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So i have been thinking, we all know that the Thunder warriors were physically superior to the Custodes and Astartes in size and strength and it took several Astartes to take down one Thunder warrior. So i was wondering why dint the emperor make the Custodes and Astartes as strong and as big as the Thunder warriors? was there a reason why he made them smaller and weaker? was it to balance out there genetic chemistry to make them more stable to ensure they dint degenerate like the thunder warriors did? or did he have other reasons for doing this because i would have though when he was striving to make the perfect super human warriors to protect humanity he would make them as big and as beastly as he could.

Also is there any major difference between Custodes and Astartes? I know that the Custodes were more reliant on solidarity and were trained for alot longer and only at one at a time unlike the mass training of Astartes. Is there anything genetically different about them?

Astartes were designed to be more stable. The Thunderwarriors had one purpose, to unite Terra as quickly as possable.

The Emperor intended Space Marines to be a permanant force, that may have had uses beyond military once the Galaxy was united.


Thunderwarriors have been described as not being completely in control. They could lose it and go bezerk. The Emperor may have wanted a more stable soldier for his armies.

Thunder Warriors were probably better then either Custodes or Astartes in 1 on 1 combat, but were overall a less effective fighting force due to their mental instability, lack of longevity, and so on.

Yup. they were quite literally techno-barbarians. Astartes were designed to be more calculating and methodical, rather than berzerkers.

Thunder warriors now stronger than Arstartes and Custodes? Since when?

 Redcruisair wrote:
Thunder warriors now stronger than Arstartes and Custodes? Since when?

Since forever.

Always have been. Most of the armor wasn't even powered, but still massive like power armor. It was all powered in the chest and arms for hand to hand combat on Terra.

While the Astartes are a pinnacle of bio-engineering, the Thunder Warriors were more like freaks of nature.

 Redcruisair wrote:
Thunder warriors now stronger than Arstartes and Custodes? Since when?

The Index Astartes articles of 2001ish set the precedent I believe. Note the "and Custodes" part is just speculative though.

burnaboy wrote:
So i have been thinking, we all know that the Thunder warriors were physically superior to the Custodes and Astartes in size and strength and it took several Astartes to take down one Thunder warrior. So i was wondering why dint the emperor make the Custodes and Astartes as strong and as big as the Thunder warriors? was there a reason why he made them smaller and weaker? was it to balance out there genetic chemistry to make them more stable to ensure they dint degenerate like the thunder warriors did? or did he have other reasons for doing this because i would have though when he was striving to make the perfect super human warriors to protect humanity he would make them as big and as beastly as he could.

Also is there any major difference between Custodes and Astartes? I know that the Custodes were more reliant on solidarity and were trained for alot longer and only at one at a time unlike the mass training of Astartes. Is there anything genetically different about them?

Well, Thunder Warriors weren't the best guys to leave sitting around. They were designed to unite Terra in one titanic war, crushing all opposition, with no other goal in mind. Now, after that was over, your talking about a bunch of super strong barbarians who have next to no diplomatic skills, and constantly want to go into a killing frenzy. Also, they had super short life spans. Now, after the war ended and he had some time to mess around with their genes, he made the more docile and cuddly Astartes and Costodes troops, and promptly wiped out his rather dangerous Thunder Warriors. Astartes can actually handle diplomacy without resorting to mass violence. Because they weren't running hot, so to speak, their bodies didn't burn out, and they became a long term investment. He was ultimately peaceful, and his goal was to make troops that could be reintegrated back into the civilian population after they had successfully reunited mankind throughout the galaxy.

???

I don't remember ever hearing this, I have the original history of SM armor article on the shelf but I think all it said was the first marks of armor had powered arms but unpowered legs. Nothing about them being superior to marines.

Is all this coming from some HH book?

Also I believe that custodes are physically/genetically different to astrates.

They have a similar relationship between themselves and the emperor as asterates do with their primarch.

 Cultiststeve wrote:
Also I believe that custodes are physically/genetically different to astrates.

They have a similar relationship between themselves and the emperor as asterates do with their primarch.

Yeah, the Custodes are completely different. They are created in test tubes, completely artificial beings. Designed to be the perfect bodyguards.

I think the closest thing to thunder warriors the Imperium has is the Flesh Tearers, the closest thing to ever be in the IoM would be the World Eaters. When I think of a thunder warrior my guess is that they would be roughly the size of an Astartes in Terminator Armor, but somewhat less bulky. That's how I think of them at least, I haven't seen any fluff that gives a definitive size but i haven't read it all.

 Cultiststeve wrote:
Also I believe that custodes are physically/genetically different to astrates.

They have a similar relationship between themselves and the emperor as asterates do with their primarch.

Well, not exactly. The Grey Knights carry the geneseed of the Emperor in all likelihood, Custodians, unlike Astartes, do not have a primogenitor, they are just made.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kid_Kyoto wrote:
???

I don't remember ever hearing this, I have the original history of SM armor article on the shelf but I think all it said was the first marks of armor had powered arms but unpowered legs. Nothing about them being superior to marines.

Is all this coming from some HH book?

The Outcast Dead from what I hear implies as much.

A World Eater whom managed to kill a Custodian barehanded, was no match for a single Thunder Warrior.

I don't know if there is anything in Index Astartes to say as much.

Its more like the GK geneseed used the Emperor as their Primarch. The Emperor doesn't have Geneseed.

 Void__Dragon wrote:


The Outcast Dead from what I hear implies as much.

A World Eater whom managed to kill a Custodian barehanded, was no match for a single Thunder Warrior.

I don't know if there is anything in Index Astartes to say as much.

I don’t think you could possibly claim the abilities of all Thunder warriors to be superior to those of the Astartes, just by basing your claim on Ghota’s performance in a single novel.

Shouldn’t the simple fact alone, that Ghota still lives in that timeline (The Outcast Dead) prove to us all, that this guy is an anomaly when it comes to the TW and therefore he makes for a bad example to use when we try to measure the TW’s standard abilities and compare them to those of the Astartes?

 Grey Templar wrote:


The Emperor intended Space Marines to be a permanant force

Did he now

 Redcruisair wrote:

 Void__Dragon wrote:


The Outcast Dead from what I hear implies as much.

A World Eater whom managed to kill a Custodian barehanded, was no match for a single Thunder Warrior.

I don't know if there is anything in Index Astartes to say as much.

I don’t think you could possibly claim the abilities of all Thunder warriors to be superior to those of the Astartes, just by basing your claim on Ghota’s performance in a single novel.

Shouldn’t the simple fact alone, that Ghota still lives in that timeline (The Outcast Dead) prove to us all, that this guy is an anomaly when it comes to the TW and therefore he makes for a bad example to use when we try to measure the TW’s standard abilities and compare them to those of the Astartes?

I second this, Bhabu Dhakal and Ghota are extremes in the case of Thunder Warriors. Not saying that they aren't better than Astartes but to paint all Thunder Warriors with the same brush is a bit blind. It's like saying that all Custodes are better than all Astartes which depending on your fluff could be deemed correct.

Astartes are of a more refined process for mass production where the Custodes are something more complicated. Who knows what the process of creating a Thunder Warrior was.

Some Thunder Warriors were early Space Marines

This first type of armour is now often referred to as 'Mark 1'. In fact this is the sort of armour worn by the technobarbarian warriors that dominated the Earth. When the Emperor began his conquest of the planet his retinue was equipped and armed in the same way as the troops of other warlords. The first Space Marines formed part of that retinue and were equipped with the same sort of armour as other warriors of the time.

The main part of the armour is the massive powered torso which encloses the chest and arms. Beneath the armoured chest plate coiled energy cables transmit power into the arms, effectively multiplying the wearer's fighting abilities three or four times over. During this period most fighting consisted of close combat, warriors preferring to grapple with each other rather than use long range weapons - the power of a warrior's chest and arms was therefore of paramount importance.

 Void__Dragon wrote:


The Outcast Dead from what I hear implies as much.

A World Eater whom managed to kill a Custodian barehanded, was no match for a single Thunder Warrior.

Yes, but that Custodian had battlefield wounds that severely impaired his reflexes, enough to make him not qualify for front-line duty (so apparently having this gimp guard the Imperium's most dangerous prisoners is a good idea). That same World Eater later on struggled against a human samurai/swordsman. That whole book is stupid and should just be ignored.

Speaking of stupid books that should be ignored, Deliverance Lost answers the OPs question by implying that the Emperor didn't really try very hard when he made the Astartes. He put all of his effort into creating the Primarch genomes, and after they were spirited away, created the Astartes from those strains as an afterthought. That's why a non-technically inclined Primarch and a few Magos-Biologis were able to drastically improve upon his design in just a few months. Fabius also has improved on the formula in many ways.

The Thunder Warriors were also never meant to be transported over massive distances to sustain centuries of warfare. I'd guess that the Astartes strike a balance between being hugely strong and being small enough to fit into vessels designed for humans.

I don't think that Thunder Warriors were ever bigger or stronger than a current Astartes, only more of a crude design and more brutish in combat.

All the violence of a Khorne berzerker/Flesh Tearer/ etc, but also none of the refinement that the Astartes program received during the Great Crusade.

There might be a relation between Thunder Warriors and Custodes. Little fluff-wise is know about both groups and the Imperial Fists basically lost their jobs after the Horus Heresy. Of course it's just speculation from me.

 Pilau Rice wrote:

 Redcruisair wrote:

 Void__Dragon wrote:


The Outcast Dead from what I hear implies as much.

A World Eater whom managed to kill a Custodian barehanded, was no match for a single Thunder Warrior.

I don't know if there is anything in Index Astartes to say as much.

I don’t think you could possibly claim the abilities of all Thunder warriors to be superior to those of the Astartes, just by basing your claim on Ghota’s performance in a single novel.

Shouldn’t the simple fact alone, that Ghota still lives in that timeline (The Outcast Dead) prove to us all, that this guy is an anomaly when it comes to the TW and therefore he makes for a bad example to use when we try to measure the TW’s standard abilities and compare them to those of the Astartes?

I second this, Bhabu Dhakal and Ghota are extremes in the case of Thunder Warriors. Not saying that they aren't better than Astartes but to paint all Thunder Warriors with the same brush is a bit blind. It's like saying that all Custodes are better than all Astartes which depending on your fluff could be deemed correct.

Astartes are of a more refined process for mass production where the Custodes are something more complicated. Who knows what the process of creating a Thunder Warrior was.

Some Thunder Warriors were early Space Marines

Its not just the Thunder Warriors in Outcast Dead that are suggested to be better fighters then their Astartes counterparts:

HH-Betrayal page 85 wrote: Afterwards he wrote of his expirences in his journals, and records more then once coming across the hulking carcass of an armored Thunder Warrior, often with three or four of his number in legiones Astartes dead around him.

I thought the origins of the Grey Knights' geneseed was a mystery?
Speculations have included the Emperor himself, and the 70-odd marines from the Ttaitor Legions who remained loyal? (ie, Garro et al) Regardless, as far as I know neither has ever been confirmed.

 Stonerhino wrote:
Its not just the Thunder Warriors in Outcast Dead that are suggested to be better fighters then their Astartes counterparts:

HH-Betrayal page 85 wrote: Afterwards he wrote of his expirences in his journals, and records more then once coming across the hulking carcass of an armored Thunder Warrior, often with three or four of his number in legiones Astartes dead around him.

More than once does not equate to all though, it all depends on circumstance.

Bran Dawri wrote:
I thought the origins of the Grey Knights' geneseed was a mystery?
Speculations have included the Emperor himself, and the 70-odd marines from the Ttaitor Legions who remained loyal? (ie, Garro et al) Regardless, as far as I know neither has ever been confirmed.

The geneseed origin is pretty much openly said in the new GK codex, the geneseed is most likely derived from the Emperor's own genes.

As to the Loyalists from the traitor legions, none of their geneseed was carried over into the Gry Knights, the codex says that the Grey Knights used a completely new geneseed and based on fluff and setting it is very unlikely that any of the loyalist marines would still be carrying progenoid glands.

Bran Dawri wrote:
I thought the origins of the Grey Knights' geneseed was a mystery?
Speculations have included the Emperor himself, and the 70-odd marines from the Ttaitor Legions who remained loyal? (ie, Garro et al) Regardless, as far as I know neither has ever been confirmed.

The new GK codex pretty much comes out and says "Hey, their geneseed is based on the Emperor, so y'all are screwed!"

IDK, An Emperor Geneseed might not be all that, under all the psyker stuff he was human. You more or less end up with the same thing every Sm is based off of.

Given the Primarchs were directly based on the Emperor I would say its definitly something special.

The geneseed had actually existed for a while when the GKs were actually formed. The Emperor had obviously been planning on making a new strain of Marines for some purpose.

 Pilau Rice wrote:

 Stonerhino wrote:
Its not just the Thunder Warriors in Outcast Dead that are suggested to be better fighters then their Astartes counterparts:

HH-Betrayal page 85 wrote: Afterwards he wrote of his expirences in his journals, and records more then once coming across the hulking carcass of an armored Thunder Warrior, often with three or four of his number in legiones Astartes dead around him.

More than once does not equate to all though, it all depends on circumstance.

The implications of the passage are clear, and there is no text to dictate that Astartes were on level with Thunder Warriors, in that book at least.

 Grey Templar wrote:
Given the Primarchs were directly based on the Emperor I would say its definitly something special.

The geneseed had actually existed for a while when the GKs were actually formed. The Emperor had obviously been planning on making a new strain of Marines for some purpose.

What it says to me is...they are like every other SM chapter. They have a common gen ancestor. Nothing more really,maybe less honestly. The Primarchs were greater then himself, they were creation's spawned at his height with some help of the Gods. The SM geneseed while based upon that of the Primarchs are much lesser. They were a back up. The Grey Knight Geneseed came at a time when the Big E was most likely dead, made by folks that were not him. Sure it may have used his notes or something, but I am pretty sure he was on the throne ( had been since the start of the heresy) when the Grey Knight Geneseed came into being. It most likely came i 2nd or 3rd generation of the Knights as it seems likely the first Knights where all recruits from fallen legions.

The Emperor was human in form. He had unknown amounts of psyker power, but his body was that of a man. Saying the Geneseed was made from him, is a moral thing as in the end all geneseeds are made from him.