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Even back when they sold the boxes in the shops they were useless. Still had to buy a model (or convert) to be your VSS, then a Heavy Flamer and a Melta Gun from elsewhere. Add in a Rhino and you were talking 50-60 for a single 209 point Troop choice... I can't even imagine how much they cost now.

Sisters are not Grenadiers or Storm Troopers. They are Sisters of Battle, the most elite fighting force the Imperium can muster, outside of the Astartes themselves.

 Glorioski wrote:

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:
The real answer is probably never. They've been marketed twice, and apparently never turned enough profit to get further attention. There's a valid argument that they haven't gotten a fair shake in their first outing, but the Necrons didn't either, and they're now one of the biggest factions in the game. The Sisters just never had that "it factor" in the hobby.

Not a valid parallel when the Necrons got plastics the second time around. SOB have no plastics besides the borrowed tanks. If by the "it factor" you mean, a box set of troop choices which don't cost as much as several characters, then yeh they don't have the "it factor".

The Necrons got plastics the second time around because the metals sold the first time around.

And no, by "it factor" I mean whatever "it" is that makes a product popular and sell. When the Sisters were first released, all armies were metal. The plastics for Space Marines were either 2 part mono-pose, or these rather uninspired multi-parts. But they were the only army at that point with plastic troops aside from the mono-pose Orks and Gretchen. Blaming the failure of Sisters on not having plastics is a flawed argument. They don't sell now (and over the last six or seven years) because they don't have plastics. But they don't have plastics because fifteen years ago, when they were originally released, they didn't sell enough models either.

This idea that Sisters would sell well if they had plastics is based on faulty logic. Where were these Sisters buyers when a Sisters army cost more or less the same as any other army? They didn't exist then. So yeah, while there might be a small minority of players who "would buy Sisters if they had plastics", it's likely not much larger than the demographic who originally didn't buy enough Sisters back in 96-98. That's how GW is going to see it. They offered the product on more or less equal terms, and it didn't sell well. They re-offered the product a few years later with an expanded range when it was only at a slight disadvantage (2003), just to see if the interest was there to justify the expense on a range of plastics, and the sales numbers obviously didn't meet their expectations for a proper return on investment.

Stop comparing what the Sisters are like now. What the Sisters model range looks like today, in terms of price and lack of support is due to events that happened from 1997-2004(or so). Everybody understand why very few players want to invest in the Sisters of Battle now. They're expensive, they don't have a good range of figures, they don't have a proper codex, and the one they do have is expensive and difficult to find.

The answer to your problem is looking at why they don't have a good range of models. And that's because, long in the past, they didn't sell well enough as an army to justify the cost of converting them to expensive plastic molds.

The point is the second time around for Necrons, they got plastics. When Witchunters came out SOB were still metal. The only other army at that time which was predominantly metal were Daemonhunters. So no they haven't had a fair crack of the whip in the plastic era.

 Lynata wrote:

Sweet Emperor, I still remember the people complaining about Soulstorm because they assumed Relic invented the SoB.

 Andilus Greatsword wrote:
Big compromise here - either keep the WD or get a new Codex with fluff abomination like Uriah the Pimp-Daddy and new units like THUNDERHERETIC CAVALRY.

This made me chuckle I must admidt

Strangely enough my local shop has a ton of SoB in stock. Im always tempted to pick up a few. And who knows what that would lead to.......

They are just in the same situation Dark Eldar were in before.

A release WILL come, there is no doubt about that and honestly, anyone who thinks otherwise is just deluding themselves.

They are going to get the same style revamp that Necrons, Dark Eldar, and Grey Knights got, compared to something like Chaos got.

It's honestly just a matter of when, and that when is when the kits are ready to go.

I agree - there was a constant Dark Edlar are gone, Dark Eldar are not popular enough to be re made, Dark Eldar will be rolled into the Eldar Codex for years and years......

oh and then they redid them and found it was a gold mine

Look back at the older models and see what they did with them to make them shiny and new. The Dark Eldar models were just not great as they aged - I still have loads and even use them as I like the mindset that they are disposable as the actual Dark Eldar (they will get revived)

Now the Sisters models I am happy with but they could be much more.

Sisters has every chance of happening and being a huge money maker.................

On a serious note, Sisters have 3 major problems on the table. First, they are power armored and compared to space marines, and they are not. Dark Angels, Black Templers, etc.., have a similar problem. But they are specialized enough to make them a valid different army. Sisters don't appear (to most gamers) to be anything else than a power armored gaurd army. Which leads to the second major problem. The sisters are not (perceived) as a long range or a close combat army. In general, this is true. Their strength is in the very short range shooty army. Flamers, meltas, and bolters are best here. In close combat, the sisters are weak against most armies, so this is a very difficult balance to maintain. Space Marines do not have this problem, they can shoot up close and still assault or be assaulted and do well. This leads to the third problems, subtlety. Sisters are a very subtle army, they require finesse to play well. You cannot see finesse, it is an intangible. Experienced sisters players, or all players really, can play two or three moves ahead. With acts of faith, a sisters squad can be greatly enhanced. Most people prefer instant gratification, and not long term satisfaction.

I won't say I like the WD codex. I don't. But I also don't dislike it. The Witch Hunter Codex put too much emphasis on the Inquisition. The 2001 WD Codex was probably the best. Simple, straightforward, and focused on the Sisters. GW needs to go back to that core to get players back. Plastic sisters and a new codex won't get new players. A good codex will, irregardless of models. Especially if it focus's on the Sisters, Faith, and Religious Zeal and less (not none) on the Ecclessiarchy and the Inquisition. Good models will also help, but any new unit/models must be appropriate to the army.

Rant over.

 Lynata wrote:

ZebioLizard2 wrote:So instead of Space Marines..You just want them to be Imperial guard? That doesn't exactly help them at all, except for being pushed into the IG book for being as bland and insurmountable IG is.

Quite a lot of Marine players dislike having to "share" the elite status with the Sisters. Just look at the Deathwatch RPG forum, where people rejoice at FFG "finally" establishing a firm distinction between them - so much so that even their bolters do less damage.

See, this is exactly the kind of strawman BS and credibility attacks that you always resort to. And then you wonder why I preemptively call you out as a troll.


Are you kidding me? And here I was trying to be nice. Yeah, I have a true scale Space Marine army. I barely play the tabletop part of 40K anymore. I just like the modeling side of the hobby more than the game, and Space Marines have a ton of opportunities for modeling because they are plastic. I also have a large themed Imperial Guard army that has Sisters in (as proxies for Stormtroopers and other carapace armor models), as well as a sizable Tyranid collection. In fact, the Imperial Guard and Tyranids were always my favorites. I played Orcs in Fantasy back in the day, and Middenheimers in Mordeheim, and Van Saar in Necromunda. By all means, please let me know how you can attack my credibility with those facts at hand.

What a complete joke you are. I was actually halfway through compiling a pleasant reply to you when I saw this crap.

You problem is that you get so wrapped up in your own opinions, that you forget that everything is subjective and that others have opinions too. Attacking the opinions of others, which you very consistently do with me, is what causes the kinds of negative responses you receive from me. Why is that? Because I don't suffer fools and I enjoy a good written lashing because it amuses me to write them. But I never attack first. I said, very plainly, that I understand that people like the Sisters the way they are, and that I have no problem with the Sisters the way they are. What I understand, again with the marketing background I have, which I was nice enough to tell you I have so you didn't have an excuse to misconstrue what I said, is that the Sisters have not sold in their current form. Then you asked me what I thought might work. I then, with careful caveat, gave an idea of what I felt was the problem for Sisters as a product, not as an army (again which I was careful to say so that you have no excuse to misconstrue it), was that, aside from passive misogyny, they were competing inside their own niche with Black Templars. My one suggested solution which you asked for, was perhaps that if the Sisters get pulled out of that conflict (sharing a space with a Space Marines army), they might generate appeal as a collectable army.

I did not say, nor imply, that I felt the Sisters shouldn't occupy the space that they do. I just said that they don't sell models the way they currently are. And they don't get supported very significantly because of it. Of course, I feel like it is my fault that I only have said that maybe a half a dozen times, in this thread alone.

Look I get that the fact that Games Workshop's lack of support for Sisters makes you unhappy. But that's no excuse for you to childishly do exactly what I said you were going to do, which was attack me as a proxy for your pent up angst and anger at Games Workshop. You have a lot of this rage, which you take out in passive aggressive, and sometimes outright aggressive, ways on other people on the forum. And then you stare about incredulously when people like me throw the BS flag at you.

So you want to get the Sisters away from the ladymarines image by giving them lascannons and sniper teams?

So instead of Space Marines..You just want them to be Imperial guard?

I don't "want" anything.

Are either of you actually reading my posts? Is the complete text only displaying for me, and the rest of you only see truncated versions?

The question was asked how I thought they could be revamped to create new demand for the product. I even said that may not even be the answer, because I'm not even convinced that they are a viable product at all. All I know is that they didn't sell very well the way they are, after two tries. You can have whatever opinion of why that is, but it still is.

Ultimately though, sharing some overlap in space with Imperial Guard is a far better thing than sharing a space with Space Marines. Space Marines are all consuming. They are Games Workshop's flagship product. What the other armies do is grab the remaining portion of the 40K market that isn't Space Marines.

The point is the second time around for Necrons, they got plastics. When Witchunters came out SOB were still metal. The only other army at that time which was predominantly metal were Daemonhunters. So no they haven't had a fair crack of the whip in the plastic era.

You're still not understanding that there is a causal relationship here. This Sisters didn't get plastics because they didn't sell as metal. The Necrons got plastics because they did.

It isn't about whether or not they've gotten a "fair" chance at plastic. They haven't. But fair doesn't have anything to do with it. Conversion to a plastic line costs a tremendous amount of money. Which means there is a significant initial investment in the product. If the Sisters haven't gotten plastics in the last fifteen years, it's because the numbers don't add up to make the Sisters projected to be profitable enough to justify the opportunity cost and the financial cost, of issuing a new line.

Again, I understand that this fact makes you unhappy. Stop attacking the business logic behind it. And definitely stop attacking me as a proxy for your angst and rage against Games Workshop. It makes you look foolish.

You're still not understanding that there is a causal relationship here. This Sisters didn't get plastics because they didn't sell as metal. The Necrons got plastics because they did.

It isn't about whether or not they've gotten a "fair" chance at plastic. They haven't. But fair doesn't have anything to do with it. Conversion to a plastic line costs a tremendous amount of money. Which means there is a significant initial investment in the product. If the Sisters haven't gotten plastics in the last fifteen years, it's because the numbers don't add up to make the Sisters projected to be profitable enough to justify the opportunity cost and the financial cost, of issuing a new line.

Again, I understand that this fact makes you unhappy. Stop attacking the business logic behind it. And definitely stop attacking me as a proxy for your angst and rage against Games Workshop. It makes you look foolish.

This is the same ole tired arguments there were repeated for years, ad nausem, for Dark Eldar. Exactly, the same.

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:
Again, I understand that this fact makes you unhappy. Stop attacking the business logic behind it. And definitely stop attacking me as a proxy for your angst and rage against Games Workshop. It makes you look foolish.

This is aimed at me? WTF. Do you have the ability to have a rational discussion without resorting to petty character attacks? If anyone is going to do that it should be towards yourself in question of why you care about this issue so much as to deepstrike into a thread about it and start your 'here's why I hate SOB' tirade. You did the same thing on this thread over at Warseer. What is it about the SOB that makes you so enthralled to rant about why they shouldn't get another codex?

 Sasori wrote:

You're still not understanding that there is a causal relationship here. This Sisters didn't get plastics because they didn't sell as metal. The Necrons got plastics because they did.

It isn't about whether or not they've gotten a "fair" chance at plastic. They haven't. But fair doesn't have anything to do with it. Conversion to a plastic line costs a tremendous amount of money. Which means there is a significant initial investment in the product. If the Sisters haven't gotten plastics in the last fifteen years, it's because the numbers don't add up to make the Sisters projected to be profitable enough to justify the opportunity cost and the financial cost, of issuing a new line.

Again, I understand that this fact makes you unhappy. Stop attacking the business logic behind it. And definitely stop attacking me as a proxy for your angst and rage against Games Workshop. It makes you look foolish.

This is the same ole tired arguments there were repeated for years, ad nausem, for Dark Eldar. Exactly, the same.

Except here's the problem, and why your comparison to the Dark Eldar are irrelevant. And probably what makes you think this is something repeated.

We don't have any of the sales figures. We only know that the Dark Eldar got new plastics at some point. So they apparently justified the cost. In fact, they got plastics twice. The first time was sheer luck. They got introduced right as Games Workshop was transitioning to plastic armies. In that way, yeah, the Dark Eldar and the Tau had an "unfair" advantage over the Sisters perhaps. But them's the breaks. Ultimately, the Sisters didn't sell enough to get plastics. You can't argue with that, because it didn't happen. Every other army in the game has gotten plastics at least once. Some of them more than once. Heck, there have been four new entire armies added to 40K in the mean time. And they all got plastics for some reason.

What you're missing, and again, I've tried to make this crystal clear, is that this stuff doesn't happen in a vacuum. Look, Games Workshop either functions like a business, or it doesn't. Some of you think GW is still run like a hobby in somebody's back yard shed. It isn't. It runs on numbers. Which is why the models keep getting more expensive, and have scheduled price increases ahead of inflation, lol. There are people on the back end, shareholders some might call them in this crazy world of business, who ask questions when profits aren't returned at the projected rate. So if Sisters were believed to be profitable, they would get new models. But they haven't. It's been ten years almost, since Codex: Witch Hunters, which wasn't even about the Sisters of Battle at all anyway. A Witch Hunters army didn't need a single Sister of Battle in it, lol. That should tell you all you need to know. But it won't. I know better than to assume the implication is clear to everyone.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Glorioski wrote:

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:
Again, I understand that this fact makes you unhappy. Stop attacking the business logic behind it. And definitely stop attacking me as a proxy for your angst and rage against Games Workshop. It makes you look foolish.

This is aimed at me? WTF. Do you have the ability to have a rational discussion without resorting to petty character attacks? If anyone is going to do that it should be towards yourself in question of why you care about this issue so much as to deepstrike into a thread about it and start your 'here's why I hate SOB' tirade. You did the same thing on this thread over at Warseer. What is it about the SOB that makes you so enthralled to rant about why they shouldn't get another codex?

Where did I once say they should not get another Codex? Point it out. Please. I would love to see it.

The problem in that thread at Warseer, which is the same problem here, is that Sisters fans get way, way, way too emotionally invested in the argument, and begin attacking me as the source.

If you make a reply to my post, which was a reply to your post, that clearly demonstrates that you are avoiding the topic, what else am I to assume you mean?


I am presenting the even keeled analysis of why the Sisters haven't gotten a new codex or new models. You guys seem to want to turn that into an opinion. Please, again, find one place in this thread where I have said the Sisters houldn't get a new Codex because I don't like the army? Again, I'd love to see it.

The problem is, just like on Warseer, I get a bunch of petty, angry people like you who cannot divest themselves emotionally from the discussion, and instead take what I say as some personal attack against them, when we're discussing tiny metal toy soldiers.

Get a grip and grow up. Again, I ask that you stop using me as a proxy for your anger about the Sisters not getting new models. It's not dignified, and it makes you look foolish.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Veteran Sergeant wrote:Anyhow. I'm sure this snowballs. Sadly, there are a lot of Sisters players who would rather argue emotionally than take a realistic look at why their army has struggled. And they'll try to take out their pent up rage against Games Workshop on me, lol.

I'd say that I hate being right all the time. But I don't. It's pretty awesome.

 Glorioski wrote:

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:
The real answer is probably never. They've been marketed twice, and apparently never turned enough profit to get further attention. There's a valid argument that they haven't gotten a fair shake in their first outing, but the Necrons didn't either, and they're now one of the biggest factions in the game. The Sisters just never had that "it factor" in the hobby.

Not a valid parallel when the Necrons got plastics the second time around. SOB have no plastics besides the borrowed tanks. If by the "it factor" you mean, a box set of troop choices which don't cost as much as several characters, then yeh they don't have the "it factor".

 Glorioski wrote:
The point is the second time around for Necrons, they got plastics. When Witchunters came out SOB were still metal. The only other army at that time which was predominantly metal were Daemonhunters. So no they haven't had a fair crack of the whip in the plastic era.

If from the above two posts Veteran Seageant you can put me down as a "agnst filled", "foolish", GW hater who is raging about Sisters not getting new models and needs to "get a grip". I should be qualified to say that you said you think the SOB shouldn't get a new codex. That seems like the level of discussion you want to have.

I said they don't have the "it factor".

You replied with a response that suggested you either didn't understand, or misinterpreted what I meant by the "it factor".

I gave you a clarifying post as to what the "it factor" was.

You then decided to get snippy with me and make a sarcastic reply because you didn't like the answer.

After all that, you then straight up lied about what I said in this thread, and over on Warseer.

Yeah, I think I pegged you just about dead on.

my gawd....

Dakka Rule 3 violation - please do not post spam pics it adds nothing to the conversation. - MDS

Yeah, that's pretty much what you guys all look like.

Sorry if the truth makes you unhappy. Don't get mad at me over it, lol.

Dakka Rule 3 violation - please do not post spam pics it adds nothing to the conversation. - MDS

And now the petty personal attacks come barreling in.


Like I said, it's awesome to be right every time.

Dakka Rule 3 violation - please do not post spam pics it adds nothing to the conversation. - MDS

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:
Yeah, that's pretty much what you guys all look like.

Sorry if the truth makes you unhappy. Don't get mad at me over it, lol.

Firstly I shall point out that the reason you get "trolled" is because you're a huge fething dick. You look down at people from your high horse and try to use faulty logic to make yourself feel bigger than them. You're not. This is the Internet and you're nobody, like the rest of us.

That aside, I will reply to your points. We have no evidence that Necrons sold well before their codex. As you mentioned earlier in relation to the Dark Eldar we have no sales figures. Secondly unless my memory is getting dodgy I seem to remember the Sisters codex came out in the dusk of 2nd Ed, right before the transition to 3rd. After this it was a very long time until they received their WD book, and even longer until they received Codex: WH, and the still with the same old product line (more or less). So it's very fair to say thy didn't have the same help that the Necrons had, as the first time they were marketed properly they had plastic kits.

Very unlikely imo. Extremely small interest in SoB over all => very low potential financial gain + GW's current policy of releasing stuff that does not need a new release (in WHFB that is) = rather pick another army.

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:
And now the petty personal attacks come barreling in.


Like I said, it's awesome to be right every time.

Acting rudely and condescendingly tends to piss people off. You may want to dial the superior tone back a bit if you want people to take you seriously.

Back on topic, Grey Knights were all metal and just as old as Codex: Witch Hunters and yet Grey Knights sold incredibly well.

Veteran Sergeant wrote:See, this is exactly the kind of strawman BS and credibility attacks that you always resort to. And then you wonder why I preemptively call you out as a troll.

If you think this is a strawman, visit the FFG forums and see for yourself. The vocal majority has been fairly clear in where they believe Astartes should be, and have expressed quite a lot of approval for this version of the setting. So there definitively seems to be a part of the playerbase that is convinced that there needs to be a huge gap between Marines and anyone else, that only Marines deserve the "epic". Obviously, it does not apply to every Space Marine player (fortunately), but you should not act surprised when this fact is mentioned in a discussion concerning a nerf to the Sisters' standing in GW's world.

Veteran Sergeant wrote:By all means, please let me know how you can attack my credibility with those facts at hand.

Intuition and personal experience. The same thing you used to attack anyone elses credibility here that dares to disagree with your assessment of the situation, before anyone was even able to reply to your post. To me, your credibility was already cracked once you started complaining about Acts of Faith back then in another thread, ignoring the actual Codex quotes I posted and continueing to misrepresent the fluff, and then resorted to insults claiming I would have "no idea what I am talking about" and that I would not "read your posts".

No, you will not be able to claim a monopoly on unbiased analysis here. We are all biased somewhere, including you. And you would not spend so much time posting in threads like these if you did not have some sort of stake in the topic.

Veteran Sergeant wrote:You problem is that you get so wrapped up in your own opinions, that you forget that everything is subjective and that others have opinions too. Attacking the opinions of others, which you very consistently do with me, is what causes the kinds of negative responses you receive from me. Why is that? Because I don't suffer fools and I enjoy a good written lashing because it amuses me to write them. But I never attack first. [...] And then you stare about incredulously when people like me throw the BS flag at you.

This thread proves differently. As do your posts in the past. You know what? I have problems communicating with exactly three people on this forum. One of them seems to be you, and another one is a fellow Sisters player. You, however, are catching a lot more flak from other dakkanauts than I do in a lot more threads, and not just from the Sisters fanbase. I really don't know what else to say other than once more advising to look for the reasons for this - and not just looking at other people.

But I'll let this discourse rest, as surely it will lead to nowhere. I felt compelled to post a reply to your initial statement since it looked like a lot of time went into it, yet I thought it could not agree with many of its contents. Now that I've said my piece about that as well as the OP's initial post I can just as well drop out.
Feel free to post another reply, though - even though I won't post again I will continue reading this thread, so if you have some last feedback ...

 Still Standing wrote:

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:
Yeah, that's pretty much what you guys all look like.

Sorry if the truth makes you unhappy. Don't get mad at me over it, lol.

Firstly I shall point out that the reason you get "trolled" is because you're a huge fething dick. You look down at people from your high horse and try to use faulty logic to make yourself feel bigger than them. You're not. This is the Internet and you're nobody, like the rest of us.

At what point was I a dick in this thread? I'd love to see it. Aside from pointing out that at some point, the argument would get emotional and people would start attacking me?

That's just the truth. You guys could have proved me wrong, then I'd look like a huge fething dick, as you so eloquently put it. But even you, with your very first post, proved I was right. /shrug


Don't get me wrong. I don't care about being "trolled". Like you said, we're all nobodies. But I'll happily point out that in the end, it's like the original ending to "I am Legend". You spend the whole time fighting me, thinking I am the troll, but in the end, you realize that you are the trolls yourselves.

So it's very fair to say thy didn't have the same help that the Necrons had, as the first time they were marketed properly they had plastic kits.

But then again, it's also fair to say that whatever happened when they were marketed "improperly", it influenced Games Workshop to make the additional investment.

Here's the final question. Why are the Sisters the exception? If when every other time, Games Workshop put the effort in, they managed to make an army successful, why haven't they done it with the Sisters of Battle? Why are they different? I mean, it seems to be a no-brainer, the way you put it. Give the Sisters plastic models: instant cash flow. Who is the apparently complete moron over there at GWHQ who keeps redlighting the project, and why? Why's he sitting on this gold mine and what would surely be a huge bonus for being the genius to make it happen?

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:
This idea that Sisters would sell well if they had plastics is based on faulty logic. Where were these Sisters buyers when a Sisters army cost more or less the same as any other army? They didn't exist then. So yeah, while there might be a small minority of players who "would buy Sisters if they had plastics", it's likely not much larger than the demographic who originally didn't buy enough Sisters back in 96-98. That's how GW is going to see it. They offered the product on more or less equal terms, and it didn't sell well. They re-offered the product a few years later with an expanded range when it was only at a slight disadvantage (2003), just to see if the interest was there to justify the expense on a range of plastics, and the sales numbers obviously didn't meet their expectations for a proper return on investment.

Stop comparing what the Sisters are like now. What the Sisters model range looks like today, in terms of price and lack of support is due to events that happened from 1997-2004(or so). Everybody understand why very few players want to invest in the Sisters of Battle now. They're expensive, they don't have a good range of figures, they don't have a proper codex, and the one they do have is expensive and difficult to find.

The answer to your problem is looking at why they don't have a good range of models. And that's because, long in the past, they didn't sell well enough as an army to justify the cost of converting them to expensive plastic molds.

Look, we know they are working on new Sisters. Trustworthy rumor mongers such as Phil Kelly have stated as much. What we do not know is why it took them so long, whatever you might surmise on the subject.

The fact is, the original SoB line was small compared to the other lines. It came out at a time where female based armies were even less common (and desired) than today, and look to have sold about as well as the old Grey Knights line. Like the grey knights, a major limiting factor in their expansions seems to be that GW just wasn't sure what to do with them - that is different from them not having the sales to move forward. Mashing them both in with the Inquisition was a stop gap. What GW should do, and is doubtless working on doing, is making the SoB range more distinct. I don't see any way that could, or should, involve making them into either 4+ IG or long range fighters. Keeping their current tactical focus and expanding the line to include more options should work just fine.

Which is exactly what they did with GK (and Dark Eldar), and that worked like gangbusters.

We have had Dakka Rule 1, 2 and 3 violations in here so far, have issued warnings where appropriate. Please get back on topic and concentrate on the conversation at hand. Try to be polite and remember disagreeing with a post is fine, targeting the poster in a negative way because you disagree is not.

 Lynata wrote:

Veteran Sergeant wrote:See, this is exactly the kind of strawman BS and credibility attacks that you always resort to. And then you wonder why I preemptively call you out as a troll.

If you think this is a strawman, visit the FFG forums and see for yourself. The vocal majority has been fairly clear in where they believe Astartes should be, and have expressed quite a lot of approval for this version of the setting

But I have never once said anything of the sort.

You're using it to attack my credibility and character without any evidence. Yeah, that's a Strawman.

. To me, your credibility was already cracked once you started complaining about Acts of Faith back then in another thread, ignoring the actual Codex quotes I posted and continueing to misrepresent the fluff,

Here's the problem. You don't remember what actually happened in that thread. I never said that it contravened the fluff in the codex. I said the fluff in the codex contravenes the established canon in a way that doesn't make sense, in my opinion. Yes, it was written, which makes it so. I just said I felt is was poorly written. This is isn't an issue of credibility. This is difference in opinion. Which I allowed that we could have a difference on.

Please explain, despite the fact that we disagree on the quality of that writing, where it is even relevant to my credibility when discussing the viability of the Sisters as a product line. Good lord.

No, you will not be able to claim a monopoly on unbiased analysis here. We are all biased somewhere, including you. And you would not spend so much time posting in threads like these if you did not have some sort of stake in the topic.

The guy asked a question. I gave an answer. You didn't like the answer, so you attacked me instead of the answer. The better question to ask is, why do you have so much staked in plastic toy soldiers on an unofficial forum that you will behave so immaturely? Is it because you enjoy provoking me? I mean, I can see that. The good news is, I like being provoked because I always win because I'm better prepared. But really, the logic chain has a few missing links here.

You, however, are catching a lot more flak from other dakkanauts than I do in a lot more threads

This is pretty easy to explain. It's because I'm okay with having unpopular opinions, and I am much better at formulating written arguments than other people. People don't like to run up against other people that are smarter than them on topics they think they are experts on. And they hate losing. So, naturally, they get upset with me. It's natural. I'm used to it. When you're a six foot tall, educated professional who was also a Marine, you intimidate all of the people who just hoped you would be another dumb jarhead. I break the conventions that a lot of people who build their perceptions of the world on. I'm stronger, faster, and smarter. /shrug. Again, it sounds arrogant. But in reality, it's just the way it is. Right now, there's some guy reading these sentences and already getting all mad and pouty and trying to concoct some clever reply about how much of an arrogant jerk I am.

I'm also a perfect storm of knowledge. I have an educational background in English (written expression) and Marketing (which is economics and psychology). Plus, I was a Marine, so I know warfare and weapons. And, on top of that, I have been around this hobby since the early 90s so I know the fluff really well, especially the old stuff that all of the modern fluff is built on. Good lord. Why would you even bother poking me with a stick? You know, right away, that you're outmatched, in almost all categories, because I am nice enough to give my background as a heads up. it's not arrogance. It's just the reality. I don't know everything. I don't go onto architecture forums and argue that buildings won't stand if somebody there says they would. I don't claim to be the Boss of Sisters and Sisters Fluff. My opinion on the Acts of Faith comes from a hobbyist perspective, just as your opinion stems from your perspective. And I've never denied you it. You, on the other hand, have tried really, really hard to deny me my opinion, on multiple occasions. That's what gets you treated somewhat brusquely by me. If I present an opinion, and you rail at me and call me wrong, that's a pretty aggressive stance. And I'm really good at aggressive, so pick your battles carefully. A better way to approach it is "I'd rather it be like this", or "I like it the way it is". Or, if you truly think my argument is built on faulty logic (with the Acts of Faith, it is not), then feel free to debate it. The problems that you and Melisia have is that you get too aggressive, and overstep the bounds of where you have any kind of evidential support. I'm very keen when that happens, and I'll point it out. I write very carefully. It's important to take the text as a whole, because like I said above, you apparently don't even remember what my argument actually was in that thread, and you've been making incorrect assumptions that influence your behavior ever since then.

Regardless, this discussion about business practices, not fluff. And I'm pretty well versed on the topic. When the arguments against mine aren't built on things that make any business sense, why do you wonder if I am skeptical of that analysis?

I thought it could not agree with many of its contents.

The thing is, from the start, I acknowledged that we have differences of opinion on the fluff. Notice I make no posts in Sisters fluff topics anymore. I've learned that people refuse to have reasonable, civil discussions, and that almost invariably leads me to be uncivil because I'm so much better at it than everyone else. I used to write and publish social satire. You think making fun of poorly constructed forum posts even causes me to break a mental sweat? Of course not. So, I just let you guys have your little threads because it's not worth the protracted argument that inevitably leads to hurt feelings, which somehow become my fault.

It saddens me that there is always at least one poster who ruins every Sisters thread. The names change, but the behavior never does. :(

Back on topic though, Sisters have a ways to go. I expect them to be updated no earlier than 2014. I strongly doubt that they will be squatted.

edit: For an educated professional with excellent everything, you sure have a hard time communicating without ticking people off, VS. Maybe tone it down a little bit.

pretre wrote:edit: For an educated professional with excellent everything, you sure have a hard time communicating without ticking people off, VS. Maybe tone it down a little bit.

I communicate with people all the time on this forum. Heck, I've been given all kinds of ridiculously positive feedback in the P&M forum, and had people say they were excited to see my feedback because they enjoy my plog so much. Heck, I don't even think they're that good, I just have fun building them, and will always deflect any praise back to the really, really good modelers and painters in this hobby. I just understand what kind of poses I think a model "should" have, and figure out how to achieve them.

Plus I write a ton of useful feedback, and tutorials, and give people ideas how to achieve their posing options.

But you know why there is a differential between Background and P&M Blogs? In P&M, people post rationally, not emotionally. This forum seems to elicit emotional outbursts. And I won't lie, I don't have much respect for emotional people, or stupid people. And I really don't like emotional stupid people, lol.

If people come at me aggressively, like they typically do when they get caught up being emotionally invested in plastic toys, they're going to get back worse than what they are capable of giving. I'm really good at being a jerk if you give me a reason to be. And I find it kinda fun. Sometimes I restrain myself better than other times. I've been a pretty reasonable dude today, in the face of a lot of very rude posts.

And the funny part? If I troll them back, I'm the bad guy. If I point out how they are being rude, suddenly I'm crying about being treated poorly, when in reality, I'm just restraining myself from turning the thread into a smoking wasteland.