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 liturgies of blood wrote:
What is a natural roll on 2D6?
It is what you get when you add two dice together. ie When you get the modified result.

We know that's false - the reserve rules specifically note to not apply the modifier for the roll, so we do not look at the modified result on a natural roll.

What is the natural roll on D6+1?
It's what you roll on the dice before the modifier. ie What you have before you get the modified result.

How is a natural roll after modifiers in one scenario, and after the modifiers in another? What rules support do you have for that?

According to GW 2D6 is a modified roll, so in your world natural rolls must equal the results of modified rolls, but this isn't the case as reserves roll tells us so.

Actually no - I haven't said that. I've said that natural roll most equal roll.

This is why a natural roll =/= every roll, hence as per page 5 result =/= roll, hence re-roll any dice roll of a 1 applies to modified dice rolls of 1D6+x but not to YD6 as you must have specific permission to re-roll YD6 as per page 5.

Please cite rules support for applying natural to before modifiers sometimes and after in integer cases.

Here is a definition for a natural roll.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Role-playing_game_terms#N

Search natural here it's the first hit.
http://www.travellersrd.com/content/official/mongoose_traveller_srd/careers.html

The FACT that a natural roll is inconsistent with what GW calls a modified roll is what I am trying to show you.
So games call rolling 2D6 and adding together the natural roll, this is a modified roll according to GW.

 liturgies of blood wrote:
Here is a definition for a natural roll.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Role-playing_game_terms#N

Search natural here it's the first hit.
http://www.travellersrd.com/content/official/mongoose_traveller_srd/careers.html

The FACT that a natural roll is inconsistent with what GW calls a modified roll is what I am trying to show you.
So games call rolling 2D6 and adding together the natural roll, this is a modified roll according to GW.

Right, so your assertion that 2d6 and adding together is a natural roll is, by GW terms, incorrect. Yes?

rigeld2 wrote:

 liturgies of blood wrote:
What is a natural roll on 2D6?
It is what you get when you add two dice together. ie When you get the modified result.

We know that's false - the reserve rules specifically note to not apply the modifier for the roll, so we do not look at the modified result on a natural roll.

That's what I was pointing out, look at page 5 2D6 is a modified roll, look at the traveller game link where natural rolls are defined. The result of adding the two dice on 2d6 before any other modifiers is the natural roll.

GW never defined a natural roll. They just say that it is regardless of modifiers.

What is the natural roll on D6+1?
It's what you roll on the dice before the modifier. ie What you have before you get the modified result.

How is a natural roll after modifiers in one scenario, and after the modifiers in another? What rules support do you have for that?

The reserves roll tells us that "regardless of modifiers a natural roll of 1....." so the modifiers are ignored when deciding the natural roll. Going with the definition from the wiki. That is consistant with the GAMING CONVENTION of what natural rolls are. This works fine within GW rules for this example

This is why a natural roll =/= every roll, hence as per page 5 result =/= roll, hence re-roll any dice roll of a 1 applies to modified dice rolls of 1D6+x but not to YD6 as you must have specific permission to re-roll YD6 as per page 5.

Please cite rules support for applying natural to before modifiers sometimes and after in integer cases.

A natural roll, in 40k, is defined as D6.

"Almost all the dice rolls in Warhammer 40,000 use standard six-sided dice, also known as D6, but there are some exceptions as noted below." P.5

Therefore D6 is a Roll. 2D6 is a modified roll as noted on the same page.

 DeathReaper wrote:
A natural roll, in 40k, is defined as D6.

"Almost all the dice rolls in Warhammer 40,000 use standard six-sided dice, also known as D6, but there are some exceptions as noted below." P.5

Therefore D6 is a Roll. 2D6 is a modified roll as noted on the same page.

That is a very big reach. Nowhere is a natural roll defined, it is inferred at best. Yes a D6 is a roll, 2d6 is also called a roll. D6+2 is called a roll.
In the modified dice section it uses roll to refer to the act. So when you roll a d6 and it comes up 1, that is a dice roll of a 1.
So what stops the wolf banner applying to mark of the wolfen?

rigeld2 wrote:
roll = A
modifier = B
result = C
natural roll = D

(A = D) + B = C
Agree or disagree?

I'd agree with this. This is directly evidenced in the passages that I've transcribed below, and again posted.

azazel the cat wrote:*sigh*

MODIFYING DICE ROLLS (BRB, p. 5)
Sometimes, you may have to modify the number rolled on the dice (or 'on the roll'). This is noted as D6 plus or minus a number, such as D6+1. Roll the dice and add or subtract the number given to or from the roll (as appropriate) to get the final result. For example, D6+2 means roll a dice and add 2 to the number on the dice for a total between 3 and 8. You may also be told to roll a number of dice... etc.

WOLF STANDARD (SW Codex, p. 62)
...For the duration of the next Assault Phase, all models in that unit may re-roll any dice rolls of a 1.


Please pay attention to the wording of the Modifying Dice Rolls section. It clearly defines and demonstrates the difference between the "roll" and the "final result": the roll is prior to the modifier, whereas the final result is after the modifier.

Now look at the wording of the Wolf Standard. it states that a unit may re-roll any dice rolls of a 1. It says rolls. It does NOT say "results of a 1".

Because the Wolf Standard allows the player to re-roll the ROLLS of a 1 (as opposed to the RESULT of a 1), the player definitely CAN use the Wolf Standard on Mark of the Wulfen.

There. Done. This discussion should be over now.

It's been shown that GW uses the word "natural" or "unmodified" when they mean "don't add the modifier".

Does the wolf standard say "unmodified" or "natural"?

rigeld2 wrote:
It's been shown that GW uses the word "natural" or "unmodified" when they mean "don't add the modifier".

Does the wolf standard say "unmodified" or "natural"?

does it say the modified, or result?

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
It's been shown that GW uses the word "natural" or "unmodified" when they mean "don't add the modifier".

Does the wolf standard say "unmodified" or "natural"?

does it say the modified, or result?

No. It doesn't need to. Unmodified or natural is the exception, not the rule.

rigeld2 wrote:

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
It's been shown that GW uses the word "natural" or "unmodified" when they mean "don't add the modifier".

Does the wolf standard say "unmodified" or "natural"?

does it say the modified, or result?

No. It doesn't need to. Unmodified or natural is the exception, not the rule.

a dice roll is a roll. Being modified would be a result.

rigeld2 wrote:
It's been shown that GW uses the word "natural" or "unmodified" when they mean "don't add the modifier".

Does the wolf standard say "unmodified" or "natural"?

Where do they ask for unmodified dice rolls? I know they use that term for toughness etc, but unmodified dice isn't one that springs to mind.
If you are using an apples to apples type argument on their wording conventions, since modified is used on both dice and stats, where is a characteristic referred to as the natural strength or initiative?

Also where is natural defined in the brb? Actually, where is it used other than in fluff or in the reserves roll section?

rigeld2 wrote:

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
It's been shown that GW uses the word "natural" or "unmodified" when they mean "don't add the modifier".

Does the wolf standard say "unmodified" or "natural"?

does it say the modified, or result?

No. It doesn't need to. Unmodified or natural is the exception, not the rule.

I want you to step back and think about the cognitive dissonance of what you just said.

Anyway, I've already cited the passage from p.5 that directly states a difference between a "roll" and a "result". The Wolf Standard affects the "roll", which occurs prior to the modifier, as per p.5

It's pretty clear that since you are just pretending my argument doesn't exist, that you are just plodding along because you don't want to be wrong, rather than a true belief.

 azazel the cat wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
It's been shown that GW uses the word "natural" or "unmodified" when they mean "don't add the modifier".

Does the wolf standard say "unmodified" or "natural"?

does it say the modified, or result?

No. It doesn't need to. Unmodified or natural is the exception, not the rule.

I want you to step back and think about the cognitive dissonance of what you just said.

No, really - as far as 40k rules are concerned, it's true.

Anyway, I've already cited the passage from p.5 that directly states a difference between a "roll" and a "result". The Wolf Standard affects the "roll", which occurs prior to the modifier, as per p.5

Outside of page 5, show me one place - just one - where the distinction is made between a roll and a result.
In general, all references to "roll" are including modifiers. There are exceptions - and they make themselves clear.

It's pretty clear that since you are just pretending my argument doesn't exist, that you are just plodding along because you don't want to be wrong, rather than a true belief.

I'm doing nothing of the sort - but please keep insulting my integrity. It pleases me.

Looking for unmodified in the case of characteristic checks is definitely the exception.

Rigeld could you provide some(or anything bar the natural roll for reserves) example of where they look for unmodified dice rolls or unmodified results?
I think in the case of dice, unless I have missed something, that the result is the general thing to go by when they ask for rolls.
A roll of a 3+ for example is a result of 3 or more.

A dice roll of a 1 does look to point to the unmodified result from my perspective, since the modified rolls section distinguishes roll and result.

I think the "modified or unmodified" is the only question here, I think anything else is a stretch to justify a position.

 liturgies of blood wrote:
That is a very big reach. Nowhere is a natural roll defined, it is inferred at best.

They do not define 'Add' either.
Where things are undefined we use the English definition, such is the case with 'Add' and 'Natural Roll'.

 liturgies of blood wrote:
Yes a D6 is a roll,

I agree.

 liturgies of blood wrote:
2d6 is also called a roll. D6+2 is called a roll.

Actually these are under the section about modifying dice rolls, so they are modified rolls, as D6 is 'a roll'.

 liturgies of blood wrote:
In the modified dice section it uses roll to refer to the act. So when you roll a d6 and it comes up 1, that is a Natural dice roll of a 1.

I agree, but with the caveat's I added in orange.

 liturgies of blood wrote:
So what stops the wolf banner applying to mark of the wolfen?

The fact that you can not roll a 1 when rolling for Mark of the wolfen.

The wolf banner does not say re-roll Natural Rolls of a 1, and instead says rolls of a 1. And you can not roll a 1 when you are rolling a D6+1, the least you can roll is a 2. you can have a Natural roll of a 1, but that is not what the wolf banner lets you re-roll.

 DeathReaper wrote:


The wolf banner does not say re-roll Natural Rolls of a 1, and instead says rolls of a 1. And you can not roll a 1 when you are rolling a D6+1, the least you can roll is a 2. you can have a Natural roll of a 1, but that is not what the wolf banner lets you re-roll.

So are you telling me that the roll a D6 is different than the natural roll of a D6?

I see no proof of this.
There is no difference between a roll of a D6 and the Natural roll of a D6.
If you have to add,subtract,replace,etc, it would be modified and have a result.

D6 is a roll
D6(mod) is a result.

That's nice but where does GW use natural rolls as a convention?
One overly specific example is not a general rule.

@DR
So if GW didn't define a natural roll we go with what EVERYONE uses a natural roll to be.
That breaks down with modified rolls straight away. Follow rigeld's argument at least it has backing in GW rules. Without leaps of logic.

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:


The wolf banner does not say re-roll Natural Rolls of a 1, and instead says rolls of a 1. And you can not roll a 1 when you are rolling a D6+1, the least you can roll is a 2. you can have a Natural roll of a 1, but that is not what the wolf banner lets you re-roll.

So are you telling me that the roll a D6 is different than the natural roll of a D6?

No, but there is a difference between a roll of a D6 and a roll of a D6+1

 liturgies of blood wrote:
That breaks down with modified rolls straight away. Follow rigeld's argument at least it has backing in GW rules. Without leaps of logic.

How does it break down?

The normal definition for natural roll is the number on the die. A D6+1 roll comes up a 2 when the 'Natural roll' is a 1 then you add the modifier of 1 to get the roll.

 DeathReaper wrote:

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:


The wolf banner does not say re-roll Natural Rolls of a 1, and instead says rolls of a 1. And you can not roll a 1 when you are rolling a D6+1, the least you can roll is a 2. you can have a Natural roll of a 1, but that is not what the wolf banner lets you re-roll.

So are you telling me that the roll a D6 is different than the natural roll of a D6?

No, but there is a difference between a roll a D6 and roll a D6+1

Yea, one is a Die roll, the other will be a die roll plus a modifier.

D6='s Dice roll
vs
D6(diceroll)(mod)='s result

No, one is a die roll, as noted on P. 5

The other is a modified die roll. as noted on P. 5

 DeathReaper wrote:


The other is a modified die roll. as noted on P. 5

No the other is a result of a 2 not a roll of a 2.

whoops, tried to quick post to amend.

A modified dice roll is a roll that has been modified, so you rolled and modified to get the result.

 DeathReaper wrote:
No, one is a die roll, as noted on P. 5

The other is a modified die roll. as noted on P. 5

Does MoTW ask for the Die roll or the Mod Die roll?

Also DR we did this 7 pages ago, can you either stop or bring something new?

Really this says it all:

rigeld2 wrote:
It's been shown that GW uses the word "natural" or "unmodified" when they mean "don't add the modifier".

Does the wolf standard say "unmodified" or "natural"?

Since the wolf standard does not say "unmodified" or "natural" they mean the result.

The result of a D6+1 can never be a 1

I was going to say something like this, but azazel the cat hit it on the head.

 azazel the cat wrote:
There. Done. This discussion should be over now.

 DeathReaper wrote:
Really this says it all:

rigeld2 wrote:
It's been shown that GW uses the word "natural" or "unmodified" when they mean "don't add the modifier".

Does the wolf standard say "unmodified" or "natural"?

Since the wolf standard does not say "unmodified" or "natural" they mean the result.

The result of a D6+1 can never be a 1

I don't see any support for such a theory. Nothing written to back it up.

However I can see where it's written that that's a modified result.

MoTW says Dice roll, not modified dice roll

Looking for something like how they clarify the use of "turn"

Unmodified is convention for characteristics tests, I would like one example of an unmodified roll being called for?
That is not an unmodified characteristic test where there was never any modifier on the d6.

Natural is not a convention within the rules it is mentioned once in the book in a paragraph to show clearly the difference between the roll and the result.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Natural rolls include rolls of 2D6, D6, D8 etc.
It is the value on the dice as they sit, unmodified.
This doesn't work with GW's rules, to say that it is anything else is a break with convention and would need a citation from the brb.

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:
I don't see any support for such a theory. Nothing written to back it up.

You mean this theory?

rigeld2 wrote:
It's been shown that GW uses the word "natural" or "unmodified" when they mean "don't add the modifier".

How about P.124 reserve rules.

"Regardless of the modifier(s), a natural roll of a 1 always means that the unit in question remains in reserve."

There is your example liturgies of blood.

 liturgies of blood wrote:
Unmodified is convention for characteristics tests, I would like one example of an unmodified roll being called for?