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So, I've hit a slump with my guard army recently. Spoiler alert for those who follow my battle reports.

The problem has basically been with tough units. I played a game recently against a person who brought literally the least they could spend in a guard codex (a lord commissar and two naked vet squads) so that in 1500 points he could fit in 4 melta/las punishers (one with pask), and two vendettas. I played a game against a nurgle foot horde where I didn't have enough melta and las to handle the sheer number of them, and my small stuff (in my case, lasguns, but it could easily be chimera weapons) struggled to get wounds. Eventually a demon prince showed up and basically single-handedly killed my army. I also played a similar game where a bunch of shunting grey knights ruined everything with a squad of interceptors, a dreadknight, and a small draigowing. Probably the hardest list I've been facing is a necron army with 3 fliers, 2 command barges with scythes, and then arks and annihilation barges. I get to pick between trying to swat down fliers, or trying to break open HP4/5 AV13 spam, with it being night fighting for half the game. I've also been struggling with a BA player that starts the list building phase with 3 AV13 vehicles and adds shield of sanguinius.

To put it another way, my best opponents have been moving up to really difficult to kill units, and I'm having a really hard time coping. In an attempt to handle the monstrous creature problem, I threw a couple of my own las/melta punishers in a list played at a local tournament, and it handled that class pretty well, being able to beat up on terminators and a dreadknight, but that same list lost 2/3ds of my points in a single round against the necron list when fliers blew up both of the tanks and a PCS, and a lord managed to make it into close combat with my goobers and the annihilation barges killed a lot else.

As such, players who are bringing AV13/14 spam with the occasional other tough things like MCs are starting to just run over my FLGS. The only real exception is a veteran BA player who brings crazy lists, but always gets the right luck when he needs it. I've been going around and around in my head, and haven't been able to figure things out. I can't just bring plasma, because, while it will help against the monstrous creatures, it won't do much other than kill my own guys against fliers, and will do nothing against heavy vehicles. I can't just bring lascannons/melta because I can't spam lascannons as well as my opponents can spam vehicles without HWSs, which will just fly off the board, and they're only SO good against MCs and fliers. I can't just go anti-flier, because those weapons don't do anything to anything else.

If it winds up that literally the only answer is vendettas then I'm going to quit guard until we get a new codex, as being forced to take a single unit in the codex to have any chance of winning sounds like the kind of game I don't want to play. Otherwise, the only things I've gotten much use out of are melta stormies and lascannon sentinels, as they don't need to cross open ground to get into range, but both of those units are pretty hit or miss...

So without needing to take vendettas, or without needing to take allies, with just legal guard units, how do you take down this kind of heavy stuff? I've always been a big believer in boys over toys, but the fact that I'm getting beaten up by armies that either literally or virtually min/max troops so they can get more toys is really depressing to me.

You have a chance to win w/o Vendettas, as dice are fickle.

However running them will improve your chances lol

I'm not sure why you're so stubborn about not using the most effective "tough unit" killer in the IG codex, but if you want to figure it out without Vendettas you first need to break it up into the various different unit types you're having trouble with. The answer to AV 14 spam is a lot different from the answer to flyer spam, and obviously that's completely different from dealing with a tough horde unit.

The other unfortunate part is that the answer is probably going to involve abandoning your traditional "foot with lots of troops" list in favor of mech vets and overwhelming heavy/fast choices.

Peregrine wrote:I'm not sure why you're so stubborn about not using the most effective "tough unit" killer in the IG codex, but if you want to figure it out without Vendettas you first need to break it up into the various different unit types you're having trouble with. The answer to AV 14 spam is a lot different from the answer to flyer spam, and obviously that's completely different from dealing with a tough horde unit.

40k to me loses its depth to the point of being uninteresting when you don't have options. If I wanted to play a game where I have the illusion of choice with few serious options, I'd go back to playing M:TG.

And part of the problem is, in fact, that there are a few different things. You can't take down vendettas with the same things you take down 5HP AV13 scythe barges, and you're not going to take down mephiston with the same things you take out AV14 spam with, or flier spam. The problem, of course, is that I don't feel like I can take a little bit of each as if my opponent spams any one of those things they're going to quickly overload my ability to handle anything at all, while at least melta/lascannon spam on my part sort of covers a bunch of this.

 Ailaros wrote:

If it winds up that literally the only answer is vendettas then I'm going to quit guard until we get a new codex, as being forced to take a single unit in the codex to have any chance of winning sounds like the kind of game I don't want to play.

Few points:

-How do you justify the use of the CCS? Considered by most to be a must-take in the guard codex.

-Why do you refuse allies? I understand it's "out of principle" but it doesn't make much sense.

-I take it you're still adverse to ForgeWorld stuff?


See, the trouble really isn't the guard codex, or the options at hands; moreso its the unnecessary handicaps you've placed on yourself.

-The Captain

I like the CCS, because he's always been my narrator. I don't think that unit is necessary.

As for allies, then I'm not running a guard army any more. I'm running a necron-and-guard army, or a grey-knights-and-guard army. I want to use things from the guard codex because I want to be a guard player. As for forgeworld, when I see in the rulebook where it says they're allowed, I'll consider it.

I suppose you could say it's handicapping, but I don't think this is the most egregious thing here. Can guard handle these things without a vendetta? Answers that have to go out of scope aren't interesting to me here.

 Ailaros wrote:
I want to use things from the guard codex because I want to be a guard player. As for forgeworld, when I see in the rulebook where it says they're allowed, I'll consider it.

GW's official stamp of approval for on new FW rulebooks isn't enough? Because this logic would lend itself to ruling out white-dwarf updates/army lists as well.

As for allies, then I'm not running a guard army any more. I'm running a necron-and-guard army, or a grey-knights-and-guard army.

Taking a rune priest and 5 Grey Hunters would really ruin the experience for you, huh?

I like the CCS, because he's always been my narrator. I don't think that unit is necessary.

Maybe you need a narrator in a vendetta?

I am with you on the Vendettas, I am not going near them.

I have a feeling you are not a big fan, but I think you should have a play with some allies sometime. Either Space Marines or Sisters of battle are great options, I have recently jumped to get some sisters to use Jacobus and a pair of Exorcists. I think he is a bit over priced but Khan would also give you an awesome blob along with outflanking marines.

Have you even tried blobs in 6th? I think they still have a place, even if it is a single combat blob backed up with lots of firepower.

Speaking of firepower, I have also been very impressed with my Lascannon heavy weapons squads in the last few games as they seem tougher than ever behind a defence line and get back in the fight seems like it was just made for them.

That said Imperial Guard are such a different beast now and it looks like you play in a very competitive area. Keep trying stuff out, there has to be a solution that gives you the army you want to play.

I personally think you're dealing with two different threats here. Some of the more veteran players might disagree, but IMHO the flyers and the tough ground units can be viewed as 2 separate issues, and I would break them down as such.

Fliers: You're fighting 3 fliers in this case, and as of yet there is no widespread skyfire except for fliers and aegis lines (or you could take a hydra). If you want to take them out reliably, a vendetta would be a very good choice, and really the only one that doesn't involve you staking your heavy weapons on a 1/6th chance to hit their target. An aegis line might help you as well, the walls will help your guardsmen survive (4+ cover) and the very anti-flyer turrets could definitely thin the Necron air out. Plus, the turrets are more heavy weapons for you, because both options (as well as the vendetta) can shoot at ground units too.

Tough units: I don't know what your current list looks like, but as the Imperial Guard you have some pretty solid tank options yourself. If you want a foot soldiers theme, look at weapons teams or try some different tactics with your storm troopers or veterans. Be smart about your shooting too; take a hard look at the probabilities when you make your list and have realistic expectations of what each unit can kill. Think about how the game will play out...meltas are cheaper but lascannons can take it out before it does more shooting, etc.

I'd say just start by looking over your list and thinking about what each unit does, and replace what doesn't work with stuff that can get a job done. Keep an open mind too; make sure the question you're asking isn't "How can I kill tanks with my lasguns?" You'll have to add some anti-armor, what kind is up to you but you have quite a few options in your codex.

2x plasma guns and a plasma pistol stormtrooper squad does wonderful. Deepstrike it behind a vehicle (reroll scatter) and unload on it, probably blowing it up. If you need to kill a tough critter, 5 plasma shots work quite well.

If you want allies, SW wolf priest works wonders with plasma. PE means plasma rarely overheats and you rarely fail to wound too. Great for plasma in a blobs.

You can also run special weapons squads with grenade launchers and a det pack to deal with most threats while being a minimal target. I use it as a fun unit to stick into chimeras as it adds a good deal of fire support while being of minimal value once the transport is destroyed.

most of guard's way to deal with things like DP is quantity of fire. first rank fire at 24 or bring it down within 12 and you should be putting out enough shots from a 30 man blob squad do take out almost anything (i run my blobs plas/autocannon).
VS dp you are doing 2 wounds with las guns, 2.5 with plasma, and 1.5 with autocannons, meaning hes dead in 1 round.

Now if you are having problems with terminators or 2+ armor critters, plasma cannon russes are great (obviously not on the ord ones)

Seriously, these.

The answer to your problems 100%, and all that is required is to accept that GW supports their use in regular 40k now.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

zephoid wrote:

If you want allies, SW wolf priest works wonders with plasma. PE means plasma rarely overheats and you rarely fail to wound too. Great for plasma in a blobs.

Rune priests are better in literally every way.

The problem is that you're ruling out the best options you have available, and then complaining that once you've ruled out all the options you have no options left.

The Vendetta's whole purpose is to be anti-tank and (in 6th) AA. It's amazing at those two roles, and exactly the kind of powerful dual-role unit that you need when you're up against a wide variety of spam lists. There just isn't anything else in the codex that can handle both AA and anti-tank effectively, so refusing to take Vendettas means you need two units to do the job of one, and that probably isn't enough to handle both spam lists.

Forge World rules are, like it or not, part of standard 40k. You can personally choose to impose a limit on yourself and not use them, but it means throwing away units like Sabre guns and Vulture gunships. Sabre guns (with lascannons) give you spammable anti-tank, but with skyfire AND interceptor to make flyer lists cry, which gives you the same kind of dual-role unit that the Vendetta offers. Meanwhile the Vulture with punisher canons can deal with all but AV 12 flyers through sheer volume of fire, hurt Rhinos/Chimeras/etc with vector dancer to ensure you hit side armor, and make horde armies cry. Then you have to consider things like heavy mortars (cheap pseudo-Griffons in the elite slot), which give you cheap and efficient anti-infantry firepower and allow you to focus your remaining resources on anti-tank and AA.

Finally, you criticize the "minimum troops, maximum tanks" approach to list building, but that's a fundamental strategic problem for you. If your opponents can win objective games through firepower alone with only token troops you don't really have much of a chance if you're spending tons of points on conscript blobs and similar low-firepower scoring units. Even infantry squads with LCs and melta can't match the firepower of melta vets/Vendettas/Medusas/etc, so you're putting yourself at a disadvantage in a firepower vs. firepower fight. This gives you only two choices:

1) Focus even more on infantry hordes, bring so many bodies that tank/flyer spam lists can't even hope to kill them all, and camp your "home" objectives. It's boring (you'll just pull models off until the game ends and then hopefully win on objectives), it's likely to force you to play for a draw, and it sucks if you have an odd number of objectives and your opponent gets to place first, but if you can't hold objectives as it is then it's your only hope to win with foot hordes.

2) Give up the foot army and play mech vets. Veterans givesyou efficient firepower, transports protect and deliver it, tanks everywhere gives you target saturation of your own, and the lower cost of 2-3 veteran squads enables you to stop spending points on low-firepower scoring units and throw them all into bringing more fast/heavy units.

Okay, because people have seemed to miss this, let me say it again. If your answer to "can guard handle this problem?" is "no, you need forgeworld, allies, or vendettas", you can feel free to shorten your answer to "no". While you're there, don't bother posting at all.

As for guard tanks, they do have some nice durability, but they don't have the required weapon kit. None of the russes (save perhaps the punisher) are good against fliers, but fliers are also good against the punisher (well, enough of them). Likewise, except perhaps the punisher, none of them are good at volume of fire, and none, at all, are good against AV13+ spam. If I'm facing off against a russ+vendetta list, or a barge spam+doom scythe list, I can't see any russes doing very well.

As for HWSs, they just get killed really, really fast. It doesn't matter if they have good firepower if they can't stick around to use it. As for blobs, I haven't bothered because blobs are mostly dead. That said, spamming PISs with meltaguns and lascannons is the closest I've come to solving this problem. The only issue with it is that it's a rather inefficient way to get these kinds of guns.

As for an aegis, I tried it and wasn't impressed. Fliers shoot over aegises, and a single interceptor+skyfire weapon isn't doing much to them. I am starting to get somewhat tempted by it again, but that's only because I've been playing with stupid small amounts of terrain recently (and at tournaments, which never have anywhere close to enough).

I've been doing stormies a lot in 6th ed, but always with flamers or melta. I suppose I could give plasma stormies a try. It's kind of sad that my luck is so terrible with plasma weapons, though (and no, I'm not just saying that). I guess the biggest problem I've been having with my stormtroopers is that they are SO hit or miss. They land dead on and beat face, or they scatter and kill themselves with a mishap or roll snakeyes to pen with meltaguns and do absolutely nothing. At least for me, it seems like there is no middle ground whatsoever. I guess I have a bit of a hard time seeing how plasma stormies would fix this.

As for other things I've been thinking about, it just struck me that for fliers at least there is the option of a techpriest with multimelta servitors. A squad of 5 would be rather easy to hide, and if you're snap firing anyways, the fact that you need to move them wouldn't matter. With BiD, you're pretty likely to get a hit in melta range against any flier. Doesn't work against a WHOLE lot else, though...

And that's sort of the problem.

Ok, no vendettas. How about bare-bone valks with SWSs inside? It gives you at least some form of anti-air and another unit with meltaguns and even a demo charge you can grav chute in for cheap and see what it can do. Combined with the stormies it might provide for some extra back field punch.

 Ailaros wrote:
Okay, because people have seemed to miss this, let me say it again. If your answer to "can guard handle this problem?" is "no, you need forgeworld, allies, or vendettas", you can feel free to shorten your answer to "no". While you're there, don't bother posting at all.

Then just throw your IG in the trash. You aren't going to solve the problem by arbitrarily ruling out all of the options and then complaining that you don't have any options left.

I suppose my only reluctance with this is that in order to put part of an infantry platoon in reserve, I have to put all of an infantry platoon in reserve. Not the biggest problem (especially if I have, say, al'rahem), but still...

It would be nice to have stuff running into the backfield, but I think before I'd all that seriously consider a 3x melta SWS in a vendetta, I'd probably go for a 3x melta vet squad in chimeras first. The new vehicle rules means an 18" highland charge turn 1...

 TheCaptain wrote:

Rune priests are better in literally every way.

Wolf Priests dont have to deal with psychic tests (every 3rd or 4th army brings eldar allies), give fearless to the blob and stealth with saga of the hunter. No, wolf priests are far better

zephoid wrote:
Wolf Priests dont have to deal with psychic tests (every 3rd or 4th army brings eldar allies), give fearless to the blob and stealth with saga of the hunter. No, wolf priests are far better

You don't just take rune priests for their psychic powers, you take them for psychic defense (which they are amazing at). Area psychic defense is far more useful than giving some special bonuses to a single squad that the HQ has to join.

zephoid wrote:

 TheCaptain wrote:

Rune priests are better in literally every way.

Wolf Priests dont have to deal with psychic tests (every 3rd or 4th army brings eldar allies), give fearless to the blob and stealth with saga of the hunter. No, wolf priests are far better

ATSKNF is better for guard blobs.

zephoid wrote:

 TheCaptain wrote:

Rune priests are better in literally every way.

Wolf Priests dont have to deal with psychic tests (every 3rd or 4th army brings eldar allies), give fearless to the blob and stealth with saga of the hunter. No, wolf priests are far better

eh, um, no they're really not.

I'd rather give the Blob ATSKNF over Fearless.

Oh you got assaulted by something atrocious and painstakingly dreadful, enjoy Mr Fearless mob.

4+ 24" No Stick for Psy Defense. Access to Divinination, one that IG can't get w/o Allies IIRC.

 Ailaros wrote:
Okay, because people have seemed to miss this, let me say it again. If your answer to "can guard handle this problem?" is "no, you need forgeworld, allies, or vendettas"

But FW, allies, and vendettas as an answer wouldn't be "no, you need..."

it would be "yes, with..."

because they are all legal, viable resources for guard.

I get that you harbor reluctance to these avenues of adaptation, but that's not the issue of confusion. The confusion is that it doesn't make sense.

You're lighting yourself on fire and saying "no fire extinguishers" by playing games against opponents that don't follow your same handicaps while you adhere to them.

I mean other than having fliers, it seems like your best bet to fight fliers within the codex is a unit of three hydras with camo netting, behind and aegis. Throw in a Manticore or basilisk squad and hopefully you can at least deal with heavier armor. If not by killing them out right, then by chewing off hull points. It's expensive, but would work I would think.

You can take Valkyries with a Lascannon and Missiles.

Does that fit your criteria?

All things considered, it's not exactly a bad option.

This is not a discussion about which SW HQ choice is the best, people.

So, another random thing to throw out there is basilisk spam. I'm talking like 5 or 6 at 1500 points. It doesn't hurt fliers, but it does cause penetrating hits on necron vehicles, which would make them easy targets for lascannon spam (plus, they're open topped, so a decent chance to explode). Meanwhile, it wouldn't be great against most monstrous creatures, but it would be decent against a few of them. As for heavy vehicles, it would be hitting on side armor, and while I'm not a big fan of killing vehicles by stripping HP, when we're talking about S9 ordnance spam, it might just be doable.

Plus, it stops those annoying plague marines and FNP blood angels cold.

TheCaptain wrote:All things considered, it's not exactly a bad option.

Why not?

 Ailaros wrote:

TheCaptain wrote:All things considered, it's not exactly a bad option.

Why not?

The Valk with Lascannon and Missiles?

I mean, it's a flyer with skyfire S8AP3 Ordinance missiles.

And a Lascannon. For 115 points. Point for point, ruling out the better options that you desire to, it's your best AA platform.

 TheCaptain wrote:
I mean, it's a flyer with skyfire S8AP3 Ordinance missiles.

Ordnance being the key point. So each turn you can only fire one BS 3 missile and a snap fire LC, unless you want to waste your second (and only other) missile shot on another snap shot. IOW, a high chance to do absolutely nothing each turn, flyer rules and single-shot weapons that limit the number of turns it gets to fire, and a weapon that isn't all that impressive even when it does hit. And all for only 15 points less than a Vendetta. If that's the best remaining option for AA, it's time to just give up IG.

 Ailaros wrote:
So, another random thing to throw out there is basilisk spam.

Not really a good option when you're playing foot hordes. You don't have the target saturation to keep AV 12 open-topped tanks alive, so they're going to die fast. If you want to spam Basilisks you're probably going to have to combine it with turning all of your troops into veteran squads, and then cutting out half of them in favor of more tanks.

Plus, it stops those annoying plague marines and FNP blood angels cold.

FNP BA, sure, but not plague marines since they're T5. You deny the armor save, but you still allow FNP and possibly a cover save. As much as I dislike the Colossus even it is better than a Basilisk for dealing with plague marines.

 Peregrine wrote:

 TheCaptain wrote:
I mean, it's a flyer with skyfire S8AP3 Ordinance missiles.

Ordnance being the key point. So each turn you can only fire one BS 3 missile and a snap fire LC, unless you want to waste your second (and only other) missile shot on another snap shot. IOW, a high chance to do absolutely nothing each turn, flyer rules and single-shot weapons that limit the number of turns it gets to fire, and a weapon that isn't all that impressive even when it does hit. And all for only 15 points less than a Vendetta. If that's the best remaining option for AA, it's time to just give up IG.

I mean, vouched for Vendettas, Sabres, and Allies already.

Why not give the least used option in the entire codex some love? Under such strict parameters, it's probably legitimately the best choice.

But they're ordnance, which makes everything else snap fire. Plus, this has some decent anti-flier (though I don't know if it's necessarily the best outside of the vendetta), but it doesn't seem to handle non-fliers very well.

 Ailaros wrote:

If it winds up that literally the only answer is vendettas then I'm going to quit guard

Er, you could rationally adapt to the changes 6th has brought instead?

 TheCaptain wrote:

 Ailaros wrote:
Okay, because people have seemed to miss this, let me say it again. If your answer to "can guard handle this problem?" is "no, you need forgeworld, allies, or vendettas"

But FW, allies, and vendettas as an answer wouldn't be "no, you need..."

it would be "yes, with..."

because they are all legal, viable resources for guard.

I get that you harbor reluctance to these avenues of adaptation, but that's not the issue of confusion. The confusion is that it doesn't make sense.

You're lighting yourself on fire and saying "no fire extinguishers" by playing games against opponents that don't follow your same handicaps while you adhere to them.

And if your opponent won't play if you use Forgeworld?

As much as that official 40k stamp helps, its no good if your local gaming group just won't play you if you bring those units. I can argue all I want, but if they refuse to play I am out of luck.
A lot of tournaments still don't let people take Forgeworld, which is another problem.

Vendettas, unless you have a ton of extra lascannons lying around (which I don't) or are an excellent scratch builder, are $91 a pop. Hardly an affordable option.

I do fully embrace allies, but I can see why Ailaros might not be able to take Forgeworld or Vendettas.