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 Ailaros wrote:

DarknessEternal wrote:So you have to decide what's more important, the what or the why.

When I finally caved and admitted the models I was using no longer represented the army I actually enjoyed playing, it was quite freeing.

Well, you will always have a "why", or else you won't bother at all. In your particular case, the why went from "army I enjoy playing" to some thing else, not "army I enjoy playing" to nothing. Reasons may be more obscure, but that doesn't mean they're not present.

I'll use my particular example to explain what I meant. During my formative years of 40k, I played Eldar. At the time, Eldar were the elite army that had high-octane offense in a small number of bodies.

Over time and edition creep, Eldar changed, and I got more frustrated playing them. It wasn't Eldar I enjoyed, it was the playstyle. That army can no longer generate how I like to play, so I had to move on.

What I'm getting at is this: do you really identify with the scads of Guardsmen, or do you identify with the way scads of Guardsmen play? Your constant endeavors to figure out how to win in 6th edition with those scads of Guardsmen imply to me that it is the latter.

Briancj wrote:So, the question is: Would the return of an Aegis line help or hinder? Comms relay to help get reserves in sooner?

So, I'm a little fuzzy on this. In this case, my plans were decidedly hindered by my flamer stormies arriving before my opponent plopped guys down in the middle of the board in front of an objective. I'm also a little leery because while I want my reserves coming in early, I don't always want them coming in first, in general.

I'm starting to think of shying away form reserves units, though. If I replace stormies with basilisks, for example, then I have no excuse to not get an officer of the fleet.

Kingsley wrote:

Ailaros wrote:Identity isn't just something that sometimes gets in the way of useful conversation about various topics, it's the core around which our brains operate, and it's vital to human happiness.

The Stoics and Buddhists would disagree with you.

Stoics perhaps, but not buddhists. It's a common misconception that buddhists are all about getting rid of all desire and all idiosyncrasies. That which is in a person in such a way where they strive for enlightenment requires both. It's the BAD kind of these things that are the problem, not ALL kinds of these things.

When two zen buddhists greet, they ask "how is your practice?" This phrase makes no sense in a world without judgement (no "how"), or identity (no "your"), and no desire (no "practice"). The buddha himself rejected asceticism precisely because it was missing things required for enlightenment in its bid to get rid of everything. Instead of getting rid of aesthetic, he preached a different aesthetic which he thought was better (around which there is now a religion).

DarknessEternal wrote:What I'm getting at is this: do you really identify with the scads of Guardsmen, or do you identify with the way scads of Guardsmen play?

Ah.

DarknessEternal wrote: Your constant endeavors to figure out how to win in 6th edition with those scads of Guardsmen imply to me that it is the latter.

Um... Hmm...

I think I'm actually inclined to think the former is more important. After all, if what I wanted was an army that played like my power blobs played, it wouldn't make sense to play guard at all right now. As you mention, I would have moved on to a different army. The fact that I've been working with guard so hard to get something that I like rather implies a certain commitment to guard as an army. That I've been more or less staying in the framework of foot guard sort of implies the same about that sub-set. Plus, I've also played my guard army in different ways over time. Hybrid in 4th, power blobs in 5th, and now taking a reserves-heavy approach (so far) in 6th.

Now, of course, times change. If I can't run power blobs, do I run different guard, or do I not run guard. If I like assaulting, does that mean I just wait out 6th ed while playing an assault heavy game? Etc. In the end, I guess the proper answer is a hybrid of the two options you proposed. I'm rather stuck on guard, with a strong bias towards taking lots of troops choices. I'm not rigidly that, though, and I don't demand that they only play one way. I guess what you could call all of the games of 6th ed so far is trying to find a new style I like for the army I already have (implying the former), while also being frustrated with how this search is going (implying the latter).

So win!

First I'd just like to say I love reading your battle reports and am often saddened by the fact that you have had a rather bad luck streak.

I sometimes find myself in the problem you seem to have, play what I love or play what is proven to be good right now. I hate not playing what I love but loosing is not something can feel good if it happens all the time. I love me my Space Marines and NO other army do I really want to play, if I give up on them then I don't really see myself playing 40k, no offense to other armies, just not my cup of tea.

So far I have stuck to small games with interesting houserules that keep things fun and often makes me want to build strange off the wall marine armies, this has kept me happy for now but my old competitive side is coming back and I want the opportunity to build a fun army and take to actually win something, who knows when this will happen but one thing is for sure, it will be with marines

So sorry for the big scroll of text and I hope you will find a good niche for Guards as I can tell are the army you WANT to run

 Ailaros wrote:

Briancj wrote:So, the question is: Would the return of an Aegis line help or hinder? Comms relay to help get reserves in sooner?

So, I'm a little fuzzy on this. In this case, my plans were decidedly hindered by my flamer stormies arriving before my opponent plopped guys down in the middle of the board in front of an objective. I'm also a little leery because while I want my reserves coming in early, I don't always want them coming in first, in general.

I'm starting to think of shying away form reserves units, though. If I replace stormies with basilisks, for example, then I have no excuse to not get an officer of the fleet.

if i'm not mistaken, doesn't the coms relay allow you to re-roll reserves? (that means you can re-roll a SUCCESS as well as a FAILURE, so you have a much higher chance of getting your reserves in when you want them, and not when you don't?

 Ailaros wrote:
My last league list ended with:

1850: 820 boys / 1030 toys

In this league, it was...

1500: 745 boys / 755 toys
1000: 870 boys / 130 toys
500: 395 boys / 105 toys

For, in descending points order, 44%, 49%, 87%, and 79%, respectively. I don't know what my opponents are spending, as I don't have their codices, but in the case of this game, my opponent spent only 18% of his points on boys to 82% on toys.

What's interesting here is that I actually had a much easier time at lower point games. I don't know if that's just because other codices struggle more at lower levels compared to guard, or I was being most successful at 1000 points (didn't lose a game at this points level) because I spent the most points on boys.

I suppose it gets trickier the higher points levels I go to as I only have SO many guard models, and I only have SO much space in my deployment zone to put them.

I've been following your adventures sinse the dawn of 6th edition and I think this post says a lot.

For me mostly foot also works fine up to about 1000 pts. In my opinion the main reasons are:

- Opponents have to spend a relatively large amout of points on troops when playing smaller games giving them less options to min/max.

- GEQ target saturation works less at higher points. Mostly because all guns can kill a guardsman, so the saturation is not absolute. In fact all every enemy unit will have a target, even if it is not an optimal one. Still if you put 1300pts of guardsmen (87%) on the table turn 1 in a 1500 pts they would still be hard to shift, but as you have stated before instead you get problems with concentration of force and manoevrability.

- Other types of target saturation (Flyer, MEQ, armor) work better at higher points as you don't have to spend so much on troops. Spamming AV14, flyers is also absolute in the sense that a lot of units simply can't hurt them. I think this hits GEQ foot armies more than most as there will be many cases where you will be in a position where the enemy can hurt you, but you can not hurt them.


In my opinion you 1500pts army is weaker than the ones at 1000pts because most of the "extras" are not that scary (or reliable) and, more importantly, not on the table on turn one. This means your weaker (relative to the game size) infantry has to take more punishment. The result being they might not be there later when you really need them for objective grabbing. Maybe you should try a few of those punishers....

Whatever you bring to complement your infantry it must take the heat of them right from the start!

I agree with Zoat above. I think trying to play a balanced slightly fun list with what you really like in them is great and the only way I play. I don't think that sort of list can be expected to compete with Mix/Max, Spam or Tourney lists. I have certainly smashed a few with my IG but have also had my arse handed to me by Space Wolves etc too. I think you're trying to hammer a square peg into a round hole.

A lot will depend on who you actually play against which is tricky, if they're all loaded for bear and your trying to play Hello Kitty Island Adventure it won't be too pretty. I have some opponents who just want to have a good game and pick 'normal' lists, the list you went against is a bit of an abomination to me and isn't what I really want to play against all the time. But if its either that or no game it's tough.

Those Storm Troopers are pretty pricey and can be very unreliable, great if they're on target and on time, suck otherwise. Maybe swapping one or two for some big stuff, Basilisk/s or Russ. I like Russ as they can survive some firepower and pull some shooting off my blobs.

Also crippling bad luck will never help.....

While I understand you want to run foot guard, I just can't understand your list. Granted, you had a good shot to win this game with so much of your opponents list tied up in 4 punisher tanks, but a shot at victory still doesn't explain much of your force.

For example, you have storm troopers maxed out at 10 each but constantly rely on the shooting provided by a few models. You can nearly half their cost by running 5 man squads. You also spend scads of points on Chekhov with a mere 20 conscripts, when with all the points spent you could just start with 2 units of conscripts and have points left over, while gaining the ability to deploy both. I would run at least 40 conscripts with chenkov with a lord commisar near by if chenkov is your thing, maybe even straken, so that they are a more credible threat other than bullet sponge with zero offense. Your recycled unit of conscripts contributed nothing this game as far as I saw, and would have been better even as more las melta squads.

As for sentinels, I am still a fan of multilaser sentinels. I know the las cannons were handy here, but you could have easily added more las cannons with the changes mentioned. Also, khan rough riders are brutal, and 30 s6 attacks on the tanks would serve you well, provided there was some Los blocking terrain in the middle to advance behind.

Other options, seeing as your list is all foot, is infiltrating with harker. The cover save and damage of 3 close range special weapons would help. Heck, even switching to more veteran squads in general may help since you don't make use of heavy or special weapons squads for some reason in your platoons.

@Ailaros, great battle reports bru I really enjoy them but I must ask, what is your reasoning for not taking some vehicels?

I understand your not big on them so need to take 2 3, or the collossal 4 of this battle report but maybe one would really help suffice? I mean I'm not big on IG but I do know they pride themselves on their toys as you've mentioned. Obviously you don't need to run chimeras all oveer the place but still.

Another is on the quad gun ADL. why don't you take it? from what I can see your running gun line without the gunline xD. To a respect isn't IG about shooting crap and then running over the trenches after they've beat them into submission with all the BANG? and on the terms of the quad gun, why would you not take something to kill something that is currently unkillable with anything you have on the field already? You get defense for your guardsman and cover saves and you get anti air. those 4 shots make a difference trust me and at that cover never hurt IG when I play them especially the foot hordes like you play.

Well that's my intake, keep up the great reports and... do you not go to church or something becuase if you don't you need to because God seems to have no love for you and your dice xD!!!

Reading over your other thread about tough units.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/492433.page

Then reading over this I will try at giving some input.

First I feel his list...even if it wasnt tailored to fight you. It might have well has been. I have not seen a punisher used in I don't know how long...and this guy had 4... It was a hard fight from the start.

Your bad roll on the stormtroopers really did not help..I would partly through this fight up to just bad rolls/match up..We all have those days.

While still being able to keep with the feel of your army. (btw I understand your need to want to keep to the "feel" of your army. I am the same way)

I feel if you trimmed some of the fat from the list you could free up some points.

-Drop the stormies down to 5 man units.

-Drop the scripts and chenkov

-Drop the priest

This actually frees up 430 points! That is almost 1/3 of your army that really..Isn't doing much for that fight as well as tough units in general.

With those extra points you can do a lot and still maintain the feel to your army.

More infantry for sure.

I am not quite sure why you don't like the defence line but it might not be to bad to try that if you end up taking a ton more infantry.

Castitas wrote:if i'm not mistaken, doesn't the coms relay allow you to re-roll reserves? (that means you can re-roll a SUCCESS as well as a FAILURE, so you have a much higher chance of getting your reserves in when you want them, and not when you don't?

Umm... Yes, I think you're right.

That's interesting...

zoat wrote:- GEQ target saturation works less at higher points.

Or perhaps that's the pattern. At higher points levels, I'm no longer spamming enough. I think when I return with the new league, I'm going to more persistently spam my infantry even up to higher points levels.

You're right, this does cause problems, but perhaps I can find away around them.

DevianID wrote:For example, you have storm troopers maxed out at 10 each but constantly rely on the shooting provided by a few models.

Well, the stormtroopers are an anti-infantry weapon, firstly. The squads only have meltaguns in case there isn't infantry worth shooting at. Unfortunately, this is becoming more and more likely as my opponents mech up more and more.

Plus, having the 30 stormtroopers is a strategy. Throwing a few suicide units here or there is only measured by their killing power. 30 guys with good guns, better shooting, and better armor all showing up somewhere opens up an entire second front. I mean, look at this game as the perfect example of this strategy.

DevianID wrote:You also spend scads of points on Chekhov with a mere 20 conscripts, when with all the points spent you could just start with 2 units of conscripts and have points left over, while gaining the ability to deploy both. I would run at least 40 conscripts with chenkov with a lord commisar near by if chenkov is your thing

You see conscripts much differently than I do. The reason I take them in squads of 20 is because it makes them take morale checks faster. I want my conscripts to be running away the moment they start taking real casualties so that they can refresh themselves instantly (rather than the slow way of removing them voluntarily). I take SiTNW because I want to USE that ability, not because I want something in my back pocket, just in case. A lord commissar and a standard means that those conscripts aren't running away, which means I'm not sending in a next wave.

If I wanted infantry models that I wanted to stay on the board, I'd just take more PISs. Having infantry that respawn 3 or 4 times over the course of the game has been strategically priceless, and simply wouldn't have been possible without running conscripts in just the way I've been running them.

Dezstiny wrote: I must ask, what is your reasoning for not taking some vehicels?

No reason, really. I've just been on an all-foot spree as of late. If you go back to some of the earlier reports in this series, you'll see that I've taken several different kinds of artillery, a few different russes, a hellhound, some sentinels, etc.

In fact, I'm planning on coming back in with some russes for the next league.

Dezstiny wrote: Another is on the quad gun ADL. why don't you take it?

A few reasons. Firstly, I don't want to give my opponents cover saves from my own ADL, and because big scary things like lascannons have to stay at the rear of squads now, that causes problems. I want it to be a benefit ONLY to me. Secondly, it causes mobility problems. Getting my guys upfield has been a real struggle this edition, and basically ensuring my forces at least half the game of dealing with difficult terrain tests only makes this problem worse.

As for the quad gun, I'm not terribly impressed. 3 autocannon hits per turn isn't doing very much, and if my opponent has aircraft guess what's the first thing that's getting targeted? I could see taking one if it were a part of an integrated anti-air defense system, but as it's not... meh...

Etched In Pride wrote:This actually frees up 430 points! With those extra points you can do a lot

So, I've done more or less exactly that. I've been asking for input in the armylist section for a couple of weeks now, and I've gotten it pretty close down to what I'm going to do to make a fresh start. You can see what I've got going here. Basically down to russ loadouts now.