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 BluntmanDC wrote:


No an asprant is implanted with 19 organs made from 1 geneseed. A geneseed is a cultured mature progeniod gland.

From the Index Astartes article Rites of Inititation

There are nineteen varieties of gene-seed corresponding to the nineteen different superhuman organs that are surgically implanted into a Space Marine.

 BluntmanDC wrote:

As stated in the exert, progeniod glands do not ifluence, they are influenced. All it would do by implanting more progeniod glands would create more mature geneseed based onnthe original marine's heratige. And all the while you would have wasted a cultured geneseed that could be used to make another marine. All this method would do would make the Grey Knights have no single genestock.

Which is true, but could the Emperor not amend these to have a different effect, to bring all the gene-seed in line with the template that the progenoids have embedded in them. Why would you want to use the progenoids from the marines that were traitors again anyway? You would want them to become something more i.e the Grey Knights. It's all just hypothesis, I'm not saying that this what happened, just firing off ideas.

 BluntmanDC wrote:

That is like saying all dogs desecended from wolves so a husky is the same as a daschund, the primarchs were unique creations based on gene manipulation (just look at the fact that all the primarchs were vastly different.) so even with the same origingeneseed based on the emperor would different that a geneseed based on a primarch.

True again, but that doesn't change the fact that all did come from the Emperor. I'm not saying that there aren't any differences at all, just that they were manipulated by the Emperor to be something else.

 Hunterindarkness wrote:


That simply makes no sense at all given his actions and the setting. He did not hand off projects, hell the whole HH came about because he treated everyone like mushrooms. He did not hand off data, he did not share plans and he never seemed to keep someone untouched "just in case". His flaw was he played the long game, but he played it all for nothing with no backup plans. The SM were not the plan, they were a fall back once his plan went sideways. He really could not make a whole new set as he could not make another Primarch, which is what each Genseed was based upon.

Nothing I have seen makes the idea of them having "New" geneseeds nothing more then a fairy tale they tell themselves and everyone else to hide the fact they are descended from the traitor legions.

I think we're missing each others points here as I am confused by your reply.

We know the Emperor created the Thunder Warriors to conquer Terra to unify it for his and mankinds benefit, possibly he did with the same for the Astartes, why create the Primarchs then. Because without the Primarchs he wouldn't have the template. Perhaps as with the Thunder Warriors, once the Astartes had served their purpose he would discard these as well.

I'm not sure about your comment about handing off projects, sorry.

He shared plans on a need to know basis, which was his biggest mistake it would seem. He even let Corax have the majority of the Primarch data to rebuild his legion.

Not sure about your untouched comment either, again, sorry.

I do not agree with you at all about the Astartes being the fall back, look what happened after all.

I was being ambiguous about the Geneseed thinking that you might get my train of thought. I am not saying that he made this new Geneseed, but he had some laying around from a Legion that was not there anymore, one that no longer had a Primarch or required the use of it any more.

The issue I have with the Geneseed being from Traitors still is that I don't believe you would want anyone having it due to the risk it poses.

 Omegus wrote:

 Hunterindarkness wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
No, they simply would not have kept the geneseed of marines recruited from other chapters and would have only used the geneseed that contained the Emperor's Gift.

I am still saying that "gift" was pure BS, it never really happened as the time line simply does not line up to give the Emperor years to make a whole new set of Geneseeds. I think like many things to do with the Grey Knights, what they are taught and the truth are often not the same thing.

I think I agree with this. It would also be a poor repayment to the loyalists that form the initial council if they couldn't pass on their heritage via geneseed. I think the Grey Knights carrying on the positive attributes of those Marines that stayed loyal to the Emperor even in the face of their own Primarch, is far more interesting than some magical MacGuffin super geneseed suddenly materializing out of nowhere. The Emperor is portrayed as ridiculously busy at this time, considering he won't stop his webway project to even direct the war against his rebellious son, I don't think he would put in on the backburner to tinker around with more geneseed.

What if the Geneseed used to make Grey Knights is the one that Babu Dhakal creates at the end of Outcast Dead??? ie a hybrid Thunder Warrior/ Space Marine geneseed. Thunder Warriors appear to be more warp resistant then Space Marines. Ghota, exclaims how the navigator's eye can't effect him. Even is that statement is not proven it is still important because he already knew that she had used her eye on people before.

Disclaimer:
Not my idea but I think it fits and actually gives the creation of "Outcast Dead" a reason.

 Pilau Rice wrote:

The issue I have with the Geneseed being from Traitors still is that I don't believe you would want anyone having it due to the risk it poses.

Yest those were with out a dought the most Chaos resistant of all geneseends. They alone out of their whole legions rejected it.Kinda why they got used to form the knights. I am at a lose as why you would take tried and true geneseeds that you know have resisted chaos to try an new untested one. It simply makes no sense, not for the Emperor his actions or the time line. It simply does not fit.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Stonerhino wrote:
What if the Geneseed used to make Grey Knights is the one that Babu Dhakal creates at the end of Outcast Dead??? ie a hybrid Thunder Warrior/ Space Marine geneseed. Thunder Warriors appear to be more warp resistant then Space Marines. Ghota, exclaims how the navigator's eye can't effect him. Even is that statement is not proven it is still important because he already knew that she had used her eye on people before.

Disclaimer:
Not my idea but I think it fits and actually gives the creation of "Outcast Dead" a reason.

Never read that, but it seems to me based on all the stuff we have of the Thunder warriors they are prime meat for the Blood god. They were mentally unstable and pron to rage and killing anything that moved. Besides the Sm are thunder warrior 2.0

The Astartes are an updated warrior compared to Thunder Warriors. That being said the Thunder Warriors had advantages over Astartes whe you only consider combat. Its heavely hinted at that they where also very resistant to psychic attacks. Something that is very important when fighting post Old Night warlords on Terra. Astartes are much more stable mentally and genetically. It is the the later that is given as a reason as to one reason the Big E got rid of the Thunder Warriors and instead used the Astartes during the Great Crusade.

****Huge Outcast Dead Spoiler alert****
Grey Knights differ from normal Space Marines in many important ways. And it would be interesting to find out that that is because their Geneseed is based on a Thunder Warrior Astarte hybrid. Basically an Astarte with physical strength, toughness, fighting ability and psychic defence of a Thunder Warrior. While still maintaining the genetic and mental stability of an Astarte.

It could also explain why the Grey Knights are reserved for the hardest fighting against the toughest enemies.

Grey Knights are not reserved for fighting the toughest enemies, they are reserved for fighting the enemy they are specialized against. If anything, the Minotaurs fit the Thunder Warrior template more.

But I don't think Ghota would repay the Emperor's betrayal with suddenly creating a new hybrid chapter for him. And nothing indicates that the Grey Knights are physically superior to other Astartes (in fact, against many traditional enemies they may even be worse off due to lack of experience).

As for not using traitor geneseed, if the implication is that the geneseed is influenced by its host as much as it shapes him, then this is the absolutely best geneseed to use. These guys proved unshakeable loyalty to the Emperor, above all else, even in defiance of their Primarchs. It doesn't get more hardcore than that.

I think the World Eaters were meant to replace the thunder warriors, but now i would say the closest is maybe the flesh tearers.
Grey knights are astartes who are trained to almost exclusively fight daemons and daemonic cults, so they cant be partially thunder warriors who would have skill against virtually every opponent. Grey knights are not made to fight the imperiums toughest enemies, they are made to fight deamons.

The World Eaters were not designed to replace the Thunder Warriors, considering they were first named the War Hounds and used pretty standard combat doctrines. I imagine when the Legions were initially created, they were basically ultramarines with mild variations based on their gene-seed. They didn't really start taking on the individual characteristics we are familiar with until after being reunited with their gene-sires.

 Omegus wrote:
Grey Knights are not reserved for fighting the toughest enemies, they are reserved for fighting the enemy they are specialized against. If anything, the Minotaurs fit the Thunder Warrior template more.

But I don't think Ghota would repay the Emperor's betrayal with suddenly creating a new hybrid chapter for him. And nothing indicates that the Grey Knights are physically superior to other Astartes (in fact, against many traditional enemies they may even be worse off due to lack of experience).

As for not using traitor geneseed, if the implication is that the geneseed is influenced by its host as much as it shapes him, then this is the absolutely best geneseed to use. These guys proved unshakeable loyalty to the Emperor, above all else, even in defiance of their Primarchs. It doesn't get more hardcore than that.

Astartes fight Daemons when things go bad. The Grey Knights are not called in for every Daemonic incursion. Only the strongest ones, like the first battle of Armegeddon for example.

The only successfull genetic RnR going on was the Raven Guard and Babu Dhakal.

 Omegus wrote:
The World Eaters were not designed to replace the Thunder Warriors, considering they were first named the War Hounds and used pretty standard combat doctrines. I imagine when the Legions were initially created, they were basically ultramarines with mild variations based on their gene-seed. They didn't really start taking on the individual characteristics we are familiar with until after being reunited with their gene-sires.

Horus Heresy: Betrayal seems to indicate that the World Eaters were always psycho ragemonsters, just to a lesser extent.

HH: Betrayal, actually makes it seem like that was done on purpose rather then a result of their geneseed. The Emperor selected "Psycho ragemonster" recruits for them. There by creating extra amoral hypno inducted killers.

It would be interesting to find out that the Emperor planned for the World Eaters to be used as his anti-Legion Legion untill he discovered how "broken" Angron was. It could explain why they were not sent against the Thousand Sons.

 Stonerhino wrote:
HH: Betrayal, actually makes it seem like that was done on purpose rather then a result of their geneseed. The Emperor selected "Psycho ragemonster" recruits for them. There by creating extra amoral hypno inducted killers.

It would be interesting to find out that the Emperor planned for the World Eaters to be used as his anti-Legion Legion untill he discovered how "broken" Angron was. It could explain why they were not sent against the Thousand Sons.

I do not think the Emperor made the world eaters that way. They took ques from Angron, trying to emulate him and if the HH is to be believed even used rage inducing implants to try and be more like him.

Kharn renamed the legion, not Angron.

 Hunterindarkness wrote:

 Pilau Rice wrote:

The issue I have with the Geneseed being from Traitors still is that I don't believe you would want anyone having it due to the risk it poses.

Yest those were with out a dought the most Chaos resistant of all geneseends. They alone out of their whole legions rejected it.Kinda why they got used to form the knights. I am at a lose as why you would take tried and true geneseeds that you know have resisted chaos to try an new untested one. It simply makes no sense, not for the Emperor his actions or the time line. It simply does not fit.

Because it's the person, not just the Geneseed. If Garro for example was like any other Death Guard, excluding the other 69 I think, he would just be another traitor.

 Omegus wrote:
Kharn renamed the legion, not Angron.

After De'shea Kharn gives Angron the idea if I recall

 Pilau Rice wrote:

 Hunterindarkness wrote:

 Pilau Rice wrote:

The issue I have with the Geneseed being from Traitors still is that I don't believe you would want anyone having it due to the risk it poses.

Yest those were with out a dought the most Chaos resistant of all geneseends. They alone out of their whole legions rejected it.Kinda why they got used to form the knights. I am at a lose as why you would take tried and true geneseeds that you know have resisted chaos to try an new untested one. It simply makes no sense, not for the Emperor his actions or the time line. It simply does not fit.

Because it's the person, not just the Geneseed. If Garro for example was like any other Death Guard, excluding the other 69 I think, he would just be another traitor.

Soooooo...the genseed has zero to do with chaos resistance. In other words there is no reason not to use the ones they came with as new ones are no more resistant.

You are not helping your argument here man.

 Hunterindarkness wrote:

 Pilau Rice wrote:

 Hunterindarkness wrote:

 Pilau Rice wrote:

The issue I have with the Geneseed being from Traitors still is that I don't believe you would want anyone having it due to the risk it poses.

Yest those were with out a dought the most Chaos resistant of all geneseends. They alone out of their whole legions rejected it.Kinda why they got used to form the knights. I am at a lose as why you would take tried and true geneseeds that you know have resisted chaos to try an new untested one. It simply makes no sense, not for the Emperor his actions or the time line. It simply does not fit.

Because it's the person, not just the Geneseed. If Garro for example was like any other Death Guard, excluding the other 69 I think, he would just be another traitor.

Soooooo...the genseed has zero to do with chaos resistance. In other words there is no reason not to use the ones they came with as new ones are no more resistant.

You are not helping your argument here man.

Argument, it's entirely theory. I don't honestly believe the Grey Knights have super duper Geneseed made from that of one of the Lost Legions, I am just shooting off ideas of how it might be possible.

It's likely that the Geneseed was one of the reasons for the fall of the Legions, Garro's and the others might have been a mutation in itself or more than likely, his faith in the Emperor, rather than his Primarch, was stronger.

IA: CODEX ASTARTES The Horus Heresy had revealed weaknesses in the geneseed of several Space Marine Legions which had been exaggerated by the accelerated zygote harvesting techniques needed to keep the huge Space Marine Legions up to strength. The powers of Chaos exploited this growing physical and mental corruption to turn Horus’s troops against the Emperor.

Lets see what the sources have to say, shall we:

Analysis is the bane of conviction.

Be strong in your ignorance.

Intellect is a mask for traitors

Reason begets doubt; Doubt begets heresy.

You are not required to think, only to act

(diverse "thoughts of the day")

I think there is a pattern. I will now inform the ordo hereticus of your names.

amudkipz wrote:
I think the World Eaters were meant to replace the thunder warriors, but now i would say the closest is maybe the flesh tearers.
Grey knights are astartes who are trained to almost exclusively fight daemons and daemonic cults, so they cant be partially thunder warriors who would have skill against virtually every opponent. Grey knights are not made to fight the imperiums toughest enemies, they are made to fight deamons.

It's stated quite often that Thunder Warriors were created to fight in a world overrun with crazy psykers, mutants, atomic wastelands, etc. That's one of the reasons they're more resistant to psychic power - because Terra was full of crazy warp-magic in the Age of Strife. Sounds like a good basis for SM geneseed to me.

However, I doubt this is the story. I'd imagine the tale going to wards a 'Fabius finds the Babu's laboratory during the siege' plot line.


@OP

Generally, the differences are as follows.

Thunder Warriors - seem to be 'enhanced humans' using something similar to gene-seed. Armies of them existed for the sole purpose of uniting Terra, a rad-soaked wasteland of techno-barbarians and rogue psykers. Mental. Fought as a barbarian army. Good fighters, individually a bit more dangerous than a Marine (though it's not stated that they're that much bigger - just more dangerous). After a while their genetics rebelled and they died. At the final battle on Terra, they were all wiped out in a 'cull' by the Emperor (and sometimes the new Astartes).

Custodes - not enhanced humans - created in a lab using some of the Emperor's genetics as a base. They fight individually as bodyguard warriors, and are heavily implied to better individual warriors than Astartes, but not as good in a battle because they don't fight 'together'. Different reports place them at different sizes, but most commonly referred to as taller, but slighter, than an Astartes.

Astartes - much more stable 'enhanced humans'. Developed as soldiers and brothers, to be part of an unshakeable army. Achieved by starting with the Primarch project, then filtering this down to the 'enhanced human' pattern.

It seems that the Emperor decided that, for a galaxy-conquering army, it was better to tone down the physical/individual aspects of the warriors in favour of loyalty, stability and brotherhood.

 Pilau Rice wrote:

It's likely that the Geneseed was one of the reasons for the fall of the Legions

I don't see any evidence what-so-ever that geneseed had anything to do with the betrayal; they were disaffected warriors that followed their disaffected Primarchs. Even in super-devout legions like Word Bearers and Sons of Horus, the Primarchs had to cull their ranks of those who remained loyal to the ideals of the Imperium.

 Omegus wrote:

 Pilau Rice wrote:

It's likely that the Geneseed was one of the reasons for the fall of the Legions

I don't see any evidence what-so-ever that geneseed had anything to do with the betrayal; they were disaffected warriors that followed their disaffected Primarchs. Even in super-devout legions like Word Bearers and Sons of Horus, the Primarchs had to cull their ranks of those who remained loyal to the ideals of the Imperium.

This, as Omegus said. The Legions often fallowed and took ques from Their Primarchs. The handful of survives that made up the core of the grey knights however were not simply Traitor marines that Lived. They are ones who in the end had that sense of betrayal burned into their very souls and over came the worst of it. If the genseed is effected by its SM, then you want those genseeds, they have proved to be not only the most faithful, but the "Hardest" around.

 Hunterindarkness wrote:

 Omegus wrote:

 Pilau Rice wrote:

It's likely that the Geneseed was one of the reasons for the fall of the Legions

I don't see any evidence what-so-ever that geneseed had anything to do with the betrayal; they were disaffected warriors that followed their disaffected Primarchs. Even in super-devout legions like Word Bearers and Sons of Horus, the Primarchs had to cull their ranks of those who remained loyal to the ideals of the Imperium.

This, as Omegus said. The Legions often fallowed and took ques from Their Primarchs. The handful of survives that made up the core of the grey knights however were not simply Traitor marines that Lived. They are ones who in the end had that sense of betrayal burned into their very souls and over came the worst of it. If the genseed is effected by its SM, then you want those genseeds, they have proved to be not only the most faithful, but the "Hardest" around.

I provided a quote from the Codex Astartes article that says that there were flaws in the Geneseed that allowed these to be exploited, have you got anything to say that it was not a contributing factor?. It's not the cause but one that should be considered. Even the IA article on the Word Bearers says that testing the Geneseed after the Heresy flaws were found

The gene-seed of the Word Bearers was originally thought to be pure, but events subsequent to the Horus Heresy revealed the weaknesses inherent in their genetic make-up. The Space Marines of the Word Bearers have a marked tendency towards dogged, unquestioning belief and stubbornness that verges on insanity.

We don't even know how the Grey Knights came by their Geneseed but we know that they have their own specific set. So I think your assumption that they have retained the Geneseed from their original Legion is incorrect, but hey, that is also an assumption as we do not know the full story yet. I understand why you would want to use the same Geneseed from these marines that remained loyal to the Emperor above all else but from a practical sense and a risk sense I don't think it is what the current Grey Knight have.

I also never said that they were not just traitor marines, which is not the case as they are not traitors. Plenty of those survived and quite clearly, a lot of these are 'Hardest' as you put it, as they are still around in 40k. Do you know for sure that Garro becomes a Grey knight, or if he even survives the Heresy? I think any marine that survived had a feeling of betrayal burned into their very existence, you didn't have to become a Grey Knight for this, every marine felt the betrayal, what of Tarvitz and Nero, what of Barabas Dantioch of the Iron Warriors? These all felt betrayal, they weren't betrayed any less than Garro and his lot.

I haven't mentioned anything about the elements that were purged amongst the Traitors as they weren't part of the discussion but ok, lets go.

In the case of the Word Bearers the ones that were loyal were all Terrans (Dark Creed p184-185) and there's your tie to the Emperor. In the Luna Wolves I can imagine it was the same thing or service, like Iacton having fought with the Emperor and fighting since Unity. It's a similar situation across the whole of the Legions that went traitor, that they had elements of loyalist and traitor, but look at the loyalist chapters, how many elements turned here? I can think of one marine so far and I had never heard of him until I read Prince of Crows. If you ask me there is certainly something in the loyalist Geneseed that made them uber loyal to the Emperor, much like the Custodians.

The HH books make it clear the group that started the Grey knights are in fact traitor marines. And I hate to tell ya ( Not really) but every single genseed is flawed, they are based upon chaos work. Each and every one is fruit from the poisoned tree that was the Primarchs and each and every one of those as well as the legions made from them are flawed in some way.

I do not think they replaced the genseed because A: there is zero point to do so and in fact it would be counter productive B: The timeline does not match, there are not "New" super dupper Emperor 2.0 Geneseeds. They are a fairy tale.

 Hunterindarkness wrote:
The HH books make it clear the group that started the Grey knights are in fact traitor marines.

Loyalist marines from a legion that went traitor, there is a difference. If they were Traitors themselves they would have gone with their Primarchs.

The group Specifically Garro is he the first Grey knight, or is he one of the first Inquisitors that was another group that is bought about by the Heresy events.

 Hunterindarkness wrote:

And I hate to tell ya ( Not really) but every single genseed is flawed, they are based upon chaos work. Each and every one is fruit from the poisoned tree that was the Primarchs and each and every one of those as well as the legions made from them are flawed in some way.

To the extent of the Traitor Geneseed? It's suggested that the Chaos Gods had some influence on the Emperors work but it's not proven, it could be Chaos smoke and mirrors like so many things, to get the would be traitors to turn fully.

 Hunterindarkness wrote:
I do not think they replaced the genseed because A: there is zero point to do so and in fact it would be counter productive B: The timeline does not match, there are not "New" super dupper Emperor 2.0 Geneseeds. They are a fairy tale.

There is every point to not have a risk of a possible Traitor running around. So Garro for example is loyal, and the next 10 marines to use the Geneseed, but the 11th, 100th, who knows. Also having a mixture of Geneseed might get complicated, what happens if Rubios Progenoids get implanted in a new aspirant with a Black Carrapace grown from Garro's and a Bletchers Gland grown from Lokens?

How doesn't the timeline match? Malcador moved Titan into the Warp either during or after the Heresy, they could have had any number of years there to do what was needed, also why does the Geneseed have to be new? Perhaps it was the original template that the Emperor used to create the Primarchs and was never used anywhere else?

Not saying you are wrong at all, just sounding off possibilities.

I'll also leave this for you, it's from Decembers WD and an interview with James Sallow. Make of it what you will.

"But the questions I get asked most about Garro are about his future. Where will he end up? What is the significance of the colourless armour he wears in service to Malcador the Sigillite? Will he face Mortarion again? All these things will be answered in time, but I'll leave you with one revelation. He is not a Grey Knight. The question of who and what Nathaniel Garro is, and where his fate lies, is much more complicated than that..."

He might not be a Grey Knight or he could be THE Grey Knight

 Pilau Rice wrote:

Loyalist marines from a legion that went traitor, there is a difference. If they were Traitors themselves they would have gone with their Primarchs.

The group Specifically Garro is he the first Grey knight, or is he one of the first Inquisitors that was another group that is bought about by the Heresy events.

1: You need to make up your mind. They are traitor marines or are not. If they are not then why change a genseed? something never done? something that might not be possible to do?

2: As the group they are working with is the fledgling Inquisitors and they are hidden from everyone, Yes they are the birth of the Grey knights. Why else go recruit other Marines to form a new legion?

 Pilau Rice wrote:

To the extent of the Traitor Geneseed? It's suggested that the Chaos Gods had some influence on the Emperors work but it's not proven, it could be Chaos smoke and mirrors like so many things, to get the would be traitors to turn fully.

The Genseeds are made of and only came into bring once he lost his twenty super humans. And once more you keep switching sides, either the genseeds make them traitors or they do not. If they do not then there is no reason to change them, if they do once more then those on the ones who did not turn are better then normal...so why change them?

[

 Pilau Rice wrote:

There is every point to not have a risk of a possible Traitor running around. So Garro for example is loyal, and the next 10 marines to use the Geneseed, but the 11th, 100th, who knows. Also having a mixture of Geneseed might get complicated, what happens if Rubios Progenoids get implanted in a new aspirant with a Black Carrapace grown from Garro's and a Bletchers Gland grown from Lokens?

Once more...genseeds make one resistant or they do not..

 Pilau Rice wrote:

How doesn't the timeline match? Malcador moved Titan into the Warp either during or after the Heresy, they could have had any number of years there to do what was needed, also why does the Geneseed have to be new? Perhaps it was the original template that the Emperor used to create the Primarchs and was never used anywhere else?

Because the emperor did not work that way, ever, He did not make extra anything, he planned and replanned and shared not a damned thing. he did not hold back, he never saved for later and he never seemed to have a damned back up. Also if he had an extra legion in the works..he would have used them in the HH ready or not. He was holding on by the skin of his teeth and he damned well knew it, he would have uncorked teenage Sm's to hold the line 2 mins if he had to.

So no, the time line and the way he worked makes the idea that he made new "super " genseeds a fairy tale the GK tell themselves as they do not honestly know the truth.

 Hunterindarkness wrote:

1: You need to make up your mind. They are traitor marines or are not. If they are not then why change a genseed? something never done? something that might not be possible to do?

I haven't changed my mind, regardless of whether Garro is loyal or not he still has traitor Geneseed. This is my point.

 Hunterindarkness wrote:

2: As the group they are working with is the fledgling Inquisitors and they are hidden from everyone, Yes they are the birth of the Grey knights. Why else go recruit other Marines to form a new legion?

To get Marines to train to become the Grey Knights? To save those of exceptional talent to train for the fledgling Inquisition?

 Hunterindarkness wrote:

The Genseeds are made of and only came into bring once he lost his twenty super humans. And once more you keep switching sides, either the genseeds make them traitors or they do not. If they do not then there is no reason to change them, if they do once more then those on the ones who did not turn are better then normal...so why change them?

How have I changed sides, the Geneseed is a factor to be be considered. Which is what I have said and provided quotes to support this. You said yourself that the Primarchs were flawed, which is where the Geneseed comes from. Why change the Geneseed, because it came from a Traitor Primarch which has been found to be flawed.

 Hunterindarkness wrote:
Once more...genseeds make one resistant or they do not..

Are you just ignoring what I am writing, It is not just down to Geneseed - it is a contributing factor.

 Hunterindarkness wrote:
Because the emperor did not work that way, ever, He did not make extra anything, he planned and replanned and shared not a damned thing. he did not hold back, he never saved for later and he never seemed to have a damned back up. Also if he had an extra legion in the works..he would have used them in the HH ready or not. He was holding on by the skin of his teeth and he damned well knew it, he would have uncorked teenage Sm's to hold the line 2 mins if he had to.

So no, the time line and the way he worked makes the idea that he made new "super " genseeds a fairy tale the GK tell themselves as they do not honestly know the truth.

Who said he made extra, he had 2 redundant geneseeds laying around as it was. He also apparently had other options he could have used during the Heresy but he chose not to.

The Index Astartes article on the Grey Knights and their own codex suggests that they have their own Geneseed and the Codex says it is derived from the Emperor itself.

Uniquely amongst the Space Marines of the Adeptus Astartes, the Grey Knights Chapter has no antecedents, having been created from specifically engineered gene-seed. Legend has it that the Emperor himself ordered the creation of this unique Chapter to form a force designed to fight the dread creatures of Chaos, though, of course, this is impossible to verify.

Codex Grey Knights P6: The Grey Knights were something altogether new, the culmination of a project begun by the Emperor during the final days of the Horus Heresy

contained within the fortress walls they would find everything necessary to create a new army of Space Marines; the Grey Knights .. New supplies of Geneseed lay preserved in Cryovats

Codex Grey Knights P7: Where the other Space Marine Chapters were built upon existing stock, the Grey Knights were born of new gene-seed, one without flaws of those that had gone before, and which carried the gift of the Emperor's own flesh and soul

Now can you provide some actual evidence to say that they do not have new Gene-seed? I've quoted right there from the Codex, now your turn to actually back up something like I have been doing throughout this conversation.

 Hunterindarkness wrote:
You need to make up your mind. They are traitor marines or are not.

And once more you keep switching sides, either the genseeds make them traitors or they do not.

Once more...genseeds make one resistant or they do not..

Are you very familiar with the 40k background?

Nothing ever written by GW is that simple. It's not a very black and white world.

@Pilau Rice, The GK Codex says it itself "Legend has it". They do not know, the Codex is built from the Grey Knight view. They have zero proof of what they ar saying, they really do not know there own history or where they came from and have no proof other then a legend they themselves made up that they have "Super" geneseeds.

Genseeds always come from terra to start a new chapter. what do you think happened to all that genseed stock that used to belong to those traitor marine legions?

The Grey Knights came about at a time when simply put the Emperor was to busty to bother with them. The Codex itself says they know nada about the genseeds. Hell they do not even know where the first members came from.



Like all GW contradictions, ya have to pick and chose the ones that work man. For me this one simply does not fit.



@ArbitorIan, I am Familiar enough to know GW does a half ass job at setting control and canon , yep.

 Hunterindarkness wrote:
@Pilau Rice, The GK Codex says it itself "Legend has it". They do not know, the Codex is built from the Grey Knight view. They have zero proof of what they ar saying, they really do not know there own history or where they came from and have no proof other then a legend they themselves made up that they have "Super" geneseeds.

Genseeds always come from terra to start a new chapter. what do you think happened to all that genseed stock that used to belong to those traitor marine legions?

The Grey Knights came about at a time when simply put the Emperor was to busty to bother with them. The Codex itself says they know nada about the genseeds.

Like all GW contradictions, ya have to pick and chose the ones that work man. For me this one simply does not fit.

It isn't a contradiction though is it, if anything the Codex confirms the assumption that their Gene-seed is from the Emperor. You find me the quote now from the latest codex, where I have pulled the quotes from that pretty much confirms that the Geneseed is taken from the Emperor himself, that says it's legend please as the quotes I have given you do not say this and as far as I can tell there is no mention of it being legend as it's black and white, new Gene - seed.

Once again you are blatantly not reading what's been provided to you and are ignoring pretty much what can be determined as fact. I don't like the way Ward said that the Grey Knights have Emperor Gene-seed, or at least carries his own flesh and soul, but he did.

And on the traitor legions gene-seed, why it's

IA: Codex Astartes
placed under a time-locked stasis seal, although at the time many believed these dangerous gene stocks should be destroyed.

And you are actually incorrect in the assumption that all gene-seed comes from Terra as

Index Astartes: Rites of Initiation
According to their charter, each Chapter is obliged to send 5% of its genetic material to the Adeptus Mechanicus on Mars. This 'tithe' has two purposes. Firstly, it enables the Adeptus Mechanicus to monitor the health of each Marine Chapter. Secondly, it enables the Adeptus Mechanicus to store gene-seed with a view to founding new Chapters.

And your comment about the Emperor being too busy is incorrect as the codex, once again says.

Codex Grey Knights P6: The Grey Knights were something altogether new, the culmination of a project begun by the Emperor during the final days of the Horus Heresy

We also know that the Emperor tasked Malcador to bring together certain individuals, so indirectly the Emperor was dealing with the task.

 Hunterindarkness wrote:
Hell they do not even know where the first members came from.

Now whose changing their mind? One minute Garro is the first Grey Knight now they don't even know where the first members came from?

Wait Thunder warriors being the grey knights genetic template? are grey knights physically more powerful than standard astartes? i kind of thought they were sort of an all psychic chapter with better training/equipment than most chapters considering they were created for fighting daemons.

 Viersche wrote:
Wait Thunder warriors being the grey knights genetic template? are grey knights physically more powerful than standard astartes? i kind of thought they were sort of an all psychic chapter with better training/equipment than most chapters considering they were created for fighting daemons.

We kind of devolved into discussing Grey Knights, but they, if the Codex has anything to go by, have superior Geneseed to the other Astartes as it does not suffer from any of the flaws and impurities like the other Chapters do. I asked a question in regards to the Grey Knights Gene-seed and how it came about, making an attempt at possibly connecting it with one of the Lost Legions and then basically answered my own question as I glanced in the Grey Knights codex which has the answer there. It doesn't confirm where the Gene-seed came from, just that it is new and likely derived from the Emperor himself.

I wouldn't say it makes them more powerful, just more psychically attuned, as with the Emperor, and purer than your regular Astartes.

The Thunder Warriors were the precursor to the Astartes, that led to the Grey Knights.

Custodes are a different breed altogether and it's unknown whether they have a Gene-seed or not. I think it's mentioned in the First Heretic that they don't, as they are created in an entirely different way from the mass produced Astartes.