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Everyone has cheese and op units. Vendettas are fine and fit a role.

Back to trolling.
Vendettas = OP

Voxick wrote:
Everyone has cheese and op units. Vendettas are fine and fit a role.

Back to trolling.
Vendettas = OP

What's the cheese/OP unit in Codex: Orks, Codex: Black Templars, Codex: Tau or Codex: Space Marines?


Back on topic: Outflanking Chimeras with Al'rahem might work. It'd be annoying as crap to deal with as well.

 Trickstick wrote:
Maybe you could try a hybrid list. Give Al'rahem a few chimera. You would still have a foot list, just that stupid Rahamel (I think that was your name for him) is always turning up late and stealing the glory.

This isn't a very good idea. Keeping points off the table means those points aren't contributing to killing stuff until turn 2-3 at the earliest. Meanwhile Al'rahem's own squad is decent (4x melta/plasma with BiD) but expensive, but the rest of the unit is garbage. Basic platoon squads don't have nearly enough firepower to be worth taking, and outflanking them doesn't improve that very much.

Wow! There's eight pages of stuff here! Well, I made it through 2 pages and noticed a lot of bickering off topic. With that, I will chime in with somethings that may or may not have been said:
You only have a few options, which are heavy/special weapon saturation and area denial.
I would suggest Stormtroopers. Run 3 units of 5, 2 with 2 melta and 1 with 2 plasma, give them the reroll-scatter mission. I feel this could stop the Punisher shennanigans, it would down some annihilation barges and would generally swing the game in your favor.
Since you have free space in your fast attack now, I would suggest out-flanking sentinels with Autocannons. If you have the models, 9 of them will put out some fire power and could help with the flyer problem.
The other thing I mentioned was area denial. Use your troops to give nowhere for those pesky necron fliers to land... and if they find a spot to be, then make sure nothing is standing there. They can be pretty predicatble in movement and since you can premeasure, give that a try.
Also, I don't like the sound of your LGS, if they are running such spammy/beardy/abusive type lists and they for some reason frown on forgeworld and/or Vendettas. Tell them to take a walk.

Can't really reinvent the wheel here...

You need tanks to do the killing, guardsmen to do the dying.

Looks like you have too much stuff that fills the dying role

I followed just the first two pages. Here's my two cents: I think IG Guard is broken, especially up against to GK, Necrons, and Chaos. Guard units are cheap in points against these armies, but not cheap enough to swarm them with numbers or buckets of dice for shooty attacks.

If IG doesn't get the first turn, or make the most of its shooty DR's, then I'm cooked. A savvy opponent will insure his troops are spread apart as legally possible to reduce damage from IG pie plates. IG Basilisks are nice, until your opponent gets under their 24" minimum, making harder for them to hit anything without worrying abut hitting your own troops.

FNP, Fearless, and high morale stats makes it all but impossible for Guard units to disrupt the enemy infantry units mentioned above. Plague Marines especially. Pinning? Why does GW even bother with pinning, except to add more insult to injury to IG on the recipient end?

In 5th Ed. Hydras were great. But in 6th, not so much. Its not because they can only snap shot at ground units. Its hoping they can be worth their points trying to roll 5's and 6's to bring down AV12 Helldrakes before they get toasted themselves. Auto-cannons do not seem as powerful as they use to be in 5th for Guard.
FW selections could be a solution, but then, it's all about having deep pockets, or time and ability to scratch-build.

Then you have Chaos units and characters gaining battlefield upgrades--I had one Chaos terminator turn into a Daemon Prince, after a successful melee with my IG units---Yea! Admittedly, they have equal risk to go otherwise, but still, Guard needs something similar, like hero creation.

How about an ace character like Pask for Vendettas? Minefields or claymores to help even the odds for lowly guards against charging heavy duty melee units? Spend extra points to pre-registering artillery strikes with less scatter or higher BS mods. A big change I really like to see is making Tank Shock more deadly for Guard tanks. Seriously, a Leman Russ or Baneblade should have the ability to run over and squash lesser vehicles and infantry--IG armor should literally in game terms have the ability to grind the enemies of the Imperium underneath the treads of its tanks. None of this wussy pushing them back if they fail their morale check stuff.

Perhaps the answer to playing IG cinematically is to go to smaller point games that don't require so much melta/plasma/demolisher spam for the Guard to hold their own. Where flamers, GL, and heavy bolter are sufficient.

 Brushfire wrote:
until your opponent gets under their 24" minimum,

Minimum range is gone in 6th

 Brushfire wrote:

Then you have Chaos units and characters gaining battlefield upgrades--I had one Chaos terminator turn into a Daemon Prince, after a successful melee with my IG units---Yea! Admittedly, they have equal risk to go otherwise, but still, Guard needs something similar, like hero creation.

Please GW no, don't ever do this. I chose guard because I love the idea of nameless faces of humanity killing monsters and genetically altered supermen. The idea of heroes being generated is abhorrent to me. If I wanted heroes I'd play SM.

 Griddlelol wrote:
Minimum range is gone in 6th

You should read what he actually posted instead of just responding with the reflex "minimum range is gone". The comment is clearly talking about the fact that you scatter an additional 3" inside your minimum range, not claiming that you can't fire at all.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Brushfire wrote:
A savvy opponent will insure his troops are spread apart as legally possible to reduce damage from IG pie plates.

And that's when you bring melta and plasma and focus fire on the models that are now out of cover (and if you're playing with so much terrain that your opponent can still get cover on everything at 2" coherency, you have too much terrain) and kill them with no save at all. Spreading out was extremely effective in 5th since you just had to hide half the unit to give everyone cover, but now that 6th has added focus fire and model-by-model cover saves spreading out often has a high price.

And of course there's also vehicles to consider. Shoot a unit out of a transport, drop a pie plate on it before it can spread out.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Griddlelol wrote:
Minimum range is gone in 6th

You should read what he actually posted instead of just responding with the reflex "minimum range is gone". The comment is clearly talking about the fact that you scatter an additional 3" inside your minimum range, not claiming that you can't fire at all.

Excuse me for assuming referencing 24" minimum range meant...24" minimum range. I guess trying to clear up rules is a character weakness on my part.

 Griddlelol wrote:

 Brushfire wrote:
until your opponent gets under their 24" minimum,

Minimum range is gone in 6th

Yes, but the scatter penalty is greater without BS adjustment.

 Brushfire wrote:

Then you have Chaos units and characters gaining battlefield upgrades--I had one Chaos terminator turn into a Daemon Prince, after a successful melee with my IG units---Yea! Admittedly, they have equal risk to go otherwise, but still, Guard needs something similar, like hero creation.

Please GW no, don't ever do this. I chose guard because I love the idea of nameless faces of humanity killing monsters and genetically altered supermen. The idea of heroes being generated is abhorrent to me. If I wanted heroes I'd play SM.

I agree, but Guard must make a trade-off of cheap infantry for not so cheap armor, hence losing it's human wave advantage to outfight its technically and skilled superior enemies with numbers.

 Griddlelol wrote:
Excuse me for assuming referencing 24" minimum range meant...24" minimum range. I guess trying to clear up rules is a character weakness on my part.

That's why I said you need to read the entire context before reflexively posting "no more minimum range". The reference to minimum range said that inside your minimum range "you have a higher chance of hitting your own troops", not "you can't shoot at all", which makes it a very obvious reference to the fact that inside your minimum range you can't subtract your BS from the scatter distance. And considering that the 6th edition barrage rules still call the number in question "minimum range", it's an entirely correct statement to make.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Brushfire wrote:
I agree, but Guard must make a trade-off of cheap infantry for not so cheap armor, hence losing it's human wave advantage to outfight its technically and skilled superior enemies with numbers.

Conclusion: human wave guard is dead. Play mech vet guard.

 Brushfire wrote:


Yes, but the scatter penalty is greater without BS adjustment.

Indeed, Peregrine already pointed out my failure to read fully.

 Brushfire wrote:

I agree, but Guard must make a trade-off of cheap infantry for not so cheap armor, hence losing it's human wave advantage to outfight its technically and skilled superior enemies with numbers.

I don't understand what that has to do with my sergeant becoming a hero if he performs a feat on the battlefield. Yes, the horde foot lists are over, but guard has always been about the tanks in my opinion anyway.

Yes. We all do. ??

I run three sents with mutli lasers because they are cost effective in a 1500 point. As well they work with the astropath... so unless you have something to back up your input with, this unit sucks,,, ets then dont add your input...

Sents cheap and effective for what it can do..
36" range and its only 105 points for 9 shoots. Rear armour on almost all vehicles is 10, you will always find some task for your unit if you set your army up that way. The question that most of you did not answer is that when you select a unit, do you give it a task? My sents are set up for back field problems...

A vendetta is much more survivable, and cost effective. Not to mention, you can most certainly not ensure rear armor with the Sentinel, and you fail to address the fact that if you aren't hitting rear armor, you aren't doing anything useful.

It meets your range for the most part and adds the str of the tank

AP2, str 9
ap3, str8

Snapshoot might of changed it a bit, but its still an all around combo for the tank.

The lascannon is not useful. The LRBT will almost always be in range, and should not be splitting its time between shooting a single lascannon at armor, and (doing its actual job) by shooting a pie plate. Just keep it to shooting a pie plate. You save 15 points.

Now we are onto harker and the unit set up I gave. Do you guys have any input then this unit sucks. Have you tried the unit?, I mean have you really thought about what this unit is tasked to do... Oh bring a flamer over and burn the unit up. Ok that work well but oh ya,,,, im loaded up in a chimera and rolling in with a heavy flamer as well. So bring your flamer and will see who last the longest....

This unit is set with a task, back field objectives,, tank kiling,, holding there ground... You put a unit like this in somebodies back field,, its going to force them to re direct to deal with it... Not everybody is going to be spaming a zillion units of the same type. As well most tournies have a strong comp vs crap spam.. even in pick up games this guy will rock out.. Task him and use it..

You're being ridiculously defensive. Calm down. The chimera is a waste of points, and the heavy flamer is too. If the chimera explodes, you'll be taking casualties on an already overcosted unit. Harker is for infiltrating a vet squad in. Infiltrate the vet squad in. "This unit is set with a task...tank killing." Why. Why is it there for tank killing. You have a heavy flamer on it. You keep saying to task your units, but then give advice on the contrary.

Harker, 3x vets melta guns, chimera(heavy flamer, multi laser), xtra armour. With the astropath, you can direct the flow of set up and use harker to out flank. As well its an all around unit that can dig in and reach objectives. I do understand that your going to have a few guy die when the chimera blows up. That when you take advantage of the cover save from camo in the wreckage, on the next few rounds of shooting.

Again, the aggressive defensiveness looks ridiculous, and prohibits you from being taken seriously. It's called "blob", also, and blobs don't need two vox casters. Not to mention, every guard commander understands accounting for orders when building a list. So check that "at the door".

Two casters so that you can split the unit 20-30 ie a speed bump if needed. As well some people call it blooooooob, or bloob, or bloooooooooooooooooooob because its a lot of guys...Also if every guard commander understands and account for order. Then why do you see so many list with out those option being taken into account?

You've taken user criticism way too seriously.

Na, just gave some pointers on units(from exp) while others mocked it..

As a result, your lashing out in return kindof looks ridiculous.

Who did I lash out at,,,,, I guess maybe we discussed this thread and pointed out tactical options?

So does the excessive use of ellipses, especially when they are commas.

This is a forum, not english 101...

Giving input is fine, but don't get upset when people disagree. This is the internet. That happens almost 100% of the time

.

How many times have I read that people are asking for feedback. Then you have said person say this unit is junk with out giving any reason why?

Simple,,,lack of exp,,

Also, you assume we, some of the best guard commanders around, aren't accounting for things like orders, and haven't tried most options. I can guarantee most of us with a post count over 100 have tried just about every option in the guard dex at least once. If we say something about a unit, positive or negative, it's either because we know so based on solid math and statistics, or experience.

I assume nothing but gave advice on how to address issues per the topic. Scroll back a few pages and read up on my advice. Now, the people that quoted my advice did just that with out any input. go figure,,,

Actually, I did a bit of browsing, and noticed this little gem.

Here is the fun part,,,solid math has no part in 40k. I am sorry to burst your bubble on this because your dealing with a d6. Statistics/experience, we can work with that for the IG..