a 2-7, it is never a 1, ass it is a D6+1 which can never yield a 1.

I would love to see a D2-7. Could you make me one?

 pretre wrote:
I would love to see a D2-7. Could you make me one?

Most people flip a coin for d2, though d6/3 would also work.

DeathReaper wrote:

 kronk wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
And the dice roll for mark of the wulfen is a 2-7, it is never 1

No, the dice roll is a 1. My dice are numbered 1-6, not 2-7. It specifically says result of the dice roll, not final result.

I'd let the Space Wolf player reroll his number of attacks because that's what the rules support.

No, the roll is a 2-7, it is never a 1, ass it is a D6+1 which can never yield a 1.

Sometimes you may have to modify the number rolled on the dice ( or 'the roll'). This is noted as d6 plus or minus a number, such as D6+1. Roll the dice and add or subtract the number given to or from the roll (as appropriate) to get the final result.

Lets take this step by step. We're looking at MoTW which tells us to replace the models usual attack characteristic with d6+1. Let's look at the rule I quoted. Does the way that it's laid out for MoTW match the way that this rule tells us will be noticed? YES - it matches the example exactly.

Good - we need to apply this rule.

Now lets assume the d6 comes up as 1. We look at the rule and see what we do with it. The very first sentence tells us that the number rolled on the dice is considered the roll.

Ok - now we have the Standard whose rules state that we can re-roll any dice rolls of 1.

So we have something, that by the rule I quoted is considered "the roll" and it is 1. Can we therefore use the re-roll given to us by the standard? YES - it is a dice roll and it is 1.

We re-roll the dice and then use that number as 'the roll' for the purposes of the rest of the rule which details how to apply the modifier to get the final result, which is what we use in whatever manner the original situation requires, in this case replacing the models usual attacks characteristic.

Please demonstrate the flaw in what I've posted above, it is a set of logical steps that follows the wording of the rule.

 Happyjew wrote:

 pretre wrote:
I would love to see a D2-7. Could you make me one?

Most people flip a coin for d2, though d6/3 would also work.

No, not a D2. I want a D7 that only has numbers from 2 to 7 on it.

chezzie wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

chezzie wrote:
I look at MoTW where it's stated as D6+1. I look at the rule from page 5... it matches the notation given for a modification using that rule. Then we see that the rule makes a distinction between 'the roll' and 'the final result'. Ergo rolling 1 on the die means that 'the roll' is 1 and 'the final result' is 2. I am allowed to re-roll the roll of 1 since that is the result of 'the roll'.

So the result of the roll must include the +1 (per page 5) but the result of the roll is a 1.
That's some interesting logic.

The paragraph this is in is headed Modifying Dice Rolls. We are modifying a dice roll - to get the final result. The final result is the result of the roll - after it has been modified. The number that comes up on the d6 when we roll it is the result of the pure roll. This is a component in the overall equation to get the final result of modifying a dice roll, but is not itself the final result. Please demostrate how you can equate two different terms in the rule to one?

Edit: Ninja'd by pretre

We know that, per page 5, a modified dice roll is still a roll. The Banner says that you can re-roll a dice roll of a 1.
Rolling a 1 on the die is not a dice roll - you have to modify it. You don't have permission to jump in the middle and check what you rolled before applying the modifier.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 pretre wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:

 pretre wrote:
I would love to see a D2-7. Could you make me one?

Most people flip a coin for d2, though d6/3 would also work.

No, not a D2. I want a D7 that only has numbers from 2 to 7 on it.

That's easy - gimme a marker and a d6.

 DeathReaper wrote:

 kronk wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
And the dice roll for mark of the wulfen is a 2-7, it is never 1

No, the dice roll is a 1. My dice are numbered 1-6, not 2-7. It specifically says result of the dice roll, not final result.

I'd let the Space Wolf player reroll his number of attacks because that's what the rules support.

No, the roll is a 2-7, it is never a 1, ass it is a D6+1 which can never yield a 1.

The rules on page 5 do not agree with you. The modifier creates the final result but the wolf standard doesn't deal with final results it deals with rolls.

chezzie wrote:

DeathReaper wrote:

 kronk wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
And the dice roll for mark of the wulfen is a 2-7, it is never 1

No, the dice roll is a 1. My dice are numbered 1-6, not 2-7. It specifically says result of the dice roll, not final result.

I'd let the Space Wolf player reroll his number of attacks because that's what the rules support.

No, the roll is a 2-7, it is never a 1, ass it is a D6+1 which can never yield a 1.

Sometimes you may have to modify the number rolled on the dice ( or 'the roll'). This is noted as d6 plus or minus a number, such as D6+1. Roll the dice and add or subtract the number given to or from the roll (as appropriate) to get the final result.

Lets take this step by step. We're looking at MoTW which tells us to replace the models usual attack characteristic with d6+1. Let's look at the rule I quoted. Does the way that it's laid out for MoTW match the way that this rule tells us will be noticed? YES - it matches the example exactly.

Good - we need to apply this rule.

Now lets assume the d6 comes up as 1. We look at the rule and see what we do with it. The very first sentence tells us that the number rolled on the dice is considered the roll.

Ok - now we have the Standard whose rules state that we can re-roll any dice rolls of 1.

So we have something, that by the rule I quoted is considered "the roll" and it is 1. Can we therefore use the re-roll given to us by the standard? YES - it is a dice roll and it is 1.

We re-roll the dice and then use that number as 'the roll' for the purposes of the rest of the rule which details how to apply the modifier to get the final result, which is what we use in whatever manner the original situation requires, in this case replacing the models usual attacks characteristic.

Please demonstrate the flaw in what I've posted above, it is a set of logical steps that follows the wording of the rule.

You do realize you've just asserted that the number realized after adding the modifier is not a dice roll, right?

rigeld2 wrote:

We know that, per page 5, a modified dice roll is still a roll. The Banner says that you can re-roll a dice roll of a 1.
Rolling a 1 on the die is not a dice roll - you have to modify it. You don't have permission to jump in the middle and check what you rolled before applying the modifier.

No. Modifying the dice roll gives us a result. Where does it state that it is still a roll? It is a modification of a roll, yielding a result. Please respond to the post where I laid out the steps.

The number you get after adding the modifier is not the dice roll it is the modified dice roll as per the rules.

chezzie wrote:

DeathReaper wrote:

 kronk wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
And the dice roll for mark of the wulfen is a 2-7, it is never 1

No, the dice roll is a 1. My dice are numbered 1-6, not 2-7. It specifically says result of the dice roll, not final result.

I'd let the Space Wolf player reroll his number of attacks because that's what the rules support.

No, the roll is a 2-7, it is never a 1, ass it is a D6+1 which can never yield a 1.

Sometimes you may have to modify the number rolled on the dice ( or 'the roll'). This is noted as d6 plus or minus a number, such as D6+1. Roll the dice and add or subtract the number given to or from the roll (as appropriate) to get the final result.

Lets take this step by step. We're looking at MoTW which tells us to replace the models usual attack characteristic with d6+1. Let's look at the rule I quoted. Does the way that it's laid out for MoTW match the way that this rule tells us will be noticed? YES - it matches the example exactly.

Good - we need to apply this rule.

Now lets assume the d6 comes up as 1. We look at the rule and see what we do with it. The very first sentence tells us that the number rolled on the dice is considered the roll.

Ok - now we have the Standard whose rules state that we can re-roll any dice rolls of 1.

So we have something, that by the rule I quoted is considered "the roll" and it is 1. Can we therefore use the re-roll given to us by the standard? YES - it is a dice roll and it is 1.

We re-roll the dice and then use that number as 'the roll' for the purposes of the rest of the rule which details how to apply the modifier to get the final result, which is what we use in whatever manner the original situation requires, in this case replacing the models usual attacks characteristic.

Please demonstrate the flaw in what I've posted above, it is a set of logical steps that follows the wording of the rule.

A great breakdown of the rules.

DR, instead of just repeating an unfounded statement over and over, how about breaking your process down as above using the RAW?

rigeld2 wrote:

You do realize you've just asserted that the number realized after adding the modifier is not a dice roll, right?

Yes, because it isn't a dice roll at that point. It is the result of taking a dice roll and modifying it. This seems to be the part that you're missing. At no point does it mention that it is still a dice roll.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Tyr Grimtooth wrote:

A great breakdown of the rules.

DR, instead of just repeating an unfounded statement over and over, how about breaking your process down as above using the RAW?

Thank you. If there is a flaw in the logic I would love to see it, but I can't see where I'm breaking the rules to get to my conclusion.