Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Put yourself threw a scenerio. You walk into a new store. Friend of yours challenges you to a game. He talks about his new list and how awsome it is. You take a glimpse at his army and see there's no way your ganna win with your usually list. So do you...

A.) Taylor a list to beat your friends new army
B.) Play the game with your current list and hope for the best

What I would do is play the game with my current list. Next time we play I may taylor depending on how I did. My thoughts on why is because I find it foolish to use a list multiple times on the same opponent. People learn and should adapt to new obstacles instead of doing nothing about it. Please correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't sun-tzu mention not using the same strategies for the same reason or something like that? I will mention that I will never taylor my first game against a new list and instead will use my regular one. I use the list I plan on using before I go to gw or whatever. Now I'm curious on what you guys think on this matter

Oops!!! Wrong place!!!!!!!

What about option C?

C. Hand of god table and rage quit.

first of all, I don't think this as a place in background.
secondly, yes, I would use my regular list.
Now, if i'm playing against someone that either knows my list or plays with a different amount of point, i would then have to change my list either to add or subtract points or to counter my adversary's counters

T'is the wrong forum for starters.
And I am a sold anti tayloring kind of person. Building just to beat a friend is wrong in my opinion.

Of course this depends on how far you go, adding a unit of two to your general play style because you know you might be facing X or Y is ok,

Building your whole list with the sole purpose being the destruction of your friends new army is just bad sport.

Thats my 2 cents.
Cheers

Geez someone woudlnt hapoen to inform me if there's a way to move this tbread to the appropiate forum? Guys I was to tired after work to get it right...

aside from the wrong forum, you spelled "tailor" wrong

that being said, I don't mind people making lists on the spot, so long as I can tweak as well.

If you're playing presets, then no don't change them. I have always felt list tailoring IS the name of the game,. its war, do what you can to fight the good fight.

 coolbrobunny wrote:
Geez someone woudlnt hapoen to inform me if there's a way to move this tbread to the appropiate forum? Guys I was to tired after work to get it right...

Gotcha covered.

 mayfist wrote:
T'is the wrong forum for starters.
And I am a sold anti tayloring kind of person. Building just to beat a friend is wrong in my opinion.

Of course this depends on how far you go, adding a unit of two to your general play style because you know you might be facing X or Y is ok,

Building your whole list with the sole purpose being the destruction of your friends new army is just bad sport.

Thats my 2 cents.
Cheers

I would like more of your two cents if that's ok lol. So let's say I play green tide. My friend bob plays flamer template space marines. Our first game I get whooped. We schedual a game next week. I make or bring a more meky based list. I plan on using this list, even if he throws me off gaurd and brings a melta sm themed army. Would my actions be taboo to you and why do you think?

When used for justice, tailoring is good, but in a game against friends, I would always bring my TAC list, if they started bringing hard counters and tailoring to beat me, that's fine. Ill bring another army next time, forcing them to play TAC as well.

You saw that your list wasn't doing what you wanted it to so you changed the machine to handle a wider variety of situations. Sounds fine.

 Lucre wrote:
You saw that your list wasn't doing what you wanted it to so you changed the machine to handle a wider variety of situations. Sounds fine.

I would like your opinions on this. Would you play someone with a preset list if you didn't know until last minute that it had a advantage over your army? Let's also say this guy didn't know wat you were going to use until you guys actually played

I think both players need to know what's going on and no one should have an advantage beyond the execution of the game.

Ask your pal, in the OP, what he wants: your standard list that is going to get whalloped, another premade list youve used before, or a tailored counter. Why do people never think to talk to the other guy before playing?

 Lobukia wrote:
I think both players need to know what's going on and no one should have an advantage beyond the execution of the game.

Ask your pal, in the OP, what he wants: your standard list that is going to get whalloped, another premade list youve used before, or a tailored counter. Why do people never think to talk to the other guy before playing?

I like your point. Talking before the game can make it very enjoyable for both parties. Now I actually prefer to not know what my opponent brings until the game starts. I guess you can say that's the thrill for me, so I try to make lists can can handle anything thrown at me.

Adjusting your list week to week is perfectly acceptable, it is part of the fun. Hell, I'd even let my friends swap units on their list last minute if they wanted.

Well, in the case you present in the opening post, I say no. In that situation, you're taking an unfair advantage. It's unfair because you don't give the opponent with the new list any chance to alter his list.

However, list tailoring in general is a good thing. The ideal way to play 40K, in my opinion, is to speak to your opponent before the game.

"I'll be using Dark Eldar" he says.

"I'll be using Orks" you say.

And then you both go away and write the best anti-Ork and anti-Dark Eldar lists you can.

The key here is that you're attempting to anticipate what your opponent will bring, and choose tools to counter that. He has the same opportunity to do that to you. This really mixes the game up, and suddenly you find yourself wanting to take units that you otherwise ignore. It breaks the 'netlist' meta and lets you even the playing field a bit.

However, in the case described above, you're building a list specifically to counter what you KNOW your opponent will be using, and you're not giving him the opportunity to change his list. Bad sportsmanship, IMO.

I can be accused of tailoring sometimes, but not in a way I see as bad. My meta has an almost unhealthy amount of Dark Eldar (Like, I can go months without really seeing much besides DE. Maybe some SW, GK, and Necrons but that's from the tourney crowd I usually don't play) . So my list is pretty adapted to fighting DE style strategies. I don't really call that tailoring, as I know for a fact that's pretty much all I will be playing. Ever. So I don't see much use in purposefully bringing units that I know for a fact MONTHS before I even play a game that I will never get to use to full effect and thus wasting points.

Now, if I knew the EXACT list my friend was bringing I would feel kinda like TFG if I bring a solid list JUST to beat it. Now, if he does that to me (and I don't tell people my list until the game so I can avoid that) that's a bit different

Well I would see it as some sort of whacky exercise if I were in the OPs position. Like, I know my thing looks rough vs his, I'm playing to see how well it can play around a disadvantage?

Unless you've got some etiquette here I don't see the problem with making a more balanced list for the new environment that includes this dude. Pure list tailoring is a different thing, and not always fun but your pal knows what is good against his counterable list when he made it right?

Like a 4 land raider list is a decision you made to try to exploit a gimmick. Maybe after this you'll both stop being gimmicky and run something balanced. Or use better gimmicks! But list tailoring is usually kinda lame and makes you feel bad when you lose after all.

B and then B for all the other games after that. List tailoring is just bad sportsmanship and people who do it really piss me off. Even before a game where we both agree on an army I will never tailor. Why? Because tailoring proves nothing more than you can beat an army so long as you make sure you can counter everything your opponent has not to mention it can also backfire horribly if your opponent brings something you weren’t expecting. An all-comers list on the other hand is great as it means you are relying on skill, not stacking the odds in your favour. When you both do it I guess it kinda cancels out but still, I play a lot of pickup games so I like to make sure I have all my bases covered.

But like if I'm known to have an ork foot horde army and my buddy is known for his super flamer spam shouldn't we learn to grow a little so we can have more fun games and eventually find ourselves with balanced lists?

 Lucre wrote:
But like if I'm known to have an ork foot horde army and my buddy is known for his super flamer spam shouldn't we learn to grow a little so we can have more fun games and eventually find ourselves with balanced lists?

well, yeah. playing around with your list is always a good thing and at the same time if he has flamer spam then you might find new ways to beat it with a foot army given enough play

Yeah, adjusting to accommodate a new idea of the norm isn't awful.

Against my main opponants we usually know what the other person is playing, and tailor a bit accordingly. If I know he's playing CSM, then I'll be sure to bring things that can hurt MEQs, wheras if he brings tau, I'll bring some blasts to crisp fire warriors. Similarly, he knows what army I'm bringing and can prepare a bit for it. This doesn't guarantee that the lists we bring will be the list that they're expecting. Maybe my Ork list won't be all about boys, leaving his low strength blasts all but useless. Maybe he'll play a terminator heavy army or cultist spam. I would never take a look at his list then change mine though. If I'm at a disadvantage, it just means I need to step it up, not change my list.

 Lucre wrote:
But like if I'm known to have an ork foot horde army and my buddy is known for his super flamer spam shouldn't we learn to grow a little so we can have more fun games and eventually find ourselves with balanced lists?

NO! You must only have one list for all time, and never change it no matter what. And you can't take units that suit your local meta, because that's TAILORING!

In my opinion, there are two types of list tailoring, each of which deserves a different answer.

Type I: I write my list to deal with my enemy while setting up. This is bad.

Type II: I know what I'm likely to face, so I adapt ahead of time. This is good.

 Kaldor wrote:

 Lucre wrote:
But like if I'm known to have an ork foot horde army and my buddy is known for his super flamer spam shouldn't we learn to grow a little so we can have more fun games and eventually find ourselves with balanced lists?

NO! You must only have one list for all time, and never change it no matter what. And you can't take units that suit your local meta, because that's TAILORING!

good, now you're getting it ^.^

This is my opinion on list tailoring.

I can't think of a good reason to complain about it unless perhaps you winning too much will get other players to stop playing you.

 Ailaros wrote:
This is my opinion on list tailoring.

I can't think of a good reason to complain about it unless perhaps you winning too much will get other players to stop playing you.

Not to be Ted from How I Met Your Mother, but you have a typo in the title of your page Ailaros. "Taioring"

OP IMHO if you and your opponents are changing week to week to try and counter each other that seems fine. Heck if you were playing the same guy for the third game in a row and neither of your changed your lists at all it seems like things would get boring. But, if you change your list after seeing what your opponent has the day of, that's lame.

Besides you can always plan for one thing and him/her bring another. It's cinematic!

4TheG8erGood wrote:

 Ailaros wrote:
This is my opinion on list tailoring.

I can't think of a good reason to complain about it unless perhaps you winning too much will get other players to stop playing you.

Not to be Ted from How I Met Your Mother, but you have a typo in the title of your page Ailaros. "Taioring"

OP IMHO if you and your opponents are changing week to week to try and counter each other that seems fine. Heck if you were playing the same guy for the third game in a row and neither of your changed your lists at all it seems like things would get boring. But, if you change your list after seeing what your opponent has the day of, that's lame.

Besides you can always plan for one thing and him/her bring another. It's cinematic!

"Taoring?" Pot calling the kettle black? Jk lol I think I agree most with your opinion. I think list tailoring on the day of after you see your opponents list is down right low. But after the first game, I think you should adapt your army. After all, it does keep everyone on there toes and can encourage areas of learning. Me personally, I have a problem playing the same list on a opponent who whooped me last game. I'm so confident that I can beat him but now I see it foolish because its like running into a brick wall. Adapting my strategies should encourage him to do the same, and we may both benefit from new learning experiences. What are your thoughts?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Lucre wrote:
But like if I'm known to have an ork foot horde army and my buddy is known for his super flamer spam shouldn't we learn to grow a little so we can have more fun games and eventually find ourselves with balanced lists?

I think If you want to then yes. But lets say this is the first time you guys played these lists. Your buddy is all "woo-hoo" this list is awsome. Sure he can pound a horde army, but do you think its appropriate to challenge him with a new list? I can see your point, but I feel that the excitment of not knowing what you are gana face is part of the fun. What do you think?

Nythryl wrote:
When used for justice, tailoring is good, but in a game against friends, I would always bring my TAC list, if they started bringing hard counters and tailoring to beat me, that's fine. Ill bring another army next time, forcing them to play TAC as well.

There is no justice in list tailoring. You beat a good all around list with one full of cheap shots and tricks. Doesn't matter who the person is, or if they needed some "justice", you're using an underhanded tactic to get at them.

List tailoring is ridiculous. If one player is doing it, and the other is unawares, it becomes unfair.

If both are doing it, it becomes redundant.

Just play TAC lists. You shouldn't even know what army you are playing beforehand, and if you do, you shouldn't be making adjustments to your list to better defeat them.

That's hollow victory. Your list/army didn't win that matchup, and you didn't either. Your hard-counters did that for you, as well as your opponent's weaknesses that you wrote your list to exploit.

 coolbrobunny wrote:

4TheG8erGood wrote:

 Ailaros wrote:
This is my opinion on list tailoring.

I can't think of a good reason to complain about it unless perhaps you winning too much will get other players to stop playing you.

Not to be Ted from How I Met Your Mother, but you have a typo in the title of your page Ailaros. "Taioring"

OP IMHO if you and your opponents are changing week to week to try and counter each other that seems fine. Heck if you were playing the same guy for the third game in a row and neither of your changed your lists at all it seems like things would get boring. But, if you change your list after seeing what your opponent has the day of, that's lame.

Besides you can always plan for one thing and him/her bring another. It's cinematic!

"Taoring?" Pot calling the kettle black? Jk lol I think I agree most with your opinion. I think list tailoring on the day of after you see your opponents list is down right low. But after the first game, I think you should adapt your army. After all, it does keep everyone on there toes and can encourage areas of learning. Me personally, I have a problem playing the same list on a opponent who whooped me last game. I'm so confident that I can beat him but now I see it foolish because its like running into a brick wall. Adapting my strategies should encourage him to do the same, and we may both benefit from new learning experiences. What are your thoughts?

I was pointing out the mistake! Follow the link! I know from first hand experience editing school papers that even if a typo is staring you in the face, your brain will continue to fill in the blank for you unless someone points it out directly.

And following up, it is difficult to say depending on the group of people you play with. If you play with lots of different people/random guys at the LGS, bring TAC lists like The Captain said. But if you are playing with people you are remotely friends with, do as Lokukia said. Just talk about it.

I played a game just last week with someone who has many more years experience than me. It was 1250 points, I was playing SM and he had Guard. That is all we knew about each other's lists. Before the game started he said he had two lists, one with a Valkyrie and one without. He asked which I would prefer to play against. I said I didn't really have any answers for the flyer, so he went with the other list. We had a great game that was a lot of fun! We both wanted to win (I lost btw), but more importantly we had a fun few hours on a Saturday afternoon.

So really I am just agreeing with what many other posters have been saying. If it feels wrong, it probably is. If it doesn't feel wrong to you but others see it that way, you probably won't take their advice anyways.