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From what I've heard the stuff from the heresy book would wipe the floor with a "modern" army. Of course we'd have to playtest it to find out so initially I don't think I'd have a problem with it.

Nope. It was weird going "You've got how many plasma blasts in 1 unit?" but they only managed to kill a chimera after 4 rounds of shooting at it.

keisukekun wrote:
From what I've heard the stuff from the heresy book would wipe the floor with a "modern" army. Of course we'd have to playtest it to find out so initially I don't think I'd have a problem with it.

The army is largely normal marines, minus ATSKNF. There is almost zero flexibility in any of the squads (outside of their version of sternguard) and each unit has a very specific role. Everything seems slightly over priced as well.

If you ignore the super heavies, primarchs and don't take vehicles in squadrons, then I'd even go so far as to say that it's on par or worse then the vanilla marine codex.

That is, until you find the 1 or 2 tricks/exploits in the list, that are really well hidden actually, and you break the game with them.

 Carnage43 wrote:

keisukekun wrote:
From what I've heard the stuff from the heresy book would wipe the floor with a "modern" army. Of course we'd have to playtest it to find out so initially I don't think I'd have a problem with it.

The army is largely normal marines, minus ATSKNF. There is almost zero flexibility in any of the squads (outside of their version of sternguard) and each unit has a very specific role. Everything seems slightly over priced as well.

If you ignore the super heavies, primarchs and don't take vehicles in squadrons, then I'd even go so far as to say that it's on par or worse then the vanilla marine codex.

That is, until you find the 1 or 2 tricks/exploits in the list, that are really well hidden actually, and you break the game with them.

I dunno, outside of Space Wolf and Grey Knight terminators they offer the most flexibility for their terminators. How does a full 10 man terminator squad with combi weapons and power axes sound?

valace2 wrote:I realize that a preheresy army could never be played in a tournament,...

Why not?

Kaldor wrote:It clashes. I play Warhammer Forty Thousand. Not Warhammer Thirty Thousand.

The name of the game has very little bearing on the point in the timeline in which your battles take place.

At least half of the special characters in the game since 2nd edition have been dead in the 'current' time of the game setting.

 insaniak wrote:

valace2 wrote:I realize that a preheresy army could never be played in a tournament,...

Why not?

Given the difficulty in getting TOs to follow the rules and allow FW units/lists that are explicitly stated to be part of standard 40k I seriously doubt you're going to be able to convince anyone to let you use an army list that is explicitly NOT supposed to be part of normal 40k.

There are tournaments out there that allow Forgeworld stuff. It's not as simple as 'It's Forgeworld, so it'll never be allowed in a tournament'...

 insaniak wrote:
There are tournaments out there that allow Forgeworld stuff. It's not as simple as 'It's Forgeworld, so it'll never be allowed in a tournament'...

I know that, and I've argued very strongly that ALL tournaments should allow FW because that's what the rules of 40k say. My point is that, despite having an explicit statement from GW that FW "40k approved" rules are part of the standard game, many TOs still resist allowing them. And when they refuse to allow things that are part of the game I wouldn't expect them to suddenly have a more favorable opinion of rules where GW has explicitly said "these are not part of standard 40k and are not meant to be used outside of special Heresy vs. Heresy games".

In short: FW haters won't allow Heresy stuff because it's not a codex, and people who say "play by the rules as given by GW" won't allow Heresy stuff because GW says it's not part of 40k. The only realistic way you're going to use Heresy rules in a tournament is if you find some kind of special Heresy-themed event.

valace2 wrote:

 Carnage43 wrote:

keisukekun wrote:
From what I've heard the stuff from the heresy book would wipe the floor with a "modern" army. Of course we'd have to playtest it to find out so initially I don't think I'd have a problem with it.

The army is largely normal marines, minus ATSKNF. There is almost zero flexibility in any of the squads (outside of their version of sternguard) and each unit has a very specific role. Everything seems slightly over priced as well.

If you ignore the super heavies, primarchs and don't take vehicles in squadrons, then I'd even go so far as to say that it's on par or worse then the vanilla marine codex.

That is, until you find the 1 or 2 tricks/exploits in the list, that are really well hidden actually, and you break the game with them.

I dunno, outside of Space Wolf and Grey Knight terminators they offer the most flexibility for their terminators. How does a full 10 man terminator squad with combi weapons and power axes sound?

Sounds like chaos terminators to me....minus the ability to take marks and having less LD. Catapharataii terminator squads with power axes are one of the few shining units in the list and only because they are scoring and a melee unit in an army with little melee and scoring ability.

Moritat commanders with twin plasma pistols, artificier armor and a jetpack under the influence of prescience is a "broken" unit. Nothing like averaging 72 plasma pistol hits a turn for ~250 points.
Catapharactii terminator character joining a devastator squad is on the list of "broken" as well. He confers the ability to move and fire all of your heavy weapons at full BS thanks to slow and purposeful. Nothing like a 10 man missile/plasma cannon squad that can move and fire.

 Carnage43 wrote:

valace2 wrote:

 Carnage43 wrote:

keisukekun wrote:
From what I've heard the stuff from the heresy book would wipe the floor with a "modern" army. Of course we'd have to playtest it to find out so initially I don't think I'd have a problem with it.

The army is largely normal marines, minus ATSKNF. There is almost zero flexibility in any of the squads (outside of their version of sternguard) and each unit has a very specific role. Everything seems slightly over priced as well.

If you ignore the super heavies, primarchs and don't take vehicles in squadrons, then I'd even go so far as to say that it's on par or worse then the vanilla marine codex.

That is, until you find the 1 or 2 tricks/exploits in the list, that are really well hidden actually, and you break the game with them.

I dunno, outside of Space Wolf and Grey Knight terminators they offer the most flexibility for their terminators. How does a full 10 man terminator squad with combi weapons and power axes sound?

Sounds like chaos terminators to me....minus the ability to take marks and having less LD. Catapharataii terminator squads with power axes are one of the few shining units in the list and only because they are scoring and a melee unit in an army with little melee and scoring ability.

Moritat commanders with twin plasma pistols, artificier armor and a jetpack under the influence of prescience is a "broken" unit. Nothing like averaging 72 plasma pistol hits a turn for ~250 points.
Catapharactii terminator character joining a devastator squad is on the list of "broken" as well. He confers the ability to move and fire all of your heavy weapons at full BS thanks to slow and purposeful. Nothing like a 10 man missile/plasma cannon squad that can move and fire.

Where did you see that a Cataphracti terminator confers slow and purposeful to a dev squad? Also how is that any different that Logan Grimnar conferring relentless on a Long Fang squad he joins?

valace2 wrote:

 Carnage43 wrote:

valace2 wrote:

 Carnage43 wrote:

keisukekun wrote:
From what I've heard the stuff from the heresy book would wipe the floor with a "modern" army. Of course we'd have to playtest it to find out so initially I don't think I'd have a problem with it.

The army is largely normal marines, minus ATSKNF. There is almost zero flexibility in any of the squads (outside of their version of sternguard) and each unit has a very specific role. Everything seems slightly over priced as well.

If you ignore the super heavies, primarchs and don't take vehicles in squadrons, then I'd even go so far as to say that it's on par or worse then the vanilla marine codex.

That is, until you find the 1 or 2 tricks/exploits in the list, that are really well hidden actually, and you break the game with them.

I dunno, outside of Space Wolf and Grey Knight terminators they offer the most flexibility for their terminators. How does a full 10 man terminator squad with combi weapons and power axes sound?

Sounds like chaos terminators to me....minus the ability to take marks and having less LD. Catapharataii terminator squads with power axes are one of the few shining units in the list and only because they are scoring and a melee unit in an army with little melee and scoring ability.

Moritat commanders with twin plasma pistols, artificier armor and a jetpack under the influence of prescience is a "broken" unit. Nothing like averaging 72 plasma pistol hits a turn for ~250 points.
Catapharactii terminator character joining a devastator squad is on the list of "broken" as well. He confers the ability to move and fire all of your heavy weapons at full BS thanks to slow and purposeful. Nothing like a 10 man missile/plasma cannon squad that can move and fire.

Where did you see that a Cataphracti terminator confers slow and purposeful to a dev squad? Also how is that any different that Logan Grimnar conferring relentless on a Long Fang squad he joins?

It's the way slow and purposeful is worded in the main rulebook. Sketchy as all hell, but I've looked into rules threads on both dakka and warseer and they both agree that SnP confire the ability to move and fire onto the unit. It came up in a tactica thread and I argued against it, but the wording is very weak and can be read several ways.

Well, a 120 point librarian isn't a 250 point special character to start, and the catapharactii terminator also buffs 10 man heavy weapon squads, not just 5. You can also take 3 of these terminator characters and 3 10 man dev squads...so there's that as well.

 Carnage43 wrote:
Moritat commanders with twin plasma pistols, artificier armor and a jetpack under the influence of prescience is a "broken" unit. Nothing like averaging 72 plasma pistol hits a turn for ~250 points.

72 plasma hits sounds impressive, but then you realize that any number above "enough to kill the entire unit" is just wasted and irrelevant. So, for example, compare that entire-unit-dead firepower to 250 points worth of IG plasma and it doesn't seem so scary. Then add in some more plasma to cover the cost of prescience, and finally remember that you can't shoot at all the following turn.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Carnage43 wrote:
Moritat commanders with twin plasma pistols, artificier armor and a jetpack under the influence of prescience is a "broken" unit. Nothing like averaging 72 plasma pistol hits a turn for ~250 points.

72 plasma hits sounds impressive, but then you realize that any number above "enough to kill the entire unit" is just wasted and irrelevant. So, for example, compare that entire-unit-dead firepower to 250 points worth of IG plasma and it doesn't seem so scary. Then add in some more plasma to cover the cost of prescience, and finally remember that you can't shoot at all the following turn.

Then combine with the fact that its a Risk Vs Reward unit, if you deepstrike in, and shoot down a unit. Yes that unit is dead, but so will yours next turn while being useless too!


They aren't broken, not by a long shot, it's very expensive.

 Omegus wrote:
Probably.

I wouldn't play against an unpainted/partially assembled army maxed out on all the crazy broken pre-Heresy tech items though.

So you don't play against the regular Grey Knight player then?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Carnage43 wrote:

valace2 wrote:

 Carnage43 wrote:

valace2 wrote:

 Carnage43 wrote:

keisukekun wrote:
From what I've heard the stuff from the heresy book would wipe the floor with a "modern" army. Of course we'd have to playtest it to find out so initially I don't think I'd have a problem with it.

The army is largely normal marines, minus ATSKNF. There is almost zero flexibility in any of the squads (outside of their version of sternguard) and each unit has a very specific role. Everything seems slightly over priced as well.

If you ignore the super heavies, primarchs and don't take vehicles in squadrons, then I'd even go so far as to say that it's on par or worse then the vanilla marine codex.

That is, until you find the 1 or 2 tricks/exploits in the list, that are really well hidden actually, and you break the game with them.

I dunno, outside of Space Wolf and Grey Knight terminators they offer the most flexibility for their terminators. How does a full 10 man terminator squad with combi weapons and power axes sound?

Sounds like chaos terminators to me....minus the ability to take marks and having less LD. Catapharataii terminator squads with power axes are one of the few shining units in the list and only because they are scoring and a melee unit in an army with little melee and scoring ability.

Moritat commanders with twin plasma pistols, artificier armor and a jetpack under the influence of prescience is a "broken" unit. Nothing like averaging 72 plasma pistol hits a turn for ~250 points.
Catapharactii terminator character joining a devastator squad is on the list of "broken" as well. He confers the ability to move and fire all of your heavy weapons at full BS thanks to slow and purposeful. Nothing like a 10 man missile/plasma cannon squad that can move and fire.

Where did you see that a Cataphracti terminator confers slow and purposeful to a dev squad? Also how is that any different that Logan Grimnar conferring relentless on a Long Fang squad he joins?

It's the way slow and purposeful is worded in the main rulebook. Sketchy as all hell, but I've looked into rules threads on both dakka and warseer and they both agree that SnP confire the ability to move and fire onto the unit. It came up in a tactica thread and I argued against it, but the wording is very weak and can be read several ways.

Well, a 120 point librarian isn't a 250 point special character to start, and the catapharactii terminator also buffs 10 man heavy weapon squads, not just 5. You can also take 3 of these terminator characters and 3 10 man dev squads...so there's that as well.

Couldn't I just put a terminator Captain in a Dev/Long Fang squad and have them walk around the table too?

Cataphracti have the slow an purposeful rule its in the wording gonna check that out. Regular terminators have the relentless rule

If it was a well-painted and put together army then I wouldn't mind at all, even if they were slightly overpowered, just because of the cool factor. If some waac player brings in a bunch of grey models just to use them for a rules advantage then I would mind.

No problem at all! I by myself run a 2k pre heresy Blood Angels army. Just use the aproppirate codex and thats it.

I've got no real trouble; if they're using the Forge World Heresy books I'd need to do a more in-depth reading of the rules first, but as a general concept I'd allow them on the table.

 Peregrine wrote:

 insaniak wrote:
There are tournaments out there that allow Forgeworld stuff. It's not as simple as 'It's Forgeworld, so it'll never be allowed in a tournament'...

I know that, and I've argued very strongly that ALL tournaments should allow FW because that's what the rules of 40k say. My point is that, despite having an explicit statement from GW that FW "40k approved" rules are part of the standard game, many TOs still resist allowing them. And when they refuse to allow things that are part of the game I wouldn't expect them to suddenly have a more favorable opinion of rules where GW has explicitly said "these are not part of standard 40k and are not meant to be used outside of special Heresy vs. Heresy games".

In short: FW haters won't allow Heresy stuff because it's not a codex, and people who say "play by the rules as given by GW" won't allow Heresy stuff because GW says it's not part of 40k. The only realistic way you're going to use Heresy rules in a tournament is if you find some kind of special Heresy-themed event.

That wording ion Slow an Purposeful is sketchy you sure they haven't FAQed that yet?

Also I just noticed the Predator that can take an Executioner cannon oh my. Already thinking about cannibalizing my IG stuff lol.

I've got no problems with it. Sure, a few "broken" examples have been mentioned, but are they really any worse than the options other armies have?

The only problem I would have is that I would be versing someone who has a heresy army which would make me so jealous. I reckon it would be very fun and challenging to verse a 30k army with a 40k army hopefully someone in my club gets one so I can try it out trying to take out a Primarch would be fun.

I don't know the rules of pre-heresy armies, but as long they follow the same game logic as regular 40k armies, I would fight that.

And by "game logic" I mean proper split to unit types, similar point costs for identical units, reasonable weapon limit (no all-plasma tactical or something of that sort), tanks following the normal logic.

You know what I mean, a "codex" that makes sense in a 40k game.
Heck, even a fandex I would allow for a casual game as long its not a power-grab fandex, and one that actually has a reason to exist and not use a regular army list (yet-another-marine-codex has no point, kroot army has.)

Don't the heresy rules have squads of 30 with like 10 plasma guns each and so on? I might give it a play out of curiosity, but the rules are balanced to be played against other heresy armies, not 40k armies. If you wanted to use the heresy models as Space Marines, Chaos Marines, or whatever though, I'd be 110% okay with it.

 Brother SRM wrote:
Don't the heresy rules have squads of 30 with like 10 plasma guns each and so on? I might give it a play out of curiosity, but the rules are balanced to be played against other heresy armies, not 40k armies. If you wanted to use the heresy models as Space Marines, Chaos Marines, or whatever though, I'd be 110% okay with it.

First off, the large squad are up to 20 man, and they typically are all bolter, or bolter, bolt pistol and CCW equipped. The squads with "10 plasma guns" cost an obscene amount of points, 325+ to be exact.

As for being "Balanced against other Heresy armies"....well, there's exactly 1 heresy army at the moment, so yeah, it's balanced against itself I suppose.

There's almost nothing unique in the army that isn't seen elsewhere, and most of it is overpriced by like 10%+.

valace2 wrote:

 Kaldor wrote:
It clashes. I play Warhammer Forty Thousand. Not Warhammer Thirty Thousand.

Now, while it clashes, it's still at least in-universe, as opposed to things like Hello Kitty space marines or MLP marines.

I'll play against it, but I'd prefer to play against another 40k army instead.

Well time is a pretty much abused regularly in 40k, Abbadon, Kharn an even Bjorn the Fell Handed are over 10,000 years old. Easily explained a cruiser carrying a large detachment of Imperial Fists was presumed lost due to a warp storm just after the Heresy an emerges 10000 years in the future.

Your examples are pretty poor, neither show abuses to the time line.

Chaos legionnares are in the Warp, a place where time does not exist in a proper sense.
Bjorn is old because he is in one of the most looked after dreadnaught sarcofagus in the IoM and spends most of his time in suspended animation.

The warp storm story point is very overused in my opinion as well.

As with any army though as long as you have the book and army list with you and answer questions during the game i wouldn't mind playing. Its the same with any new army list, I remember have to ask a lot of questions playing against Dark Eldar for the first time due to all the dice that started showing up when they charged.

 Brother SRM wrote:
Don't the heresy rules have squads of 30 with like 10 plasma guns each and so on? I might give it a play out of curiosity, but the rules are balanced to be played against other heresy armies, not 40k armies. If you wanted to use the heresy models as Space Marines, Chaos Marines, or whatever though, I'd be 110% okay with it.

There's only one FoC issue, and that is they have an extra Elite slot (The lord of War slot is in effect at 2000+, however it can be agreed not to be used), but can be cut as well.

And yes there are some thing where you can have 10 plasma cannons in a squad...But the word Overkill comes to mind, not to mention they are actually very expensive due to the fact that the original weapon isn't taken into account when swapping out.

Not to mention that squads can be limited, the "30 Plasma unit" can only get up to 10 strong, and is up to 300+ points, also do not forget that these squads do NOT have the marines all famous ATSKNF, they may always regroup, and they will have some extra abilities based on legion but they can be swept in combat.

The units that can hit 20 strong are generally those who are basic troops, Tactical type squads, or those with "Bolter Mastery" type skills.

As is the fact that it requires an entire tactic change if they are granted something as simple as drop pods, because it requires a "Rite of War" and will vary their list up because they cannot take specific things while using it, Terminators cannot even deep strike without a Rite of War as well.

As long as it follows the same rules i don't see much issue. Can even make some fun fluff with it.

A force of Legio Astartes space marines were lost in the Warp in M31. They have now been spit back out in the grim dark future of the 41st millennium.

 Harriticus wrote:
As long as it follows the same rules i don't see much issue. Can even make some fun fluff with it.

A force of Legio Astartes space marines were lost in the Warp in M31. They have now been spit back out in the grim dark future of the 41st millennium.

Well thats the thing. The mechanics of the game are in no way different, the only difference is with a few special rules granted to the legions, unit composition, and wargear. It is in effect one big damn codex. While (hopefully) there will be in depth reviews for all of the Legions, Betrayal gives you the ability to create your own, and their are so many different ways to do it. It really is a work of art.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Brother SRM wrote:
Don't the heresy rules have squads of 30 with like 10 plasma guns each and so on? I might give it a play out of curiosity, but the rules are balanced to be played against other heresy armies, not 40k armies. If you wanted to use the heresy models as Space Marines, Chaos Marines, or whatever though, I'd be 110% okay with it.

The basic TAC squad can take up to 20 guys with bolter and duel CCW for 290. I like that. The sergeant has similar upgrades to a normal tac squads. Should also not that this squad can not take any special or heavy weapons. Still with Fury of the Legion that unit can pump out 80 bolter shots in one turn. Thats a hell of a lot of damage, but the unit can't fire overwatch or shoot in their next turn. Attach a Consul Psyker with divination and that unit can do a ton of damage.

Pleased to do so - especially if they had the cool FW models

I am quite happy to play against FW models full stop - there are far more stuff broken in the Codexes............

Here is my first Preheresy list. With what I have ordered I can put this together.

Legion Centurian w/ Artificer Armour, Paragon Blade, Combi-Weapon, and Iron Halo 160pts
Rite of War: Pride of the Legion (makes the Veterans and Terminators troops)

Consul Librarian w/ mastery level 2. Divination power. 115pts

Apothecary 45pts attached to the Tactical Squad

5x Tactical Veterans 125pts

10x Cataphracti Terminators w/ Heavy Flamer, Plasma Blaster, 2x Paired Lightning Claws, 2x Thunder Hammer, 5x Power Axe, an 2x Combi Plasma, 414pts

20x Tactical Squad w/ Bolter, Bolt Pistol, and CCW 390pts

5x Heavy Support Squad w/ 4x Missile Launchers and Flak Missiles 205pts

Spartan w/ Armoured Ceramite 315pts Dedicated Transport for the Terminators

Achilles Land Raider 300pts

The Achilles and Spartan lead the way with the Centurian attached to the terminators inside the Spartan. The Librarian an Apothecary join the large tac squad and the vets and heavy support squad stay home, hopefully with the support squad getting some pot shots at enemy flyers.