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The Infinite wrote:

 kaapelikala wrote:
Let's not forget WHY WYSIWYG exists. It is for easy differentiation of different models.

I'd contest that the only times GW have ever included WYSIWYG in their rules have been cynical attempts to force players to buy more models. But then I was introduced to the rule by Necromunda; when I read that I'd have to cut off my freshly painted Leader's arm to model on a power glove or else buy a new model (not available separately back then, even from mail order, yes I phoned with parent + credit card standing by) I decided there and then to simply ignore that rule wherever I read it.

I content that you are wrong. In 3rd edition, where WYSIWYG was an actual rule, they had it to prevent cases of confusion in games over what each model had.
The reason this rule isn't a money spinning idea, is that in 3rd edition they suspended this rule for the Daemonhunters codex. This was because they thought it was perfectly fine for an inquisitor to have some of his stuff modeled on their henchmen. So they did it for THEMATIC reasons, maybe they wanted to forge a narrative. Even GW knew that you couldn't put 10-15 pieces of wargear on one model so they freed up gamers to make their own custom Inquisitor teams.

Well the rule exists for a reason and trying to remember which models in TFG's army are armed with the plasma guns is now a lot easier due to it.

 liturgies of blood wrote:

The Infinite wrote:

 kaapelikala wrote:
Let's not forget WHY WYSIWYG exists. It is for easy differentiation of different models.

I'd contest that the only times GW have ever included WYSIWYG in their rules have been cynical attempts to force players to buy more models. But then I was introduced to the rule by Necromunda; when I read that I'd have to cut off my freshly painted Leader's arm to model on a power glove or else buy a new model (not available separately back then, even from mail order, yes I phoned with parent + credit card standing by) I decided there and then to simply ignore that rule wherever I read it.

I content that you are wrong. In 3rd edition, where WYSIWYG was an actual rule, they had it to prevent cases of confusion in games over what each model had.
The reason this rule isn't a money spinning idea, is that in 3rd edition they suspended this rule for the Daemonhunters codex. This was because they thought it was perfectly fine for an inquisitor to have some of his stuff modeled on their henchmen. So they did it for THEMATIC reasons, maybe they wanted to forge a narrative. Even GW knew that you couldn't put 10-15 pieces of wargear on one model so they freed up gamers to make their own custom Inquisitor teams.

Well the rule exists for a reason and trying to remember which models in TFG's army are armed with the plasma guns is now a lot easier due to it.

It's strange how I don't recall any reference to WYSIWYG in 2nd Ed (typically 25-40 miniatures needed to play) yet I clearly recall it in Necromunda (typically 8-12 miniatures needed to play).
And you reference a rule that "encouraged" you to buy more models (buy more henchmen) as a reason why WYSIWYG doesn't "encourage" you to buy more models (buy multiple, ancillary HQs)? Really?

Frankly, the one thing no company or rule system can mitigate for is the players, and TFG should only ever be getting one game from any other player ever. To suggest that GW have tried is charming and I hope you never lose your view of the world. I cannot see them as anything other than the self-professed model-making company that they are.

WYSIWYG exists currently only as a player convention currently (aside from power weapons). Saying that it's just to make you buy more models is ignoring the current purpose - to make games easier.

The Infinite wrote:


It's strange how I don't recall any reference to WYSIWYG in 2nd Ed (typically 25-40 miniatures needed to play) yet I clearly recall it in Necromunda (typically 8-12 miniatures needed to play).
And you reference a rule that "encouraged" you to buy more models (buy more henchmen) as a reason why WYSIWYG doesn't "encourage" you to buy more models (buy multiple, ancillary HQs)? Really?

Frankly, the one thing no company or rule system can mitigate for is the players, and TFG should only ever be getting one game from any other player ever. To suggest that GW have tried is charming and I hope you never lose your view of the world. I cannot see them as anything other than the self-professed model-making company that they are.

Note basic CSM need to have the correct combination of bolter/CC weapon modeled as there are 3 variants that have various point costs.

In regards to vehicles, most basic gear can be left off, although it is definitely more helpful if they were visible (also a good reminder to yourself that you have a searchlight if T5 becomes night fight or something). One of the things that should be modeled is any standard weapons. There is a chance that your pintel-mounted storm bolter is about 24 and 1/8" away from the last cultist holding an obj. If its not modeled, you can be sure that a disagreement will arise as to exactly where the barrel would end in 3D space.

Basic equipment, no need to model it.

Tournaments; see TO

Big Rule Book (BRB) the entire book is the game, the chapters are just titles of chapters;

WYSIWYG is NOT listed. However, the BRB does cover kit-bash, conversions, and your own custom creations, which is a "counts as" rule.
(BRB only mentions game uses GW/Citadel models)

Mini Book from Dark Vengence;

Does not cover what the BRB does, as you are playing the Dark Vengence supplement and using a reference mini book.

All the GW FaQs refer to the BRB, NOT the mini book. (because the mini book is not "THE" rule book)

Thus WYSIWYG is GONE.

Is WYSIWYG it in the new CSM codex that was released after 6e? nope? (as for Codex trumps BRB, and older Codices having wysiwyg, oh well, see below)

When GW releases kits that have ALL the basic equipment, and ALL the optional equipment in one box and you build and play what is in the box, (like warmahordes), then at that point in time we can start this topic again.

As for the Necromunda reference; Mordheim and Necromunda (both great games) were designed during the WYSIWYG and models played in the GW store MUST be PAINTED era, which is GONE. (note; after ONE game of either, you had to either re-model many of your figures, or make NEW ones, thus BUY)

rexscarlet wrote:
Mini Book from Dark Vengence;

Does not cover what the BRB does, as you are playing the Dark Vengence supplement and using a reference mini book.

All the GW FaQs refer to the BRB, NOT the mini book. (because the mini book is not "THE" rule book)

This is false - all the actual rules in the BRB are in the DV mini book.

@rigeld2

and the reference section with all the unit types listed that you NEED to play the game is in what book?

The BRB, which is THE rule book, in its entirety; you do not just ignore chapters, if you just use the "rules" chapter, then you can play the game with post-it-notes and pennies, so again, you do not need WYSIWYG.

rexscarlet wrote:
@rigeld2

and the reference section with all the unit types listed that you NEED to play the game is in what book?

Both iirc.

The BRB, which is THE rule book, in its entirety; you do not just ignore chapters, if you just use the "rules" chapter, then you can play the game with post-it-notes and pennies, so again, you do not need WYSIWYG.

I didn't disagree with that - by the rules WYSIWYG isn't required (aside from power weapons). It's a player convention.

rexscarlet wrote:
The BRB, which is THE rule book, in its entirety; you do not just ignore chapters, if you just use the "rules" chapter, then you can play the game with post-it-notes and pennies, so again, you do not need WYSIWYG.

No, the rules (or the rules chapter as you put it) say use citadel minatures.... pennies are minted by the Bank of England and as such are not GW nor Citadel models.

@rigeld2

yes, you are correct, lol...


Automatically Appended Next Post:
@liturgies of blood

Exactly my point; on page 2 (mini book) does elude to... "the Citadel miniatures used to play..." but does not say wysiwyg

The questions from the original post;

How do I paint and build/model the figures?
"The Hobby" chapter"

What if I want to equip them with weapons and wargear that does not come in the box, or the directions in the box do not show me how to paint and model them the way I want or is needed in the game?

"The Hobby" chapter"

What if I want some ideas on how to paint model the figures?

"Miniatures Showcase" chapter

All in the BRB, not in the mini book, which is a reference book for DV...

 liturgies of blood wrote:


Not buy more henchmen, put stuff on them. I have the book here, it encourages you to make your own models to make your own flavour. The book also says to read it before you build your army. That isn't buy more models that's read the book first and then decide what you want in your army, there was the lesson you should have taken away from necromunda. The reason GW "tries" is that IF PEOPLE AREN'T ABLE TO PLAY AND HAVE FUN THEN THEY WON'T BUY THE GAME. WYSIWYG was in the rules when GW ran their own tournaments, the movement away from this is because lots of people who go into the game do not like the tournament scene. The reason they dropped it is cos they, as a company, don't care about tournaments anymore.
The fact that GW is a company means they will go where the money is, does this mean they won't do things to get you to buy new models (flyer heavy 6th ed anyone?)? NO, they will but not every rule or facet of every rule is designed by their STOCKHOLDERS, that's why the design team exists and not a group of shareholder appointed money spinners.

Except you seem to have missed my point entirely; the rule was introduced in a game that required a minimum number of models to play, you could buy your gang and nothing else for the entirety of your playing life with Necromunda except for the WYSIWYG rule that meant, if you followed it, either converting your own miniatures after you've assembled and painted them or buying new ones. 2nd edition, a game that required a lot more model investment, had no such rule.
Hence, my belief that it was a cynical money-grab on GWs part, other rules may or may not be. That one IMO, is.

 liturgies of blood wrote:

Also your attitude to other players is the reason we can't have nice things. TFG isn't going to always be TFG, especially if they are young enough that they haven't gotten over that angsty teen thing. If you don't call someone on their crap and show them how to be a better person or at least try then you are no better than TFG, your parents just beat more common courtesy into you.

Thanks, I realise that my post was a little patronising and I apologise for it.
That said, it's not my place to educate every TFG that I come across, I had enough of that when I was working in a games store. It is frankly entirely acceptable that I simply not bother playing someone against whom I will get no enjoyment. Make it your life's mission if you will, I have finite time to play nowadays and want to have fun when I do.

I didn't miss your point I was bringing the discussion back to 40K. The GW specialist games have always been much more expensive. While necromunda and gorkamorka may have been money grabbing in their use of this rules, 40k doesn't seem to have been IMHO.

I ran a gaming club with some friends in college, the guys that act like TFG drive others away. I am happy to spend 5 minutes of my day to tell someone that screaming "I'm going to RAPE YOU!" into anyone's face is not cool.

rexscarlet wrote:
All in the BRB, not in the mini book, which is a reference book for DV...

The rulebook in the DV set is the 40K rulebook with the non-rules sections stripped out. It is not a 'reference book for DV' because DV is not a separate game. It is a starter set for 40K. The rules in the mini book are exactly the same as the rules in the full-size book. They're just printed smaller.

@rexscarlet
What? The rules are the section of the book called rules, nothing more, nothing less. The BRB also includes a lot of amazing art and fluff in there for my entertainment but the little book is still the rules. The little rule book = the big rule book in terms of importance.

The hobby section in the brb is not rules, the reason it's in there is cos GW have still got their toe in the custom models competitions. WYSIWYG is not part of the rules and how TO's decide what is a valid model or not is not in there either. So the OP asking about the convention of how to model when it comes to TO decisions and restrictions means the hobby section is about as much good as a damp squig.

The BRB like the bible in catholicism is only part of the equation, and only certain parts of it are important. The rest of the game is tradition and convention, like the faith.