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chezzie wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

You do realize you've just asserted that the number realized after adding the modifier is not a dice roll, right?

Yes, because it isn't a dice roll at that point. It is the result of taking a dice roll and modifying it. This seems to be the part that you're missing. At no point does it mention that it is still a dice roll.

... Which means it's useless. We aren't asked to look at a result of a dice roll, we're asked to look at a dice roll.
The (d6+1) is a dice roll.

MotW doesn't ask you to look for a dice roll.

"Furthermore he replaces his actual Attacks characteristic with D6+1, rolled immediately prior to when the model makes his attacks."

It asks you to replace it with the result of D6 (the roll) +1 (the modifier). Nowhere in the MotW does it define D6+1 as 'the roll'.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Either way, we're way in the weeds at this point.

rigeld2 wrote:

chezzie wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

You do realize you've just asserted that the number realized after adding the modifier is not a dice roll, right?

Yes, because it isn't a dice roll at that point. It is the result of taking a dice roll and modifying it. This seems to be the part that you're missing. At no point does it mention that it is still a dice roll.

... Which means it's useless. We aren't asked to look at a result of a dice roll, we're asked to look at a dice roll.
The (d6+1) is a dice roll.

No, please read the rule I have posted. the d6 is the dice roll. By adding +1 to it we get to the final result which is what we need.

I'm struggling to see how else to explain this.

If I roll a D6 what possible rolls does that give us?

I hope you agree that it gives us 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6

Now go through the steps I posted by deconstructing the rule on p5 and see how it works.

Are you saying that if I DID have a die with numbers 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7 on then I WOULDN'T be allowed, but if I rolled a normal die then added 1 I would? This is a great example of a terribly written rule. I would be of the train of thought that it is the FINAL result that constitutes the roll rather than the initial, pre-modifier roll as otherwise you hit problems like I just said.

Though if we're being as strict RAW as we are for other rules, it only works when you have multiple rolls of 1, due to the use of "dice" not "die" - dice is strictly plural.

I don't think we're going to reach a de facto agreement and RAW is way too unclear. Best to ask your opponent before a game. Yes, that really is the best I can do here.

Eyjio wrote:
Are you saying that if I DID have a die with numbers 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7 on then I WOULDN'T be allowed, but if I rolled a normal die then added 1 I would? This is a great example of a terribly written rule. I would be of the train of thought that it is the FINAL result that constitutes the roll rather than the initial, pre-modifier roll as otherwise you hit problems like I just said.

Though if we're being as strict RAW as we are for other rules, it only works when you have multiple rolls of 1, due to the use of "dice" not "die" - dice is strictly plural.

I don't think we're going to reach a de facto agreement and RAW is way too unclear. Best to ask your opponent before a game. Yes, that really is the best I can do here.

Sadly this dice/die distinction fails since the rule specifies dice when referring to an example of one D6.

OK, just so I'm sure, we are (mostly) in agreement that you cannot re-roll 2D6, 3D6, etc. Now we are arguing if a modified roll can be affected?

I actually have to agree with chezzie that you can re-roll the D6 based on the Autarch, specifically Master Strategist: you may choose to add 1 to your reserve rolls (a roll of 1 always counts as a failure). The rule allows you to roll D6+1 for reserves. if we follow the logic that only the final result matters, you would never roll a 1. Of course with reserve rolls being slightly different in 6th ed, rolling a 1 and adding 1 still fails but that is beside the point.

 Tyr Grimtooth wrote:
A great breakdown of the rules.

DR, instead of just repeating an unfounded statement over and over, how about breaking your process down as above using the RAW?

"Sometimes, you may have to modify the number rolled on the dice (or the roll)" P.5

Do you need to modify the roll? (Yes).

What is the roll of a D6+1, assuming a 1 on the die? (2)

Does the Wolf standard allow you to re-roll 2's? (No).

 Happyjew wrote:
OK, just so I'm sure, we are (mostly) in agreement that you cannot re-roll 2D6, 3D6, etc. Now we are arguing if a modified roll can be affected?

I actually have to agree with chezzie that you can re-roll the D6 based on the Autarch, specifically Master Strategist: you may choose to add 1 to your reserve rolls (a roll of 1 always counts as a failure). The rule allows you to roll D6+1 for reserves. if we follow the logic that only the final result matters, you would never roll a 1. Of course with reserve rolls being slightly different in 6th ed, rolling a 1 and adding 1 still fails but that is beside the point.

Yes I certainly agree that the wolf standard doesn't let you re roll a 2d6 or 3d6 roll.

From later in the paragraph I quoted earlier

You may also be told to roll a number of dice in one go, which is written as 2D6, 3D6 and so on. Roll the indicated number of dice and add them together, so a 2d6 roll is two dice added together for a result of 2-12.

Here we see what GW define as a 2d6 roll and that is a number between 2-12. This means we cannot use the re-roll since a result of 1 from a 2d6 roll is impossible.

 DeathReaper wrote:

 Tyr Grimtooth wrote:
A great breakdown of the rules.

DR, instead of just repeating an unfounded statement over and over, how about breaking your process down as above using the RAW?

"Sometimes, you may have to modify the number rolled on the dice (or the roll)" P.5

Do you need to modify the roll? (Yes).

What is the roll of a D6+1, assuming a 1 on the die? (2)

Does the Wolf standard allow you to re-roll 2's? (No).

Can you give a reasonable explanation on the Autarch example I gave, as to why they would include that a roll of 1 is always a failure (i'm ccertain it is not redundancy).

 DeathReaper wrote:

 Tyr Grimtooth wrote:
A great breakdown of the rules.

DR, instead of just repeating an unfounded statement over and over, how about breaking your process down as above using the RAW?

"Sometimes, you may have to modify the number rolled on the dice (or the roll)" P.5

Do you need to modify the roll? (Yes).

What is the roll of a D6+1, assuming a 1 on the die? (2)

Does the Wolf standard allow you to re-roll 2's? (No).

The issue is is that the roll is simply defined as the number rolled on the dice. The result of modifying that roll - the final result per the rule - is d6+1. The only point where the roll is defined in this rule ( with regards to 1 dice) is the number rolled on the dice, the D6 + 1 is the final result... not the dice roll

Sometimes you may have to modify the number rolled on the dice ( or 'the roll').

It's right there. The roll is modified. Not the result.
So D6+1 is a roll. It's a modified roll certainly, but still the roll.

So look at it this way, sometimes you have to modify X.
If X is a 1 then your redo X.
For this models attacks you roll X+1.

That is how I read it. The +1 is the modifier but it is not the dice roll as the rules tell you to Roll the dice, apply the modifier and then get the result. Not that it is the roll.

 grendel083 wrote:

Sometimes you may have to modify the number rolled on the dice ( or 'the roll').

It's right there. The roll is modified. Not the result.
So D6+1 is a roll. It's a modified roll certainly, but still the roll.

This is simpler than the explanation I was going to post, so I will 100% agree with this post instead of posting my, rather long winded, explanation in favor of this simpler, yet accurate, explanation.

So then an Eldar army with 2 Autarchs will always be able to get any unit in Reserves in on Turn 2. Good to know.

Do Autarchs stack? I know Lictors don't with themselves and neither do Hive Commanders.

You guys have latched onto one sentence in that paragraph, read the process of modification.
The +1 is the modifier the d6 is the roll. That is all it is.

rigeld2 wrote:
Do Autarchs stack? I know Lictors don't with themselves and neither do Hive Commanders.

Q. If an army has two Autarchs, does it get +2 to its Reserve rolls?
(p29)
A. The player may choose each turn whether to add +1, +2 or
no bonus to his reserve rolls.

Sweet. Auto reserves it is. ( stupid GW hating on Nids )

rigeld2 wrote:
Sweet. Auto reserves it is. ( stupid GW hating on Nids )

However a roll of 1 (on D6+2 with double Autarchs) is an auto-fail.

 DeathReaper wrote:

 kronk wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
And the dice roll for mark of the wulfen is a 2-7, it is never 1

No, the dice roll is a 1. My dice are numbered 1-6, not 2-7. It specifically says result of the dice roll, not final result.

I'd let the Space Wolf player reroll his number of attacks because that's what the rules support.

No, the roll is a 2-7, it is never a 1, ass it is a D6+1 which can never yield a 1.

If you want to house rule it, sure.

But using RAW, the die is a 1, so you can reroll it per the Wolf Standard.

 kronk wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

 kronk wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
And the dice roll for mark of the wulfen is a 2-7, it is never 1

No, the dice roll is a 1. My dice are numbered 1-6, not 2-7. It specifically says result of the dice roll, not final result.

I'd let the Space Wolf player reroll his number of attacks because that's what the rules support.

No, the roll is a 2-7, it is never a 1, ass it is a D6+1 which can never yield a 1.

If you want to house rule it, sure.

But using RAW, the die is a 1, so you can reroll it per the Wolf Standard.

Not what RAW says.
The roll is a D6+1, it doesn't say re-roll unmodified rolls of 1. Or Rolls before modification.
The rule says it's the dice roll that is modified, not the result of a dice roll.

 grendel083 wrote:

 kronk wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

 kronk wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
And the dice roll for mark of the wulfen is a 2-7, it is never 1

No, the dice roll is a 1. My dice are numbered 1-6, not 2-7. It specifically says result of the dice roll, not final result.

I'd let the Space Wolf player reroll his number of attacks because that's what the rules support.

No, the roll is a 2-7, it is never a 1, ass it is a D6+1 which can never yield a 1.

If you want to house rule it, sure.

But using RAW, the die is a 1, so you can reroll it per the Wolf Standard.

Not what RAW says.
The roll is a D6+1, it doesn't say re-roll unmodified rolls of 1. Or Rolls before modification.
The rule says it's the dice roll that is modified, not the result of a dice roll.

The rule book says the dice roll is modified but at no point does it call the modified outcome a roll, it calls it the final result.

The rules say to re-roll "any dice roll of a 1"

The roll of a 2 is not the roll of a 1, since the dice roll is modified it is no longer a 1.

 DeathReaper wrote:
The rules say to re-roll "any dice roll of a 1"

The roll of a 2 is not the roll of a 1, since the dice roll is modified it is no longer a 1.

When do you add the modifier?

You roll it, it's a 1. No matter what you try and say, that die is a 1. You add 1 to it and the result is 2, but that die is 1.

We are not told any unmodified rolls of a 1 are re-rolled, so you must add in the modifier to comply with the rules.

Permissive ruleset wins here.

 DeathReaper wrote:
We are not told any unmodified rolls of a 1 are re-rolled, so you must add in the modifier to comply with the rules.

Permissive ruleset wins here.

You are not told in the rules that a d6+2 is a roll. Permissive ruleset for the win.
The rules say make a roll then add the modifiers to get a total not a roll.
The wolf standard says roll of a one not total of a 1.

 DeathReaper wrote:
We are not told any unmodified rolls of a 1 are re-rolled, so you must add in the modifier to comply with the rules.

Permissive ruleset wins here.

Roll a die(D6), what is it it's a 1-6.

The total is the die roll. you roll the die to figure out how many attacks for the guy with the Mark.

You roll a 2, then you can not re-roll because that is not a 1.

You are not permitted to count just the number on the die, as the roll has a modifier.

Permissive ruleset tells us this is true.

 DeathReaper wrote:
The total is the die roll. you roll the die to figure out how many attacks for the guy with the Mark.

You roll a 2, then you can not re-roll because that is not a 1.

You are not permitted to count just the number on the die, as the roll has a modifier.

Permissive ruleset tells us this is true.

The roll of a die would not add in a modifier. The result is modified, not the roll.
The rules say make a roll then add the modifiers to get a total not a roll.
The wolf standard says roll of a one not total of a 1.

Otherwise with your logic a roll of 1 would always wound because its 1+(str) so it would never be a roll of 1

 DeathReaper wrote:


You are not permitted to count just the number on the die, as the roll has a modifier.

Permissive ruleset tells us this is true.

Where? Cos if you can't count the number how do you apply the modifier? Schrodinger's dice?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 DeathReaper wrote:

The total is the die roll.

This is actually just wrong.