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Fire Warriors should be BS3.
Suits Should be BS4.
Both flavors of Commander should be BS5. (Much like Space Marine Captains/Chapter Masters)

What I want to know is why if Elite Fire warriors outside battlesuits are BS4 then why are they BS 3 inside battlesuits?

In 6th edition, we are looking at two major choices for troop choices that can "succeed": High Durability (MEQ mostly) or High Numbers (IG, Orks, Tyranids, etc.). Tau FW are neither.

12-man teams at LD 7/8 are simply not durable enough or high-enough in number to hold objectives reliably.

That being said, I'd like to see a few things:
- FW teams allowed up to at least 20 models.
- Crisis Teams allowed up to at least 5 models.
- FW price reduction to 9 pts. They should be more costly than orks (better BS, weapon and save) and IG (better base weapon and save).
- Free up or introduce new weapon options for every unit in the game, especially Stealth Suits and Fire Warriors (why not give them a Heavy version of the Missile Pod at 1 per 10?)


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Also of note:

All of you claiming fluff as a reason for not changing stuff forget that fluff is not so sacred that it can't be changed as well. We have good precedent for this.

And, allowing the forge world versions and units more freely would go a long way. Tetras are awesome and I like the TX-42 variant kf the piranha.

The Firewarriors are one of the toughest troop choices in the game . . . when riding inside an AV 12 transport that gets a 3+ save against most shooting attacks.

If you are going to tinker with the Firewarriors themselves (and honestly I don't think they need much, either drop them a point or make the team leader and grenades included at no extra cost plus do something about the Pulse Carbine) I'd suggest looking at their most potent weapon, the Devilfish.

As it is right now, the Devilfish is one of the best transports of the game and the ability to fire upto 7 strength 5 shots a turn is pretty nice too. But I think that some work could be done to make it a true IFV to support the Firewarriors within, and I think that work could best be done with the missiles. The Devilfish has access to 2 missile weapons, neither of which it can properly use to lay a hurt on enemy targets that the Burst Cannon can't also hurt. I'd like to see one (or both) of the following minor changes. Do them and the Devilfish (and most other Tau vehicles) become much better at giving those little blue dudes the fire support they need.

Change 1 The Seeker Missile. Small change here, but in addition to being launched at Markerlight hits (with BS 5) the Devilfish (and other seeker equipped vehicles - hello tank hunting Piranha squadrons) should be able to fire their Seeker Missiles at their own Ballistic Skill. This isn't a huge change, but it gives that fire support option to those who need it but can't spare a markerlight token and it frees upmmarkerlight tokens for other useful things. Also, it makes for some wickedly potent alpha strike lists and cuts down on Railgun dependency. Let's also not forget that it would help the Skyray a fair bit too.

Change 2 The Smart Missile System. Okay, this one is mostly something that has bothered me for ages. If the Missile Pod and the SMS are basically the same launcher, why don't they fire the same missiles? Give the SMS 36 inches of range, Strength 7 and AP 4 like the Missile Pod. Give the Missile Pod the special targeting abilities of the SMS while we are AT&T it and well call it a day. In the alternative let both weapons fire both missiles, the harder striking and longer ranged but less accurate Missiles alongside the more accurate but shorter ranged and less powerful Smart Missiles.

Either way you do it, any vehicle with an SMS immediately becomes a legitimate threat upto AV 12 and can occasionally get lucky on AV 13. It also can lay a hurt on Monstrous Creatures quite nicely and if something happens to give it Skyfire for a turn, it should mulch most fliers (especially as the SMS targeting system shouldn't care about Jink saves). We also have the added effect of giving the Broadsides a secondary weapon it makes sense to use once in a while n

So there we go, two simple changes that would make the Tau much nastier on the battlefield.

The devilfish is far from the better transports right now. It's way over priced. It's over twice the cost of a rhino.

It has no fire points, and weapons with a horrid 18" range on a vehicle that is required to be 12" away to survive. So if you can shot something, they will shot back on their turn. ABSURD!

Chimeras and rhinos are better because they are cheaper and still have firepoints. Hello heavy weapons that fire on the move.

Vendettas and Nightscythes are better in ways I don't even need to mention.

At it's base cost you're getting 5 S5 shots at 18" and 2 of those shots don't get a BS increase from targeting array.

A good coversave is only going to be useful if the troops inside are actually threatening and the transport is worth taking down. I'd really ignore a devilfish until it was in range to shoot me and then take it down on my turn.

I wouldn't put much faith in them being able to fire 2 missiles at BS3 being able to help except situationally.

I like the idea of giving them missile pods, and that may make it worth taking at that point.

But firewarriors would still be overpriced at 9 points. Again, small squad sizes, no special weapons, terrible stat line, and their current transport is rather lackluster.

The bad stats and small squad size I can handle, it's the negative for playing Tau. But the price needs to be dropped severaly. It's either that or the transport needs to be awesome or they need special weapons.

I think taking the points down below 9pts / model would be a mistake. Let's look at the basic load-outs for a 10-man squad of...

IG:
5pts / model
BS 3, T3, SV 5+
Weapon: 24" Rapid Fire Str 3, AP -

Fire Warrior:
10pts / model
BS 3, T3, SV 4+
Weapon: 30" Rapid Fire Str 5, AP 5

Ignoring other army considerations for a moment, lets see how they perform against each other @ 24" range w/out cover (because this is the simplest scenario, we can do maths for others if you want ):

IG: 10 shots, 5 hits, 2.5 wounds, 1.25 casualties
FW: 10 shots, 5 hits, 4.17 wounds, 4.17 casualties

What I really think Tau need, reiterating what I said earlier:
- Slight point reductions (9pts / model instead of 10)
- Larger squads (>= 20 for FW)
- More options all around

So far we have only one codex release since 6th (Chaos Space Marines). It is loaded up with options all around. I'd love to see as many (or almost as many) options for weapon and gear loadouts for the Tau.

On the other hand, the Necrons have very few units with any options at all, and they are the last codex of 5th. So I guess we'll see.

jms40k wrote:

So far we have only one codex release since 6th (Chaos Space Marines). It is loaded up with options all around. I'd love to see as many (or almost as many) options for weapon and gear loadouts for the Tau.

On the other hand, the Necrons have very few units with any options at all, and they are the last codex of 5th. So I guess we'll see.

Different writer, different codex. Phil Kelly likes options (ref.: Dark Eldar), Ward doesn't that much (Necrons, but the GK 'dex wasn't really full with them either). Cruddace (the writer of the next Tau codex) is totally anti-options (and anti-variation).


On the Fire Warriors topic:
I support the Devilfish buff option and the bigger numbers option too. Say, a 60 points Devilfish would improve the Fire Warriors nicely, and 24 FW in a single squad is a terrifying unit for 240 points. Especially if they have Salvo 1/2 Pulse Rifles...

But you can't just compare base cost of Firewarriors against IG.

Yeah, the Firewarriors will cut down guard fairly easy. But guard also get amazing transports, larger squad size, heavy/special weapons, and better leadership.

So tell me. Would you play IG at 5 ppm if you could only take lasguns, squads of 8-16, no special weapons, and one transport with no firepoints and only a stormbolter. The transport will cost 55 points too.

 Savageconvoy wrote:

So tell me. Would you play IG at 5 ppm if you could only take lasguns, squads of 8-16, no special weapons, and one transport with no firepoints and only a stormbolter. The transport will cost 55 points too.

Sure. I would just put them into my amazing Vendettas and call it a deal .

Vendettas! the answer to everything. I'll just give firewarriors a Vendetta as a deciated transport and that'll be fine with me.

 Savageconvoy wrote:
But you can't just compare base cost of Firewarriors against IG.

Yeah, the Firewarriors will cut down guard fairly easy. But guard also get amazing transports, larger squad size, heavy/special weapons, and better leadership.

So tell me. Would you play IG at 5 ppm if you could only take lasguns, squads of 8-16, no special weapons, and one transport with no firepoints and only a stormbolter. The transport will cost 55 points too.

Pulse Rifles kill AV11 though.

6's to glance is not a major threat to AV11. It does get lucky and can cause some hurt. But guardsmen can get heavy weapons like lascannons and autocannons which can hurt AV11-13 more reliably and while inside an transport.

Firewarriors have a lot of negatives to compensate for their 2 positives. The gun and the 4+ save. Something needs to be changed. Options, transports, points, or numbers.

 AtoMaki wrote:

Different writer, different codex. Phil Kelly likes options (ref.: Dark Eldar), Ward doesn't that much (Necrons, but the GK 'dex wasn't really full with them either). Cruddace (the writer of the next Tau codex) is totally anti-options (and anti-variation).

Which is really quite sad really :( Options & variations are what make this game interesting, imho On the other hand, Cruddace did Tyranids and IG, which at least have a decent number of different and interesting units (whether they are all useful is up for debate). Are there others he's written?


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 Savageconvoy wrote:
Something needs to be changed. Options, transports, points, or numbers.

All of those. The problem is how do you avoid the ?

My favourite suggestion for Fire Warriors I've seen so far is including the Ui (and possibly a Bonding Knife) for free, so the basic squad is 5 Shas'la + 1 Shas'ui.

That's a start, but it's only really giving a mild leadership buff. The unit doesn't have orders or special rules like ATSKNF and such. And for only 3 points less than CSM.

jms40k wrote:

Which is really quite sad really :( Options & variations are what make this game interesting, imho On the other hand, Cruddace did Tyranids and IG, which at least have a decent number of different and interesting units (whether they are all useful is up for debate).

Most of them is just a version of another unit. The only completely new unit in the IG codex is the Psyker Battle Squad, while the Tyrannid Codex has the Tervigon, Hive Guard, Harpy and the Tyrannofex. So in the new tau codex, I guess we will have a handful of already-existing-unit variations (that could be easily options, but they are actually different units), some FW stuff (and variations for these) and a few totally new units.

 AtoMaki wrote:

jms40k wrote:

Which is really quite sad really :( Options & variations are what make this game interesting, imho On the other hand, Cruddace did Tyranids and IG, which at least have a decent number of different and interesting units (whether they are all useful is up for debate).

Most of them is just a version of another unit. The only completely new unit in the IG codex is the Psyker Battle Squad, while the Tyrannid Codex has the Tervigon, Hive Guard, Harpy and the Tyrannofex. So in the new tau codex, I guess we will have a handful of already-existing-unit variations (that could be easily options, but they are actually different units), some FW stuff (and variations for these) and a few totally new units.

Ah well, as long as he adds and doesn't take away options, that would be a good step

jms40k wrote:
[
Ah well, as long as he adds and doesn't take away options, that would be a good step

ROTFLcopter... He removed the IG doctrine system and the 'nid biomorph system for those new units .

Now I'm scared. We don't have any special rules that can be removed to fit new units.


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Except our markerlights. Which would render a vehicle and pathfinders useless.

 Savageconvoy wrote:
Now I'm scared. We don't have any special rules that can be removed to fit new units.

Nah, the Tau Codex will totally get the CSM treatment. So a 50$ WD update. Thats the best I can see from Cruddace.

I actually like CSM but only because they have a few fun units to add to my Tau as allies. This could end very badly for me.