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But also 50% range
75% The Toughness
75% The wounds
72% weapon Strength
25% less accurate
80% strength.
And only getting 225% shot volume.

 Savageconvoy wrote:
2 death rains w/ BSF = 92 points
3 stealth suits = 90

2 Death Rains with BSF - Unsaved Wounds / Lost Hull Points per Turn
GEQ: 2.5
MEQ: 0.83
TEQ: 0.42
AV: 10 - 2
AV: 11 - 1.5
AV: 12 - 1
AV: 13 - .5

3 Stealth Suits - Unsaved Wounds / Lost Hull Points per Turn per Turn
GEQ: 3.75 - Advantage Stealth Suit
MEQ: 1 - Advantage Stealth Suits
TEQ: 0.5 - Advantage Stealth Suits
AV: 10 1.5 - Advantage Death Rains
AV: 11 0.75 - Advantage Death Rains
AV: 12 0 - Advantage Death Rains
AV 13 0 - Advantage Death Rains

So, without fusion blasters, Stealth Suits out perfrm an equal oint value of death rain Crisis suits against all infantry. However the Death rains out perform the Stealth Suits against all vehicles in its threat range.

Does this make one better than the other? No, it just means each has a different role.

Also, for the heck of it, here's 90 points of Firewarriors - I used a shot count of 1.5 shots per firewarrior to represent Rapid Fire.applying half the time.
GEQ: 5.625 - better than either
MEQ: 1.5 - Better than either
TEQ: 0.75 - better than either
AV: 10 - 2.25 - better than either
AV: 11 - 1.125 Better than stealth, not as good as Death rains
AV: 12 0 - Same as stealth, inferior to Deathrains
AV: 13 0 - Same as stealth, inferior to Deathrains.

Hmmmm, still not sold on Stealth, but my Deathrains and Firewarriors are ging to alter their target priority a tad.

Jefffar wrote:
Does this make one better than the other? No, it just means each has a different role.

The problem is that the fire warriors you have to bring to claim objectives are already taking the "anti-infantry through volume of fire" role, so your elites need to do something that your troops can't. Deathrains are useful because they can engage vehicles at range, while stealth suits are redundant because all they offer is more infantry killing.

 Peregrine wrote:

You know that is a lie so why say it? They can blow up AV 12 flyers. It might not be a wise choice as there are better targets for stealth teams.

How exactly does a unit armed with STR 5 weapons do anything to AV 12? Do you bring special cheating dice that can roll a 7?

Pottsey wrote:
If you are ignored the stealth team how are you protecting the tanks from being blown up by the stealth team?

By having AV 12 or better on my tanks.

What about all your AV12+ stuff you will lose to stealth teams?

I call you a cheater for bringing D6s that roll a 7, and refuse to ever play you again.

I would assume he's talking about the fusion blaster option...

Shas'o_Longshot wrote:
I would assume he's talking about the fusion blaster option...

While simultaneously talking about the BC/GD unit that JSJs at maximum BC range to protect itself. It's amusing how stealth suits always change equipment to suit the argument.

TLDR
i still can't see any thing SS do that 12 firewarriors with fish can not. Call us haters, but you have to admit that in competitive enviroment SS aren't needed AT ALL.

 Peregrine wrote:

 BoomWolf wrote:
Fact is, whatever peregrine says, my stealth team of 3 suits and 6 drones killed at the very least 120 point worth of enemies every single game (they cost 150, so it's an "ok" kill rate at it's WORST)

That's a shamefully bad kill rate. The minimum I would even consider accepting from a non-scoring unit with no role besides killing stuff is a 1:1 ratio, and I'd expect a lot more before I'd really consider using it in my army.

Your kill rate with every unit is 1:1 at the very worst? tell me more about how you table your opponent every single game /sarcasm

 Peregrine wrote:

 BoomWolf wrote:
and they more often the not get mentioned by my opponent as the unit that caused them the most damage on the field, when it comes to both killing and controlling the board. (more often the not killing an entire tactical team without taking even half squad losses.)

Wow, really? An entire tactical squad? I'm convinced! /sarcasm

Tactical squads are mediocre and easy to kill. If your stealth suits lost half the squad doing it that's a sign of a garbage unit.

3 stealth suits with 6 gun drones-150 points. (my setup for the stealth team)
losing "half the squad" (rounded down, as I clearly said "less then half"), means you lost an incredible amount of 4 gun drones-40 points. (and its always the drones, I have never lost a suit before the drones)
A tactical squad of 10, plus plasma gun, plus comi-plasma, plus rhino with an extra storm bolter-235 points. (some random common upgrades listed, sometimes it differs a bit, but it remains similar overall.)

40 points lost, 235 points killed. 1:5.875 kill rate seems more then reasonable to me. and the only reason they didn't do more is that the game ended too quickly for them to get to his last surviving units. so even at "final cost/effect" rate counting-that's 1:1.56666, still a job well done and enough to be worth my time.

 Peregrine wrote:

 BoomWolf wrote:
They might be out-gunned by even basic troops in a vacuum, but in a REAL game-casualties pile up quickly on firewarriors (heck, they don't always even get to shoot a second time!), while the stealth team will reliably shoot from turn 1 to turn 7.

Only because your opponent is busy killing your scoring units and ignoring the stealth suits. If you spend all of the points you spent on stealth suits on even more fire warriors you will win more games.

Who cares that they killed all my scoring units if he don't have any either by the time the game ends (as my stealths hunted his rear, while the bulk hunted his front), and I got points for FB, warlord and linebraker (linebraker again stealth team points, FB also at times is.)? I still won.

BTW-if I spend these 150 points on more firewarrios, that would be 15 firewarrios max, not too shabby, but still die as fast as you can sneeze at them.

I wont bother answering the rest, as its you answering other people, and you got answered in turn.
However, as to how the "stealth suit changes it's setup by the requirements", you might as well say its amusing how "crisis suits changes their setup by the requirements", you set them up from the firstplace to do a given job, not throw the same setup for every job, and the mere fact you even tried to use that argument is sad. not each of us uses the same stealth team, and they all have their uses, just a bit different from one to another. (not to mention that you can, I donno, match your actions in-game to the freaking situation?)

mzob-I DO believe in using them to infiltrate fair amounts of hard-to-remove S5 guns to form instant-barriers and grab control over the field on turn 0, who will then be used to navigate enemy forces where YOU want them to be.
And IIRC they are used in the very random properly scoring Tau lists in actual competitive play too.

I DO believe in using them to infiltrate fair amounts of hard-to-remove S5 guns to form instant-barriers and grab control over the field on turn 0, who will then be used to navigate enemy forces where YOU want them to be.

well, it could work if they had at least 24" range, but it's only 18". A smart opponet will just ignore them. Yeah 9 shots S5, cool. At 3BS, lol.
Honestly, i DO like their models and fluff, very much. I'm even going to buy a box or two for killteam events. But they cost too much points for what they do, really. Which make me thinks BTW that they are receiving a major buff in upcoming codex. But now they are crap.

Well, that's why I pair then with 2 drones each. 9 shots a BS3 and 6 TL shots at BS2 are a bit harsher, and can put a nice dent in most units. (or put some real pain on fragile ones.)

I would love to see them patched up, but that goes for 80% of the codex...

Don't get me wrong, I really want to like them, but can't really spare an elite slot and barely the points. If they were troop for the same cost, I'd take them in a heart beat. Fast attacks Id still want the price down a bit, but they'd do me better than a piranha. I'd probably take them as an HQ if I had the option, since I never use the extra slot.

Well we are talking about the tau codex here, everything is overpriced. Making the most of what we have is what good players do.

Making the most of what we have is what good players do

right, but not precisely. Let me correct: making the most of what we have by making right choises. SS are wrong choice.

everything is overpriced

firewarriors ain't

Peregrine I noticed you ignored and skipped over many my questions that prove Stealth are good. No counter arguments?

 Peregrine wrote:
“Err, no. That's a stupid argument. The whole "bring a weak unit because nobody will shoot at it and then it will be effective" is a fallacy, essentially what you've done is turn your stronger units into shield drones for the weaker one. The correct thing to do is to bring nothing but powerful units so your opponent can't kill them all fast enough.”

What is fallacy is you calling it a weak unit. You ignore facts like it can take out critical targets long before crisis or firewarriors.
I have not turned my stronger unit into shield drones for the weaker one; that is not the goal of the unit. What I have done is used two deadly units with the same range and merged them to make an even more powerful unit. A unit that cannot be ignored as it can cause over 30 wounds a turn, can blow up AV14, can do up to 8 shots at AP2, can ignore cover saves, pin and absorb a massive amount of firepower with FNP and 2+ cover saves in the mix, is highly mobile. Yet somehow you want to call that weak.
This unit can kill far more than any fire warrior or crisis squad and can survive more than other units. It is extremely effective even against great opponents. You can pretend it’s not as much as you like but the track records speaks for its self.
Another great use for Stealth teams, infiltrate onto the Relic, move in the movement and assault phase and use Stealth to stay alive. You can have the Relic in your deployment zone by turn 2 well away from the enemy as on average that’s 24” movement by that turn with Stealth.

“Targets like what? Crisis suits can deep strike and hit pretty much anywhere they want.”

We have already been over this. As the last thread proved Crisis suits are far worse at that role. By the time Crisis can deep strike and assuming they landed ok, Stealth could have already killed the target with infiltrate and moved onto killing other useful targets. Like I said last game I killed the enemy’s HQ squad and warlord in there deployments zone long before Crisis could have got into range or killed a more useful units. Why do you ignore these massive advantages of stealth suits? Why would I have been better not using Stealth like you keep saying when no other unit would have been that effective?

“Stealth suits only survive if your opponent doesn't deploy a melta screen around their vulnerable targets. Melta range is 6", so jumping into melta range means a high chance of getting assaulted and wiped out in return.”

Why do you keep pretending its 6” range? Fusion range is 12” that’s how I kill enemy warlords. Again last thread proved it was a low to zero chance to get assaulted if you choose your target wisely. Move into 12” range, shoot, jet back 2d6 and if possible jet behind cover. Most infantry targets only move 6” and AV targets tend to be dead after you shot.

“How exactly do you shoot and kill something before the first turn? Because that's when crisis suits start to fire.”

Again last thread proved that wrong. On a normal battlefield crisis will normally have no Line of sight and normally be out of weapon range. Unless you play on some odd empty table. I showed you a pic of normal tables and you never explained how Crisis can be fighting on turn 1. They can sometimes but most of the time crisis have no target or the target is low priority against the high priority target stealth can hit.

“How exactly does a unit armed with STR 5 weapons do anything to AV 12? Do you bring special cheating dice that can roll a 7?”

I use the 12” stg 8 weapons that you like to ignore and that I told you I take all the time. You know I often have 3 fusion in my stealth team. (via IC)

“While simultaneously talking about the BC/GD unit that JSJs at maximum BC range to protect itself. It's amusing how stealth suits always change equipment to suit the argument.”

The only person changing equipment to suit the argument and ignoring equipment is you.
I gave you my precise equipment last thread. I never said jumping at max BC range. I said 12” shoot then jump. You can say fusion is 6” range as much as you like but it is just not true. 12” range means even if you role a double 1 for JSJ then you are unlikely to get assaulted.

Well like all Tau SS threads this is getting pushy :/

But I think we should look at this from both sides.

Fact is SS are a redundancy for anti infantry, and when taking fusion blasters has a 60 point tax per. At 90 points per fusion blasters It is always much better to take crisis suits for that high priority kill. You cannot always get into fusion blaster range from infiltrate ether, it’s too situation with terrain and line of sight, otherwise it might have been worth it. (from what I understand, you must deploy more than 18” away there for if you move in 6” you will be more than 12” away aka out of range. Im not sure if this is how it works as I would like to be proved otherwise) So a twin linked fusion blaster suit squad for about 30 points less per suit wound engage at the same time.

I think if anything SS should just focus on backfield harass mostly against flak armor which is what they excel at. Otherwise the only other use they really do have Is as screeners and fire magnets, infiltrating them in mid field and as a shoot and scoot speed bump.

Its way expensive and the unit is overpriced, everyone can agree on that.

Pottsey wrote:
What is fallacy is you calling it a weak unit.

That's what YOU said. "It won't draw fire because it's less powerful, so it gets to kill more". It's a fallacy.

You ignore facts like it can take out critical targets long before crisis or firewarriors.

I ignore it because it's not a fact.

I have not turned my stronger unit into shield drones for the weaker one; that is not the goal of the unit. What I have done is used two deadly units with the same range and merged them to make an even more powerful unit. A unit that cannot be ignored as it can cause over 30 wounds a turn, can blow up AV14, can do up to 8 shots at AP2, can ignore cover saves, pin and absorb a massive amount of firepower with FNP and 2+ cover saves in the mix, is highly mobile. Yet somehow you want to call that weak.

It also costs a lot of points and can't do any of those things reliably. For example, the odds of causing 30 HITS (not even wounds) are substantially worse than the odds of winning the lottery.

(And you can't do more than 30 wounds because you only have 30 shots.)

Another great use for Stealth teams, infiltrate onto the Relic, move in the movement and assault phase and use Stealth to stay alive. You can have the Relic in your deployment zone by turn 2 well away from the enemy as on average that’s 24” movement by that turn with Stealth.

At which point I show you the part where only scoring units, which stealth suits aren't, can claim and move the relic. And then you cry.

We have already been over this. As the last thread proved Crisis suits are far worse at that role. By the time Crisis can deep strike and assuming they landed ok, Stealth could have already killed the target with infiltrate and moved onto killing other useful targets.

It must be nice to play against people who don't know how to use screening units to keep infiltrators out of a useful position, and/or forget the whole "can't deploy within 18" rule.

Why do you ignore these massive advantages of stealth suits?

Because the advantages don't exist.

Why do you keep pretending its 6” range? Fusion range is 12” that’s how I kill enemy warlords.

We were talking about killing vehicles, which means you have to get within 6".

On a normal battlefield crisis will normally have no Line of sight and normally be out of weapon range.

Laughably wrong. Every single game I start shooting on turn 1, no matter what army I'm using. And those shots aren't going into low-priority targets. The only way crisis suits aren't going to be in range is if your opponent sucks and hides in the back of their deployment zone instead of rushing forward to assault and table you.

I use the 12” stg 8 weapons that you like to ignore and that I told you I take all the time. You know I often have 3 fusion in my stealth team. (via IC)

Ok, so I guess you lied about the whole "inflict 30 wounds" thing, since a unit with fusion doesn't even have 30 shots?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 BoomWolf wrote:
Your kill rate with every unit is 1:1 at the very worst? tell me more about how you table your opponent every single game /sarcasm

Reading is good. I said for a non-scoring unit whose sole purpose is to kill things. And that's what stealth suits are.

Who cares that they killed all my scoring units if he don't have any either by the time the game ends (as my stealths hunted his rear, while the bulk hunted his front), and I got points for FB, warlord and linebraker (linebraker again stealth team points, FB also at times is.)? I still won.

So let me get this straight: your plan in 6th edition is to ignore the objectives and hope you win on secondary points? What do you do if your opponent gets first turn and takes first blood? What do you do if your opponent has a single scoring unit left that you couldn't kill, and their one objective beats all of your secondary points?

You can make stealth suits scoring units to claim the relic or objectives but I cannot be bothered explaining that to you as clearly you do not want to listen to anything outside your limited tactics and limited views. As for cannot deploy with 18” well on a normal table full of buildings it should be relatively easy to deploy out of LoS within 12” or deploy in a building. I also do not believe your crisis can often fire on turn 1 as that should not happen on a correctly setup table against a good opponent.

“Ok, so I guess you lied about the whole "inflict 30 wounds" thing, since a unit with fusion doesn't even have 30 shots?”
No I did not lie I explained to you last thread how I got 3 fusion and over 30 wounds and up to 8 shots at AP2. What’s the point in going over it again you will just pretend it doesn’t exist as you do not seem to want to acknowledge anything outside your own play style.

Every game we all play and do well with Stealth suits against good opponents proves you are wrong. No matter how much you like to pretend otherwise.

Anyway Peregrine you are clearly in denial and there is no point in arguing with you. You have ignored facts, ignored math and ignored tournament winners lists, ignored people explaining advantages and then pretended those advantages are not real. There is just no point going on. The only person you are putting at a disadvantage in games is yourself. So you keep having fun without Stealth suits and I will keep using them as very effective units.

For those of us who don't play Tau, how are you making Stealth Suits into Scoring Units? I'd guess it involves an allied GK Grand Master, but that gets pricey in a hurry.

Pottsey wrote:
You can make stealth suits scoring units to claim the relic or objectives but I cannot be bothered explaining that to you as clearly you do not want to listen to anything outside your limited tactics and limited views.

Yeah, by rolling on a warlord trait table that gives you a 1/6 chance of getting it for your HQ and more than a 1/6 chance of getting a useless melee bonus. Sounds like great plan to me...

As for cannot deploy with 18” well on a normal table full of buildings it should be relatively easy to deploy out of LoS within 12” or deploy in a building.

Out of LOS means entirely out of LOS. If I can see even a single finger of one model they are not out of LOS. If I can see a square millimeter of one model through a tiny gap in a ruin they are not out of LOS. What this effectively means is that you won't be deploying out of LOS within 12".

I also do not believe your crisis can often fire on turn 1 as that should not happen on a correctly setup table against a good opponent.

You start 24" apart, and can move 6". Your weapons have 24-36" range. How can you NOT shoot on turn 1, assuming a standard table and not some all-terrain insanity?

No I did not lie I explained to you last thread how I got 3 fusion and over 30 wounds and up to 8 shots at AP2. What’s the point in going over it again you will just pretend it doesn’t exist as you do not seem to want to acknowledge anything outside your own play style.

6x stealth suits with BCs = 18 shots.

12x gun drones = 12 shots.

Total: 30 SHOTS.

That is the maximum firepower for a unit. If you take fusion you have less than 30 shots because you replace a 3-shot weapon with a 1-shot weapon.

This went from claims that the SS is good to claims that the Crisis suit is bad.

This went really weird really quick. My last 8 games I've managed to deploy and go first (Because cowards deploy retroactively) and I have never had a problem finding a target for missilepods.

Back to the point, I don't really see a reason to run the stealthsuits with a fusion blaster. If anti-tank is your goal, Broadsides are a much better option and far more accurate.

Ok, maybe the melta isn't for heavy vehicles, maybe it's for light armor. Well that's still 1 shot and the rest of the squads weapons would be lucky to glance. I'll just stick to deathrains for that.

What if I just just it to take out a few extra armored infantry? Why? When mass shots/wounds is the goal, you should be going more for volume than anything else. And again, I have deathrains which generally wound anything on a 2+. They may get the armor save, but the wounds are more reliable.

I'd also like to point out that the SS is 1W T3. Flamers wreck these guys. Sure they have a 3+ armor, but this is where it gets kinda funny so stick around. People advocate the Stealthsuit because it can lay out a lot of shots and maybe a lot of wounds and you're bound to fail those saves. But that same logic goes onto the Stealth suit! And with T3 it'll be soaking up wounds like crazy. And remember, all those drones make it a bigger target and still count towards moral checks.

Personally I prefer hiding and denying the enemy shots as opposed to hoping I make all my saves. It's hard to do that with a huge blob.

 Peregrine wrote:

No I did not lie I explained to you last thread how I got 3 fusion and over 30 wounds and up to 8 shots at AP2. What’s the point in going over it again you will just pretend it doesn’t exist as you do not seem to want to acknowledge anything outside your own play style.

6x stealth suits with BCs = 18 shots.

12x gun drones = 12 shots.

Total: 30 SHOTS.

That is the maximum firepower for a unit. If you take fusion you have less than 30 shots because you replace a 3-shot weapon with a 1-shot weapon.

He can attach an HQ choice for more shots. Which he did say that we was doing.

FenixZero wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:

No I did not lie I explained to you last thread how I got 3 fusion and over 30 wounds and up to 8 shots at AP2. What’s the point in going over it again you will just pretend it doesn’t exist as you do not seem to want to acknowledge anything outside your own play style.

6x stealth suits with BCs = 18 shots.

12x gun drones = 12 shots.

Total: 30 SHOTS.

That is the maximum firepower for a unit. If you take fusion you have less than 30 shots because you replace a 3-shot weapon with a 1-shot weapon.

He can attach an HQ choice for more shots. Which he did say that we was doing.

If an IC is attached to the squad, the squad can't Infiltrate since none of the Tau HQ ICs have Infiltrate.

I don't want to get mixed up in the stealth unit meant for attacking "goey parts" versus main line battlesuit of tau army argument, but would both of you please tell me why 2 platoons of 3 stealth suits w/ command markerlights & 3-6 markerlight drones would be better/ worse versus pathfinders respectively? Thanks

Peregrine I am not going argue with you anymore about the rules or stealth. All I am going to say is in the games I play we follow the rules of splitting the board into 6 sections with each section having D3 random terrain parts. Clusters of 3 small terrain parts only count as 1 as per the rulebook. A normal sized game board has 6 sections with up to 3 buildings per section or if using clusters up to 9 terrain bits per section. An average role of the dice means a game broad has 12 buildings or decent sized bits of terrain on.

(I say building, I mean anything of decent size like a forest, ammo dump we count as 1. very large buildings count as 2 terrain parts)


Automatically Appended Next Post:

FoWPlayerDeathOfUS.TDs wrote:
I don't want to get mixed up in the stealth unit meant for attacking "goey parts" versus main line battlesuit of tau army argument, but would both of you please tell me why 2 platoons of 3 stealth suits w/ command markerlights & 3-6 markerlight drones would be better/ worse versus pathfinders respectively? Thanks

I think this might be one area both me and Peregrine can agree on. Markerlight drones in stealth suits teams are mostly a bad idea. I did mess around with outflanking Stealth suits calling in seeker missiles onto rear armour.
Another time I made small stealth teams with 2 marker drones infiltrated to marklight for broadsides on turn 1 but that is not cost effective. Roughly speaking every 2 markerlight drones is 1 less battlesuit. I would rather take 1 extra stealth or 1 extra crisis suit over 2 marker drones. Another way to look at it is 6 marker drones costs more than a full 3 man crisis team.

Just so no one gets the wrong idea, I am not saying crisis teams are bad. I think they fill a very different role to stealth suits.

EDIT: I think pathfinders with rail rifles and marker lights are better than stealth teams and markerlights. What I sometimes do is skip buying a transport for fire warriors and use the pathfinder tank to transport Kroot or fire warriors. If I am not mistaken you can even fit a Krootox in the pathfinder tank!

Pottsey wrote:
Peregrine I am not going argue with you anymore about the rules or stealth.

In other words, you concede that you're wrong about the rules and that there is no plausible way to make stealth suits into a scoring unit. Concession accepted.

All I am going to say is in the games I play we follow the rules of splitting the board into 6 sections with each section having D3 random terrain parts. Clusters of 3 small terrain parts only count as 1 as per the rulebook. A normal sized game board has 6 sections with up to 3 buildings per section or if using clusters up to 9 terrain bits per section. An average role of the dice means a game broad has 12 buildings or decent sized bits of terrain on.

And that standard amount of terrain does NOT prevent you from shooting turn 1, and it probably won't block LOS absolutely 100% for a full-size stealth suit unit with gun drones. Either you're playing with too much terrain, or you have huge LOS-blocking terrain that's way too big for normal games.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

FoWPlayerDeathOfUS.TDs wrote:
I don't want to get mixed up in the stealth unit meant for attacking "goey parts" versus main line battlesuit of tau army argument, but would both of you please tell me why 2 platoons of 3 stealth suits w/ command markerlights & 3-6 markerlight drones would be better/ worse versus pathfinders respectively? Thanks

Very poorly. Marker drones are too expensive to be useful. The only markerlight sources that are more efficient than buying more guns are pathfinders and Tetras.

 Peregrine wrote:

Pottsey wrote:
Peregrine I am not going argue with you anymore about the rules or stealth.

In other words, you concede that you're wrong about the rules and that there is no plausible way to make stealth suits into a scoring unit. Concession accepted.

Very funny, no I do not concede I just think it is a waste of time arguing so will stop.

Thanks for the help.

I'll add to the consensus of marker drones costing too much.
Now, some say having a TL upgrade, armed with a markerlight and a MT is worth it, I disagree-still too expensive.
Tetra is the way to go if you can play with forgeworld, pathfinders if not. (these guys I would not take to small games though-1500 and more only. tetra however I would play even at 500 points with the millage it provides.)

Savageconvoy-no sane person will claim crisis are bad, but they take longer to do their thing, and have different goals.
Missile pods are likely to find a target on turn 1 as well, but not necessarily a great target, and any other crisis gun is out of commission on turn 1 unless you both deployed really, REALLY aggressive. (had happened to me before, but rare. usually they wont shoot most guns until turn 2 or 3-at least not on anything worth shooting them at.)


Peregrine-lovely how you ignored the kill rates as they were uncomfortable to your stand, and how you ignore a VERY valid tactic of gunning for secondaries-something that usually works, because as long someone plays as you say is "right" (ignore the stealth and go after my own troops), I can pretty much be sure I kill every scoring unit by turn 5, and more often then not every single enemy unit if it goes to turn 7. aiming at the stealth with superior power, the "wrong" play, is the only thing that ever stops me.
Not to mention that you keep assuming the stealth team's actual goal is to rack up kills. that's just a nice bonus, they are meant to crease zone control with infiltration, claim first blood, harass key enemy units and throw a wrench in his plan as a general concept.
If you look for raking the killcount, that's where the crisis teams comes into play, and you can have plenty of these considering you can HQ them as well. (just make sure you HQ the teams that deserve to be HQ-the ones that have the highest shot count, and as such gain the most out of increased BS.)

Also, from what you say about terrain-you obviously have NO idea how to use it tactically. you don't need just ANY terrain, a clever (and WAAC, as you like to be apparently) JSJ Tau player will hand-pick the terrain pieces that serves his JSJ tactics, like tall and thin solid walls, and set them up in neat little boxes that outright block LoS from multiple directions.-then you can have a free ride jumping over and back, shooting all you like, and never getting shot back.
Its fighting dirty, but when all that counts is winning...

 BoomWolf wrote:
Peregrine-lovely how you ignored the kill rates as they were uncomfortable to your stand

You quoted an average kill rate of less than 1:1, I responded to it. I ignored your specific example because it's just a single event. What matters is the average results, not whether or not in one particular case the dice favored you instead of your opponent.

and how you ignore a VERY valid tactic of gunning for secondaries-something that usually works,

I responded to that "tactic". It's a stupid one. Obviously you try to claim the secondaries, but when secondaries are worth up to three points if you get them all and primaries are worth three points each, allowing your troops to be slaughtered and trying to prevent your opponent from claiming even a single objective is a really bad plan.

I can pretty much be sure I kill every scoring unit by turn 5, and more often then not every single enemy unit if it goes to turn 7.

Stop playing against bad players. If you're so confident that you can remove every scoring unit by turn 5, and table your opponent if it goes the full 7 turns, you're playing against people who suck at 40k.

that's just a nice bonus, they are meant to crease zone control with infiltration, claim first blood, harass key enemy units and throw a wrench in his plan as a general concept.

Which only works if you're playing against a weaker player who is vulnerable to mind tricks. If your opponent is smart and correctly evaluates the threat "harassment" doesn't work.

(just make sure you HQ the teams that deserve to be HQ-the ones that have the highest shot count, and as such gain the most out of increased BS.)

Oh yes, that old bit of failing to understand math. Shot count and BS are entirely independent attributes, changing the unit's BS does absolutely nothing to change the relative value of two weapons. Single-shot weapons benefit from high BS just as much as many-shot weapons.

Also, from what you say about terrain-you obviously have NO idea how to use it tactically. you don't need just ANY terrain, a clever (and WAAC, as you like to be apparently) JSJ Tau player will hand-pick the terrain pieces that serves his JSJ tactics, like tall and thin solid walls, and set them up in neat little boxes that outright block LoS from multiple directions.-then you can have a free ride jumping over and back, shooting all you like, and never getting shot back.

Read more carefully. Terrain was brought up in the context of a claim that shooting doesn't happen on turn 1 because of terrain. I said that claim was stupid, I never denied the entirely different claim that a smart Tau player can make good use of terrain and JSJ, which is a very obviously true statement.

In games with Hammer & Anvil or Vanguard Strike deployment, outflanking Stealth teams can make a pretty big difference to the result of the game. You have a 89% chance to deploy them from the flank of your choice (thanks to Acute Senses) and they have a 24" threat range from that edge, anywhere along its length.

It becomes very easy to move them onto the board in a position where they can get you Linebreaker, and have 2-3 turns to clear enemy squads off of back field objectives, or take out those pesky Long Fangs or Devastators, or pour S5 firepower into the rear armour of whatever artillery your opponent has brought - and then jetpack out of assault range before they can even react to you.

With 3+ armour and 2-4+ cover, you have a pretty good chance of surviving to the end of the game, especially if your opponent has moved all his forces into midfield and not kept anything at the back except for heavy support.


6th edition is all about positioning... those supporting squads will have the vital units at the back, or behind cover - and they'll be right there for you to target, without the benefit of cover or other squad members.

If I knew someone with Fusion Blasters, or even Burstcannons where going to Outflank into my combat squaded tactical squads or whatever (And, since I'm playing Tau, you can bet I put an objective or two closer to where the action is going to be).

Regardless, I'd probably put them on one side, in a way that lets me charge you on the next turn regardless where you JSJ, and you can bet I'll be hunkered down in forests if you are toting Fusion Blasters, and if not, whatever, Burstcannons are AP 5 or 4 or whatever. Space Marine don't care.

Essentially the entire Stealth Suit strategy seems to be to hope you get lucky on the JSJ roll, 'cause if you don't, whatever is in the back field is going to charge and crush you.