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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/12/01 02:32:55
Subject: Deployment help
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Freaky Flayed One
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i want to make a flyer spam necron list but how does that work with the new deployment rules? my list will consist of 8 flyers and one jump infantry unit with troops in 5 of the flyers. the rules i am concerned with are:
50% of ur army has to be deployed
Flyers cant be deployed and must fly on
if there are no units on the field, you lose
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/12/01 02:36:09
Subject: Deployment help
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[DCM]
Tilter at Windmills
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Moving to You Make Da Call, as this appears to be a question about the official rules, which doesn't belong in the Proposed Rules forum.
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Adepticon 2015: Team Tourney Best Imperial Team- Team Ironguts, Adepticon 2014: Team Tourney 6th/120, Best Imperial Team- Cold Steel Mercs 2, 40k Championship Qualifier ~25/226
More 2010-2014 GT/Major RTT Record (W/L/D) -- CSM: 78-20-9 // SW: 8-1-2 (Golden Ticket with SW), BA: 29-9-4 6th Ed GT & RTT Record (W/L/D) -- CSM: 36-12-2 // BA: 11-4-1 // SW: 1-1-1
DT:70S++++G(FAQ)M++B++I+Pw40k99#+D+++A+++/sWD105R+++T(T)DM+++++
A better way to score Sportsmanship in tournaments
The 40K Rulebook & Codex FAQs. You should have these bookmarked if you play this game.
The Dakka Dakka Forum Rules You agreed to abide by these when you signed up.
Maelstrom's Edge! |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/12/01 02:39:59
Subject: Deployment help
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Freaky Flayed One
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alright thanks ill post it over there
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/12/01 02:40:48
Subject: Deployment help
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Nasty Nob on Warbike with Klaw
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It's at the end of a game turn you'd lose.
So if you have 1 unit of Wraiths on the board and they get wiped turn 1 you'll lose.
If you deploy nothing because they're all embarked on flyers, you lose.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/12/01 02:41:18
Subject: Deployment help
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Powerful Phoenix Lord
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Units that must start in reserve (and passengers if vehicles) don't count for how many can be in reserves. In your scenario, the Flyers (and cargo) all start in reserves leaving you with 1 unit (jump infantry). If they start in Reserve, you automatically lose, as at the end of Game Turn 1 you have nothing on the table.
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Greebo had spent an irritating two minutes in that box. Technically, a cat locked in a box may be alive or it may be dead. You never know until you look. In fact, the mere act of opening the box will determine the state of the cat, although in this case there were three determinate states the cat could be in: these being Alive, Dead, and Bloody Furious.
Orks always ride in single file to hide their strength and numbers.
Gozer the Gozerian, Gozer the Destructor, Volguus Zildrohar, Gozer the Traveler, and Lord of the Sebouillia |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/12/01 02:41:39
Subject: Deployment help
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Freaky Flayed One
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what about the other rule where you have to have 50 percent of ur army deployed
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/12/01 02:42:21
Subject: Deployment help
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Nasty Nob on Warbike with Klaw
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mjo2892 wrote:what about the other rule where you have to have 50 percent of ur army deployed Flyers/models embarked on them don't count towards that. Same with Droppods, and similar things
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/12/01 02:42:45
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/12/01 02:42:48
Subject: Deployment help
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Freaky Flayed One
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oh ok thank you so much !
Automatically Appended Next Post: oh one more thing. what if the entire list is flyers?
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/12/01 02:44:52
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/12/01 02:45:07
Subject: Deployment help
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[DCM]
Tilter at Windmills
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Anyway, as for the answers:
As you know, units which have to start in reserve (like flyers) are exempted from the limit on units in reserve. The main rulebook states clearly that models in a deep-striking transport don't count, but the main rulebook FAQ further clarifies that this applies to all flyer transports as well.
So if your whole army is mounted in flyers, than yes, you can reserve it all.
However, as you've noted if you end any game turn with no units on the table, you lose. So if you actually do the above, you pretty much* automatically lose. So you'll have to deploy something.
*: If you've got some way to get units onto the table sometime during game turn 1, you can avoid this. Space Marines can do it with Drop Pods, so allying with them is a possible way to do an all-reserve army, although they'd be Desperate Allies. Another way to make it work would be Nemesor Zandrekh's phased reinforcements, if your OPPONENT is bringing units on from Reserve during turn 1, but then you're hoping he's got drop pods or is playing Daemons, pretty much.
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Adepticon 2015: Team Tourney Best Imperial Team- Team Ironguts, Adepticon 2014: Team Tourney 6th/120, Best Imperial Team- Cold Steel Mercs 2, 40k Championship Qualifier ~25/226
More 2010-2014 GT/Major RTT Record (W/L/D) -- CSM: 78-20-9 // SW: 8-1-2 (Golden Ticket with SW), BA: 29-9-4 6th Ed GT & RTT Record (W/L/D) -- CSM: 36-12-2 // BA: 11-4-1 // SW: 1-1-1
DT:70S++++G(FAQ)M++B++I+Pw40k99#+D+++A+++/sWD105R+++T(T)DM+++++
A better way to score Sportsmanship in tournaments
The 40K Rulebook & Codex FAQs. You should have these bookmarked if you play this game.
The Dakka Dakka Forum Rules You agreed to abide by these when you signed up.
Maelstrom's Edge! |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/12/01 02:47:41
Subject: Deployment help
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Freaky Flayed One
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I think thats all the questions i have, thanks for all the help!
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/12/01 02:49:52
Subject: Deployment help
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Nasty Nob on Warbike with Klaw
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mjo2892 wrote:
Automatically Appended Next Post:
oh one more thing. what if the entire list is flyers?
If you have no models on the board at the end of any game turn you lose.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/12/01 02:59:54
Subject: Deployment help
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Ichor-Dripping Talos Monstrosity
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Necrons are one of the few lists you can make a Suicide list with (I know a guy who wants to take a Necron Autolose list to a tournament at warhammer world so he can just have an excuse to go get drunk in Bugmans Bar all day...)
But generally, you set aside 1-2 units to hide in a corner out of site of everyone so nothing can kill it during turn 1, then hope your flyers turn up turn 2 onwards.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/12/01 15:02:20
Subject: Deployment help
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Yellin' Yoof
Canada
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Related question: I thought the '50% must deploy' rule would obligate an all-flyer to at least put their HQ on the table... I thought it went something like this.
-DS/flyer transports and the dedicated unit inside it don't count towards the 50% rule.
-The HQ cannot take the transport as Dedicated Transport, so he counts against the 50% rule because he -could- setup on the table.
So, say a list with multiple immortal units in their dedicated transport night scythes, They start in reserve, no question, don't count against 50%
-One overlord is the HQ, he counts against the 50%, round up, so he HAS to be put on the table at the start.
Did I read something wrong?
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/12/01 15:03:33
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/12/01 15:19:00
Subject: Deployment help
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The Hive Mind
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Yes, you read it wrong.
You are allowed to reserve no more than 50% of your forces, round up. 50% of your forces is .5, rounded up to 1. So you're allowed to reserve 1 unit.
You'd lose after the bottom of 1, but you can do it.
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My beautiful wife wrote:Trucks = Carnifex snack, Tanks = meals. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/12/01 15:28:21
Subject: Deployment help
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Ichor-Dripping Talos Monstrosity
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Yeah, you've effectively read it backwards.
The rules specify:
A: No more than 50% of the army (rounding up) may be placed into reserve.
(i.e. 15 units, 50%= 7.5, so 8 can be placed in reserve.)
B: Units that must be placed in reserve, do not count towards this limit. (i.e. Flyers, Drop Pods, etc. (I'm not sure if Flying Monstrous Creatures can choose to enter as a flyer and so not count, and too lazy to check atm.)).
(i.e. Of the 15 units, 7 are Flyers, leaving 8 units, of which 4 can be placed into reserve.)
C: Units amd their Dedicated Transport, count as 1 towards the limit.
(i.e. so those 7 flyers are dedicated transports, so their 7 squads don't count towards the limit either, leaving you with 1 unit that counts towards the limit. (Each ICs always counts as 1 towards the limit), so you have 1 unit, 50% = 0.5, rounded up means you have 1 unit that can be placed in reserve.)
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/12/01 17:08:06
Subject: Deployment help
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Powerful Phoenix Lord
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FMCs can start on the table, gliding.
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Greebo had spent an irritating two minutes in that box. Technically, a cat locked in a box may be alive or it may be dead. You never know until you look. In fact, the mere act of opening the box will determine the state of the cat, although in this case there were three determinate states the cat could be in: these being Alive, Dead, and Bloody Furious.
Orks always ride in single file to hide their strength and numbers.
Gozer the Gozerian, Gozer the Destructor, Volguus Zildrohar, Gozer the Traveler, and Lord of the Sebouillia |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/12/01 18:59:32
Subject: Deployment help
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Yellin' Yoof
Canada
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Aha, thank you ovion and rigeld2, the rounding is in favor of reserve, but I read right about dedicated transport flyer/pods and their unit counting as one. Let me give a more complex example and tell me if I got everything right.
A hypothetical space marine army can take drop pods as Dedicated Transport for tac squads, or alone as a fast attack.
The player fields three squads with Pods, one dreadnought and a Fast Attack pod to carry the dreadnought. Two HQ (say a captain and a librarian character) and one predator for good measure. He would like to put both HQs withthe tac marines.
-All tacticals in their DT don't count towards the 50% since they must reserve, ditto for the fast attack drop pod.
-The dreadnought , the two HQs and the predator do count. That's 4 units, so player must place -two- on the table.
-Predator goes on the table, dread goes in the fast attack drop pod, one of the HQs could be put inside one of the pods but the other must be on the table...
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/12/01 19:11:58
Subject: Deployment help
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Brainy Zoanthrope
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what is the page number on the rule that says flyers do not count for your 50% you are allowed to reserve?
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/12/01 19:21:49
Subject: Deployment help
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Powerful Phoenix Lord
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TheContortionist wrote:what is the page number on the rule that says flyers do not count for your 50% you are allowed to reserve?
Page 124, where it says that units that must start in reserves, don't count.
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Greebo had spent an irritating two minutes in that box. Technically, a cat locked in a box may be alive or it may be dead. You never know until you look. In fact, the mere act of opening the box will determine the state of the cat, although in this case there were three determinate states the cat could be in: these being Alive, Dead, and Bloody Furious.
Orks always ride in single file to hide their strength and numbers.
Gozer the Gozerian, Gozer the Destructor, Volguus Zildrohar, Gozer the Traveler, and Lord of the Sebouillia |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/12/01 20:14:36
Subject: Deployment help
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Ichor-Dripping Talos Monstrosity
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Dreadnoughts can take pods as a dedicated transport... (at least they can in the alt. Marine books, )is it different in C:SM?
If so, you'd have 3 units, meaning two can go in reserve and one must be deployed. :p
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/12/01 20:47:15
Subject: Deployment help
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Yellin' Yoof
Canada
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Thank you Ovion, and that example was hypothetical, I play ork and don't have a SM codex, hehe.
Okay, so I understand the basics, one has to be careful as putting an IC with the units in the Dedicated-transport pod or flyer does -not- let a player ignore the 50% rule for those ICs.
Hmm, which brings up a question: I think Space marines can take a 'unit of ICs' with the Wolf Lords, and Necrons get a number of ICs if they get a royal court, right?
How would you count that, taking a royal court and spreading ICs in various units of warriors in night scythes? How would the 50% rule be considered with those spread-out ICs coming from - originally - one unit?
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/12/01 20:47:53
Subject: Deployment help
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Captain of the Forlorn Hope
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Spacecat wrote:Aha, thank you ovion and rigeld2, the rounding is in favor of reserve, but I read right about dedicated transport flyer/pods and their unit counting as one. Let me give a more complex example and tell me if I got everything right. A hypothetical space marine army can take drop pods as Dedicated Transport for tac squads, or alone as a fast attack. The player fields three squads with Pods, one dreadnought and a Fast Attack pod to carry the dreadnought. Two HQ (say a captain and a librarian character) and one predator for good measure. He would like to put both HQs withthe tac marines. -All tacticals in their DT don't count towards the 50% since they must reserve, ditto for the fast attack drop pod. -The dreadnought , the two HQs and the predator do count. That's 4 units, so player must place -two- on the table. -Predator goes on the table, dread goes in the fast attack drop pod, one of the HQs could be put inside one of the pods but the other must be on the table...
Drop pods are not Fast attack, they are Dedicated Transports. But in your situation of "The player fields three squads with Pods, one dreadnought [with a dedicated] pod to carry the dreadnought. Two HQ (say a captain and a librarian character) and one predator for good measure. He would like to put both HQs with the tac marines." Here is how this works. -All tacticals in their DT don't count towards the 50% since they must reserve, ditto for the Dreadnought in its drop pod as Dedicated transports and their contents do not count towards the calculation. (Do not forget that "When working out how many units can be placed in reserve, units that must be deployed by Deep Strike (along with any models embarked upon them) are ignored." P.36 -The two HQs and the predator do count. That's 3 units, so player must place -one- on the table. -Predator goes on the table, both of the HQs could be put inside pods.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/12/01 20:51:41
"Did you notice a sign out in front of my chapel that said "Land Raider Storage"?" -High Chaplain Astorath the Grim Redeemer of the Lost.
I sold my soul to the devil and now the bastard is demanding a refund!
We do not have an attorney-client relationship. I am not your lawyer. The statements I make do not constitute legal advice. Any statements made by me are based upon the limited facts you have presented, and under the premise that you will consult with a local attorney. This is not an attempt to solicit business. This disclaimer is in addition to any disclaimers that this website has made.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/12/01 21:08:23
Subject: Deployment help
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Ichor-Dripping Talos Monstrosity
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Spacecat wrote:Thank you Ovion, and that example was hypothetical, I play ork and don't have a SM codex, hehe. Okay, so I understand the basics, one has to be careful as putting an IC with the units in the Dedicated-transport pod or flyer does -not- let a player ignore the 50% rule for those ICs. Hmm, which brings up a question: I think Space marines can take a 'unit of ICs' with the Wolf Lords, and Necrons get a number of ICs if they get a royal court, right? How would you count that, taking a royal court and spreading ICs in various units of warriors in night scythes? How would the 50% rule be considered with those spread-out ICs coming from - originally - one unit? Each IC counts as 1. So if it has the IC rule, it's 1 for reserves. So yes, each Haemonculi, each member of a Royal Court, etc, they all count as 1. It's part of what kicked my Webway Portal list in the teeth - 6-8 Units would go on the field (3 Haemonculi, 3 Squads of Wracks in Venoms + potentially an Autarch and Storm Guardians in a Wave Serpent.) Then it was a case of 12-15 units being in reserve. (3 Haem, 3 Grotesques, 3 Wracks, 3 Talos, potentially a Wraithlord and some bikes.)
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/12/01 21:08:39
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/12/01 23:23:26
Subject: Deployment help
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Yellin' Yoof
Canada
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Let's not get too stuck on the dreadnought in a pod example, I was using a hypothetical situation with a non- DT pod. With the benefit of hindsight I'd redo the example with a few terminators taking a storm eagle (obviously not DT) as transport.
Thank you Deathreaper for mentioning page 36. But I find it less precise than page 124 though. Word of wisdom folks: don't let someone show you page 36 to state an IC in a pod doesn't count against the 50% rule! They do!
Okay! Now for a complex necron flying circus example, more interesting to the OP.
-Let us say we use one overlord as HQ.
-This unlocks a royal court, we take three crypteks
-Add four squads of immortals, one night scythe per squad.
-Some warriors are taken to hold a backfield objective, no transport.
Now, for the 50% rule, the four night scythes and immortals don't count. Overlord counts as one unit that may be placed on table. So are the warriors. The three crypteks start as a single unit, but count as 'three units' that may be placed on table since they are ICs.
This gives us a total of five units that 'may' be in reserve. Out of those, a minimum of 2 must be on the table turn one.
So a valid setup would be warriors and one cryptek set on the table on turn one (likely in hiding somewhere). Everything else in reserve, about to fly in. One overlord and two crypteks joining whichever immortals they feel like hitting the skies with. And if that grounded cryptek moves smartly, separate from the warriors (and survives), one night scythe could move near him on arrival and let him embark to zoom elsewhere.
Alternatively, take a bunch of warriors and immortals in scythes, a single HQ, let everyone ride the wind. Am I getting all of this right?
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/12/01 23:24:31
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/12/02 01:10:01
Subject: Deployment help
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Captain of the Forlorn Hope
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Spacecat wrote:Let's not get too stuck on the dreadnought in a pod example, I was using a hypothetical situation with a non- DT pod. With the benefit of hindsight I'd redo the example with a few terminators taking a storm eagle (obviously not DT) as transport.
Thank you Deathreaper for mentioning page 36. But I find it less precise than page 124 though. Word of wisdom folks: don't let someone show you page 36 to state an IC in a pod doesn't count against the 50% rule! They do! 
They do not because of Page 36, which specifies anyone embarked upon a Drop Pod is not counted. (Even though IC's say they are counted the Drop pods rules are more specific).
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"Did you notice a sign out in front of my chapel that said "Land Raider Storage"?" -High Chaplain Astorath the Grim Redeemer of the Lost.
I sold my soul to the devil and now the bastard is demanding a refund!
We do not have an attorney-client relationship. I am not your lawyer. The statements I make do not constitute legal advice. Any statements made by me are based upon the limited facts you have presented, and under the premise that you will consult with a local attorney. This is not an attempt to solicit business. This disclaimer is in addition to any disclaimers that this website has made.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/12/02 01:32:27
Subject: Re:Deployment help
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Yellin' Yoof
Canada
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DeathReaper, page 124 states 'Independent Characters are also counted as a single unit regardless of whether they have joined another unit or not.' when page 36 more generally states that units in pods/flyers don't count. I've got the opposite feeling to yours, that page 124 is a more specific set of guidelines to page 36's general statement.
This is worth debating! So, for all the YMDC people: Do you believe that ICs embarked with a unit in a flyer count against the 50% rule?
-Page 36 says units in flyers/pods don't count.
-Page 124 insists that ICs count as one unit, joined with another or not.
-Page 124 doesn't mention the very very specific case of an IC joined to a unit in a flyer/pod.
If I'm missing an argument, do tell.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/12/02 01:35:01
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/12/02 01:55:37
Subject: Deployment help
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Powerful Phoenix Lord
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The IC its embarked in a vehicle, not joined with it. As such the embarked rule applies, and they do not count.
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Greebo had spent an irritating two minutes in that box. Technically, a cat locked in a box may be alive or it may be dead. You never know until you look. In fact, the mere act of opening the box will determine the state of the cat, although in this case there were three determinate states the cat could be in: these being Alive, Dead, and Bloody Furious.
Orks always ride in single file to hide their strength and numbers.
Gozer the Gozerian, Gozer the Destructor, Volguus Zildrohar, Gozer the Traveler, and Lord of the Sebouillia |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/12/02 09:09:38
Subject: Deployment help
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Captain of the Forlorn Hope
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Page 124 insists that ICs count as one unit, joined with another or not.
The above is true.
But this is also true: Page 36 says units in flyers/pods don't count.
So the IC counts, unless he is embarked on a Drop Pod or Flyer.
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"Did you notice a sign out in front of my chapel that said "Land Raider Storage"?" -High Chaplain Astorath the Grim Redeemer of the Lost.
I sold my soul to the devil and now the bastard is demanding a refund!
We do not have an attorney-client relationship. I am not your lawyer. The statements I make do not constitute legal advice. Any statements made by me are based upon the limited facts you have presented, and under the premise that you will consult with a local attorney. This is not an attempt to solicit business. This disclaimer is in addition to any disclaimers that this website has made.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/12/02 19:33:22
Subject: Deployment help
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[DCM]
Tilter at Windmills
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Remember that it's not just units and models embarked in Dedicated Transport flyers and Drop Pods that are disregarded. Even if it's not Dedicated, you still ignore the unit/s/ICs embarked, per the main rulebook FAQ (page 7), which uses Valkyries as an example.
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Adepticon 2015: Team Tourney Best Imperial Team- Team Ironguts, Adepticon 2014: Team Tourney 6th/120, Best Imperial Team- Cold Steel Mercs 2, 40k Championship Qualifier ~25/226
More 2010-2014 GT/Major RTT Record (W/L/D) -- CSM: 78-20-9 // SW: 8-1-2 (Golden Ticket with SW), BA: 29-9-4 6th Ed GT & RTT Record (W/L/D) -- CSM: 36-12-2 // BA: 11-4-1 // SW: 1-1-1
DT:70S++++G(FAQ)M++B++I+Pw40k99#+D+++A+++/sWD105R+++T(T)DM+++++
A better way to score Sportsmanship in tournaments
The 40K Rulebook & Codex FAQs. You should have these bookmarked if you play this game.
The Dakka Dakka Forum Rules You agreed to abide by these when you signed up.
Maelstrom's Edge! |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/12/02 19:49:03
Subject: Deployment help
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Yellin' Yoof
Canada
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Thank you Mannahnin! Didn't think of the rulebook FAQ and that cinches it.
I had the oddest feeling, since Page 124 is more detailed than 36 yet doesn't cover that detail - for anything besides dedicated units. Let it be put to rest.
So back to the necron circus, the whole royal court could be setup attached to the flying immortals, good to know.
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