Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 Void__Dragon wrote:

 Pilau Rice wrote:

 Stonerhino wrote:
Its not just the Thunder Warriors in Outcast Dead that are suggested to be better fighters then their Astartes counterparts:

HH-Betrayal page 85 wrote: Afterwards he wrote of his expirences in his journals, and records more then once coming across the hulking carcass of an armored Thunder Warrior, often with three or four of his number in legiones Astartes dead around him.

More than once does not equate to all though, it all depends on circumstance.

The implications of the passage are clear, and there is no text to dictate that Astartes were on level with Thunder Warriors, in that book at least.

Everything is that cut and dry in the 40k back story and there are no instances of half truths, false intentions and contradictions?

 Hunterindarkness wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
Given the Primarchs were directly based on the Emperor I would say its definitly something special.

The geneseed had actually existed for a while when the GKs were actually formed. The Emperor had obviously been planning on making a new strain of Marines for some purpose.

What it says to me is...they are like every other SM chapter. They have a common gen ancestor. Nothing more really,maybe less honestly. The Primarchs were greater then himself, they were creation's spawned at his height with some help of the Gods. The SM geneseed while based upon that of the Primarchs are much lesser. They were a back up. The Grey Knight Geneseed came at a time when the Big E was most likely dead, made by folks that were not him. Sure it may have used his notes or something, but I am pretty sure he was on the throne ( had been since the start of the heresy) when the Grey Knight Geneseed came into being. It most likely came i 2nd or 3rd generation of the Knights as it seems likely the first Knights where all recruits from fallen legions.

Didn't Malcador move Titan into the warp in the later days of the Heresy or something like that? Maybe all the Geneseed of the Grey Knights was removed during this time and new Geneseed implanted, I don't know if anything like that is possible or not.

 Pilau Rice wrote:


Didn't Malcador move Titan into the warp in the later days of the Heresy or something like that? Maybe all the Geneseed of the Grey Knights was removed during this time and new Geneseed implanted, I don't know if anything like that is possible or not.

while I am not the best at SM lore, I am pretty sure removing a geneseed is death. And you really can not just replace one, but rather they are the byproduct of the process of making one a Sm. I think this idea its a new geneseed is merely propaganda. I mean they can not go around saying they are really a hogpog of Traitorous Marine geneseeds now can they? Even though, honestly those would be best for the knights as they have shown a degree of resistance to chaos.

 Hunterindarkness wrote:

 Pilau Rice wrote:


Didn't Malcador move Titan into the warp in the later days of the Heresy or something like that? Maybe all the Geneseed of the Grey Knights was removed during this time and new Geneseed implanted, I don't know if anything like that is possible or not.

while I am not the best at SM lore, I am pretty sure removing a geneseed is death. And you really can not just replace one, but rather they are the byproduct of the process of making one a Sm. I think this idea its a new geneseed is merely propaganda. I mean they can not go around saying they are really a hogpog of Traitorous Marine geneseeds now can they? Even though, honestly those would be best for the knights as they have shown a degree of resistance to chaos.

Certain Geneseed definitely, like the Black Carapace I would assume, but what of removing the progenoids and replacing these with another set, would that make any changing effect to the geneseed over present over time, sort of re wiring what was already there

The fact that the Emperor lived for thousands upon thousands of years suggests he was a bit more than 'just a man'


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Pilau Rice wrote:

 Hunterindarkness wrote:

 Pilau Rice wrote:


Didn't Malcador move Titan into the warp in the later days of the Heresy or something like that? Maybe all the Geneseed of the Grey Knights was removed during this time and new Geneseed implanted, I don't know if anything like that is possible or not.

while I am not the best at SM lore, I am pretty sure removing a geneseed is death. And you really can not just replace one, but rather they are the byproduct of the process of making one a Sm. I think this idea its a new geneseed is merely propaganda. I mean they can not go around saying they are really a hogpog of Traitorous Marine geneseeds now can they? Even though, honestly those would be best for the knights as they have shown a degree of resistance to chaos.

Certain Geneseed definitely, like the Black Carapace I would assume, but what of removing the progenoids and replacing these with another set, would that make any changing effect to the geneseed over present over time, sort of re wiring what was already there

Geneseed is made from the harvested progeniod gland, this gland, once mature can easily be removed before death (it is just that over the 10,000 years after the heresy, ritual has taken over from procedure and the second progeniod gland is removed after a marine can no longer serve, e.i. death).

Recruits are not implanted with geneseed they are implanted with organs, so swapping a marine's organs would be impossible.

 BluntmanDC wrote:

Geneseed is made from the harvested progeniod gland, this gland, once mature can easily be removed before death (it is just that over the 10,000 years after the heresy, ritual has taken over from procedure and the second progeniod gland is removed after a marine can no longer serve, e.i. death).

Recruits are not implanted with geneseed they are implanted with organs, so swapping a marine's organs would be impossible.

I see what you are getting at but there are 19 different geneseeds implanted into an aspirant which turns them into a Space Marine.

Phase 18 is the Progenoid

Phase 18 - Progenoids. There are two of these glands, one situated in the neck, the other deep within the chest cavity. These glands are important to the survival of the Marine's Chapter. Each organ grows within the Marine, absorbing hormonal stimuli and genetic material from the other implants. After five years, the neck gland is mature and ready for removal. After ten years, the chest gland becomes mature and is also ready for removal. A gland may be removed any time after it has matured

What I am asking is if the Glands have matured in the early Grey Knights and have been removed, could new ones, being the specific Grey Knight Progenoid be reimplanted to say, influence the other organs to mould to what is required of a Grey Knight.

Here's a thought, so the codex says that the Grey Knights Geneseed comes from the Emperor, now all of the Primarch material came from the Emperor also, so in a way all geneseed comes from the Emperor. Now ..

Gene-seeds can be stored indefinitely under suitable conditions.

Did the Emperor leave his own genetic material laying around or is the Grey Knights geneseed left over from somewhere else, say, from a Primarch that wasn't around anymore? No? Oh well, just a thought

 Pilau Rice wrote:


Certain Geneseed definitely, like the Black Carapace I would assume, but what of removing the progenoids and replacing these with another set, would that make any changing effect to the geneseed over present over time, sort of re wiring what was already there

what I do not get is why, the Emperor was in no place to make a new set, he was busy and the ones currently in the group already showed they were the best resistant of each of their groups. Like I said, I am calling bull on the idea of "New Geneseeds" it was simply something they told to the new recruits as in 40k faith is power. If you think the Big E himself is apart of you, that itself can act as a kind of resistance. To me it simply does not fit within the timeline.

I'm certain the Grey Knights recruited among existing Marines kept their geneseed as is. The ensuing Chapter was probably created from a mixture of these geneseeds (and possibly supplemented with a reserve of "pure" geneseed kept for just such a rainy day).

No, they simply would not have kept the geneseed of marines recruited from other chapters and would have only used the geneseed that contained the Emperor's Gift.

 Grey Templar wrote:
No, they simply would not have kept the geneseed of marines recruited from other chapters and would have only used the geneseed that contained the Emperor's Gift.

I am still saying that "gift" was pure BS, it never really happened as the time line simply does not line up to give the Emperor years to make a whole new set of Geneseeds. I think like many things to do with the Grey Knights, what they are taught and the truth are often not the same thing.

 Hunterindarkness wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
No, they simply would not have kept the geneseed of marines recruited from other chapters and would have only used the geneseed that contained the Emperor's Gift.

I am still saying that "gift" was pure BS, it never really happened as the time line simply does not line up to give the Emperor years to make a whole new set of Geneseeds. I think like many things to do with the Grey Knights, what they are taught and the truth are often not the same thing.

How do you know he wasn't making these geneseeds with all the time he had prior to the Heresy?

The Emperor's Gift is most definitly not BS.

Still gonna call it BS, it simply does not fit. His Geneseeds came from his mistakes with his first weapons. Its "real" because they think it is, no more reason. The Emperor did not make "Back up " genseeds. He was busy doing something else( the webway) and most likely would have did the same thing with the SM he did with the thunder warriors. they were tools made to do a single job.

The Knights were never part of his plan, they are something that got thrown together at the last moment after it had hit the fan, when he was more or less confined to the throne. So no I do not think the idea of him making a Geneseed just for them to be real.

The geneseed was stated as having been created ahead of time. It was a plan that was altered for sure, but that geneseed was intended for something.

I think the Emperor was planning on creating a force of Psychic space marines to help him clear the Webway out.

The Grey Knights was a direct result of the horus Heresy, not the original plan Grey Templar. Also I suspect part of the geneseed came from the 8 Astartes which originally founded the chapter as well, due to Empy's genetics not being a good idea to implant in humans. More than 50% failure-rate tells a person that much.

I was thinking the genseed did not make them psykers, they recruit pykers. To each his own I guess, I do not buy it. Not the first thing in 40k that did not fit the setting or contradicted itself.

Of course it doesn't make them psykers, but it was likely specifically designed with Psykers in mind.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Beaviz81 wrote:
The Grey Knights was a direct result of the horus Heresy, not the original plan Grey Templar. Also I suspect part of the geneseed came from the 8 Astartes which originally founded the chapter as well, due to Empy's genetics not being a good idea to implant in humans. More than 50% failure-rate tells a person that much.

As they are now? Yes,

But their geneseed was intended for something else. Some other greater plan. And it was probably just the sort of thing that an organization needed to fight daemons would need.

Most likely the Emperor was planning on creating a secret Daemon Hunting force of Marines that, due to events, Malcador was forced to accelerate and alter.

 Hunterindarkness wrote:

what I do not get is why, the Emperor was in no place to make a new set, he was busy and the ones currently in the group already showed they were the best resistant of each of their groups.

Which is kinda what I am getting at with my tongue in cheek comment, maybe he had a spare set after a Primarch, I don't know, went awol?

Maybe the Geneseed was an early version of what the Thousand Sons should have been, but where they became psykers due to the geneseend, this geneseed needed to be implanted in a psyker to take effect and the reason why the Legion became Lost?

In other words, ya know it was just the genseeds from non traitor thousand sons

 Hunterindarkness wrote:
In other words, ya know it was just the genseeds from non traitor thousand sons

I'm more thinking along the lines of one of the Primarchs we don't know anything about

I was just wondering if their is good book that describes the origin and creation of the grey knights?

 Pilau Rice wrote:

 Hunterindarkness wrote:
In other words, ya know it was just the genseeds from non traitor thousand sons

I'm more thinking along the lines of one of the Primarchs we don't know anything about

No, those failed. He did not have much uses for his failed projects. I do not think he meant the SM to outlast his crusades, not in there current capacity as they are not a peace keeping force. No they use the Geneseends they started with, but whitewash the background. Belief is often fact in 40k and the Grey knights themselves often do not know where the geneseed comes from. They have hints and are told maybe this or maybe that, but as I said before they can not go around saying the truth as it would get them hunted.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 RonanSAS wrote:
I was just wondering if their is good book that describes the origin and creation of the grey knights?

The grey knights Codex, which seems to not be well liked and the HH books are about it. They seem to contradict themselves, but hey its 40k.

 Hunterindarkness wrote:

 Pilau Rice wrote:

 Hunterindarkness wrote:
In other words, ya know it was just the genseeds from non traitor thousand sons

I'm more thinking along the lines of one of the Primarchs we don't know anything about

No, those failed. He did not have much uses for his failed projects. I do not think he meant the SM to outlast his crusades, not in there current capacity as they are not a peace keeping force. No they use the Geneseends they started with, but whitewash the background. Belief is often fact in 40k and the Grey knights themselves often do not know where the geneseed comes from. They have hints and are told maybe this or maybe that, but as I said before they can not go around saying the truth as it would get them hunted.

How do you know they failed? Maybe they surpassed the Emperors design in all that he wanted and that's why they became lost, because he had no option but to erase them from history. Essentially he would have a spare deck to use one that he might have improved upon.

 Pilau Rice wrote:


How do you know they failed? Maybe they surpassed the Emperors design in all that he wanted and that's why they became lost, because he had no option but to erase them from history. Essentially he would have a spare deck to use one that he might have improved upon.

Because all 18 of the others failed in one way or another. He himself doomed his own project. Besides if ya look at how the man did things, he always planned to replace them. SM were a stop gap, not his plan from the word go.

 Hunterindarkness wrote:

 Pilau Rice wrote:


How do you know they failed? Maybe they surpassed the Emperors design in all that he wanted and that's why they became lost, because he had no option but to erase them from history. Essentially he would have a spare deck to use one that he might have improved upon.

Because all 18 of the others failed in one way or another. He himself doomed his own project. Besides if ya look at how the man did things, he always planned to replace them. SM were a stop gap, not his plan from the word go.

Sorry to jump in, but I'm curious as to the reasoning behind this. What makes you say that the marines were a stop-gap?

 Hunterindarkness wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
No, they simply would not have kept the geneseed of marines recruited from other chapters and would have only used the geneseed that contained the Emperor's Gift.

I am still saying that "gift" was pure BS, it never really happened as the time line simply does not line up to give the Emperor years to make a whole new set of Geneseeds. I think like many things to do with the Grey Knights, what they are taught and the truth are often not the same thing.

I think I agree with this. It would also be a poor repayment to the loyalists that form the initial council if they couldn't pass on their heritage via geneseed. I think the Grey Knights carrying on the positive attributes of those Marines that stayed loyal to the Emperor even in the face of their own Primarch, is far more interesting than some magical MacGuffin super geneseed suddenly materializing out of nowhere. The Emperor is portrayed as ridiculously busy at this time, considering he won't stop his webway project to even direct the war against his rebellious son, I don't think he would put in on the backburner to tinker around with more geneseed.

 Hunterindarkness wrote:

 Pilau Rice wrote:


How do you know they failed? Maybe they surpassed the Emperors design in all that he wanted and that's why they became lost, because he had no option but to erase them from history. Essentially he would have a spare deck to use one that he might have improved upon.

Because all 18 of the others failed in one way or another. He himself doomed his own project. Besides if ya look at how the man did things, he always planned to replace them. SM were a stop gap, not his plan from the word go.

I've said as much myself, that the Astartes are a measure until mankind can defend itself. But perhaps he gave the others another shot after working out the kinks and the Grey Knights were the outcome.

 Pilau Rice wrote:

 BluntmanDC wrote:

Geneseed is made from the harvested progeniod gland, this gland, once mature can easily be removed before death (it is just that over the 10,000 years after the heresy, ritual has taken over from procedure and the second progeniod gland is removed after a marine can no longer serve, e.i. death).

Recruits are not implanted with geneseed they are implanted with organs, so swapping a marine's organs would be impossible.

I see what you are getting at but there are 19 different geneseeds implanted into an aspirant which turns them into a Space Marine.

No an asprant is implanted with 19 organs made from 1 geneseed. A geneseed is a cultured mature progeniod gland.

Phase 18 is the Progenoid

Phase 18 - Progenoids. There are two of these glands, one situated in the neck, the other deep within the chest cavity. These glands are important to the survival of the Marine's Chapter. Each organ grows within the Marine, absorbing hormonal stimuli and genetic material from the other implants. After five years, the neck gland is mature and ready for removal. After ten years, the chest gland becomes mature and is also ready for removal. A gland may be removed any time after it has matured

What I am asking is if the Glands have matured in the early Grey Knights and have been removed, could new ones, being the specific Grey Knight Progenoid be reimplanted to say, influence the other organs to mould to what is required of a Grey Knight.

As stated in the exert, progeniod glands do not ifluence, they are influenced. All it would do by implanting more progeniod glands would create more mature geneseed based onnthe original marine's heratige. And all the while you would have wasted a cultured geneseed that could be used to make another marine. All this method would do would make the Grey Knights have no single genestock.

Here's a thought, so the codex says that the Grey Knights Geneseed comes from the Emperor, now all of the Primarch material came from the Emperor also, so in a way all geneseed comes from the Emperor.

That is like saying all dogs desecended from wolves so a husky is the same as a daschund, the primarchs were unique creations based on gene manipulation (just look at the fact that all the primarchs were vastly different.) so even with the same origingeneseed based on the emperor would different that a geneseed based on a primarch.

 Pilau Rice wrote:

 Hunterindarkness wrote:

 Pilau Rice wrote:


How do you know they failed? Maybe they surpassed the Emperors design in all that he wanted and that's why they became lost, because he had no option but to erase them from history. Essentially he would have a spare deck to use one that he might have improved upon.

Because all 18 of the others failed in one way or another. He himself doomed his own project. Besides if ya look at how the man did things, he always planned to replace them. SM were a stop gap, not his plan from the word go.

I've said as much myself, that the Astartes are a measure until mankind can defend itself. But perhaps he gave the others another shot after working out the kinks and the Grey Knights were the outcome.

That simply makes no sense at all given his actions and the setting. He did not hand off projects, hell the whole HH came about because he treated everyone like mushrooms. He did not hand off data, he did not share plans and he never seemed to keep someone untouched "just in case". His flaw was he played the long game, but he played it all for nothing with no backup plans. The SM were not the plan, they were a fall back once his plan went sideways. He really could not make a whole new set as he could not make another Primarch, which is what each Genseed was based upon.

Nothing I have seen makes the idea of them having "New" geneseeds nothing more then a fairy tale they tell themselves and everyone else to hide the fact they are descended from the traitor legions.

My assessment.

The ThunderWarriors were the Emperors attempt using the technology of the time to create super soldiers. Probably built in much the same way as the Space Marines using an existing host and some kind of genetic therapy.

If you believe intimations made by a certain HH novel, that it required a bargain between the Emperor and the Chaos Powers to create the Primarchs. The Emperor could not build them alone and in my general assessment had to include non-technological intervention by the Chaos powers to make it happen. A radical thought, but what could they have contributed?

The Space Marines were designed with the "leftovers" of that technology. The Emperor could not create an army of Primarchs and so fine-tuned the ThunderWarrior technology of genetic therapy to make the Marines. His radical change, of course, was the creation of the Progenoid glands.

The Custodes were created sometime after the creation of the Primarchs. I have often thought they might have been created at the same time beyond the watchful eye of the chaos powers. They seem to be created in the same way and exhibit the individualism and general superior abilities along those lines, but because the Emperor didn't have the assistance he did with the Primarchs, could only create a few of them.

I think it is very fitting that it required the assistance of the Chaos gods to create the beings we know as the Primarchs. With the Marines and the Custodes being but very, very pale reflections of those figures.

Just some thoughts.

Since he employed warp magic to create the primarchs(?) since the sm come from them do people think that was a window for the chaos gods to get to them and make them fall to coruption?

Not a hijack just an earlier post made me curious.

Also the Emp did intend the sm as a stop gap, the human race was/is becoming more pychic and he needed the sm till mankind were ready like what was earlier.

Pretty sure Custodes came first, then Thunder warriors then SM's. Unlike Thunder warriors or SM, Custodes are vat grown, much like the Primarches, but creating them was a slow process.