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I'm trying to figure out tactics for a warp grinder because a friend mentioned skaven needed a tunneling team and i mentioned they had one. I haven't heard many using it but i thought maybe if you used night runners to surface and rear charge an enemy unit it might be effective. Also should it succeed and you have more ranks their steadfast is instantly canceled out. That said i have no idea how this would all work out and if it's even worth taking a unit of 50 or so night runners with a warp grinder if it has the chance to just die. Oh well i suppose it won't cost too much. Maybe it'll work. I dunno. I only want to use night runners because it could cancel out steadfast in enough numbers. It might be worth trying out.

What's the practicality of this idea anyway? I don't expect it to do a ton and i remember you can only have so many warp grinder for certain units but that said it could be beneficial. The point in using this is maybe i'll be able to rear flank which i get bonuses for in combat resolution, cancel out steadfast to a much more expensive unit and because when i attack in the rear flank more of my guys can fight than their's since they won't get supporting ranks even.

My main probems for this is that i think the night runner models look ugly and it's probably something much easier to do when i force an enemy to come at me and expose their flanks (good with warp lightning cannons usually). Another big problem is it might take an absurdly long time for them to come in and they may mishap. Considering the price of skaven and the price of night runners this may be entirely worth it but to cancel out steadfast i'd at least need a unit of 50 and that's somewhat costly for skaven but not that costly overall. It feels like quite a few eggs in one basket for a tactic that might fail. Then again they will come in it's just i won't know when. Maybe this is a terrible idea though.

What are all of your thoughts?

I think its cool- and definitely would be interested in hearing the results from anyone who's experimented with it. I think 50 strong might be awfully excessive. In my mind, their role is probably more to overwhelm wizard bunkers and units that otherwise think they are safe.

On paper it seems like a worthwhile experiment- I'm guessing they suffer a bit from being in an Army book with so many cool toys demanding attention...

Aren't Night Runners 5 slaves each? That's a 500+ point unit. Not having it show up puts you at a fatal disadvantage in most battles.

Aren't Night Runners skirmishers?

To my knowledge night runners are actually rank-and-file while gutter runners are skirmishers. They just have them positioned oddly in a picture or two.

For what they are base i don't think they're that good. They're 7 pts a piece with very few upgrades (slings, full command and not much else). With a 60 pts warp grinder it isn't terribly cost effective. They do have 2 hand weapons though so when they attack if they have 3 full ranks of 10 each that can attack that's about 41 attacks (champion). To my knowledge they have mostly clanrats stats except for initiative 5 and movement 6. Their equipment is also two hand weapons and throwing stars as base equipment. They can have slings but i think that would cost too much though probably not since they're 7 pts already.

With a unit of 50 that's over 350 pts you're dropping down just for them and 60 pts for the warp grinder or so. It's over 400 pts sure but they are core and considering most skaven core units aren't that good at all it's not completely terrible. My biggest problem though is that night runners easily have worse stats than stormvermin and cost about the same in base points and both are core. The only reason why i'd even consider these night runners is because they can use the warp grinder though it's just one unit of night runners that can. It's kind of like a wild card that i'll throw at my opponent.

Another problem is that i have to place a marker down at the beginning of the game or something and then i roll an artillery die and a scatter die to see where they come in. If it's off the board i'm pretty sure they die or mishap. If i roll a mishap in one case they're completely useless by being placed by the enemy and unable to do anything or possibly right in front of one of their death units. In another case if it mishaps everybody in the unit dies so that's 400 pts auto-dead and handed over to my opponent (a huge risk and huge loss if it happens). The 3rd mishap is that they all take a strength test or die and if they emerge into close combat they strike last and might have weapon skill halved or WS 1 not to mention they can't move or charge either. Plenty of skaven stuff is very unforgiving in its mishap chart (though a couple like the plague furnace and hellpit abomination are pretty forgiving) but usually it's worth it when it hits and it doesn't happen often not to mention the loss isn't usually that huge. For instance most of the time if a warpfire thrower mishaps it blows up or runs around and blows up but the destruction it unleashes is worth it and even if it can cause panic or kill your guys it's only a chance it'll happen and a handful of guys are a small loss to skaven. A whole unit and weapon team auto-dying that costs more than 400 pts is a huge loss for anybody.

It was more a friend suggesting i do this even though he never plays fantasy. With gutter runners i thought the warp grinder would be a waste but night runners could work. In my opinion night runners should be 5-6 pts instead of 7 esp. since two hand weapons don't reach over from multiple ranks and the warp grinder is the only weapon team they're allowed.

So in short i'll probably do this but only in a 'for fun' list or at least a 3k points or higher list and mostly to count this as my minimum core whereas plague monks with furnace and etc. will do more.

It's also too bad night runners can't be boosted like stormvermin or clanrats through tretch craventail, skavenbrew or similar. Many of these boosts are clanrats or stormvermin only sadly.

The main use of this unit is to flank in the rear after the enemy advances towards me because i shoot my warp lightning cannons and such at them. If this doesn't happen or the enemy doesn't re-position guys to counter the night runners then i could be screwed. Also if i remember correctly night runners have Ld 6. That's not a lot but oddly enough the best for rank-and-file skaven units and with 3 ranks would have 9 leadership base which is actually pretty decent. Considering they'll be out of the way so much that they can't take advantage of your general or BSB anyway and will probably fail horribly if they fail a combat anyway this probably doesn't matter a whole lot but it's a nice super small boost.

 flamingkillamajig wrote:
To my knowledge night runners are actually rank-and-file while gutter runners are skirmishers. They just have them positioned oddly in a picture or two.

Okay.

It was more a friend suggesting i do this even though he never plays fantasy. With gutter runners i thought the warp grinder would be a waste but night runners could work. In my opinion night runners should be 5-6 pts instead of 7 esp. since two hand weapons don't reach over from multiple ranks and the warp grinder is the only weapon team they're allowed.

Yeah, sure mate, I think Swordmasters and Warriors should go down three points since two hand weapons don't reach over from multiple ranks and they cannot taken even a single weapon team.

Not.

That's an excellent unit more than worth their points. Its problem is that everything else is almost always way better. Take a look at what other armies get for 7 points, especially new books, and you get an idea of what will happen to Skaven should they get a new book.

Hold on there, Mike old boy. Are you telling me that a WS3 S3 T3 model with no saves is a great buy at 7pts a model? Sure, he's got 2 hand weapons. And I5 and M6. He's not terrible. But he's far from "excellent".

Also, why would Swordmasters go down in points because of a limitation on a weapon that they do not use?

I've run Nightrunners once in a while. Usually in units of 10 with slings, sometimes 15 with slings and a Grinder.

You place the marker off-center to where you think combat is going to hit home, or next to some light, most likely stationary troops (war machines and small units with ranged weapons).
In the latter case, you pop up and shoot/charge for maximum annoyance.
In the prior, I usually end up positioning the unit so a few of the enemy units are in my front arc. The key is to keep them ready to do...something.
I've had opponents send reinforcements to a unit they thought was soon to be rear-charged. Or move troops a little out of position to avoid being shot or to get into combat with the Runners themselves. It's not the casualties they inflict, it's the psychological benefit.

The problems:

- the marker is put down right off the bat, so your opponent has some idea of what's coming.
- the Misfire! is rough, by Skaven standards (the only worse one is the Warpfire Thrower; ka-boom all around).
- you gotta' keep the marker at least 11" from any table edge to make sure you don't scatter right off.
- if the marker resolves under an enemy unit, you have to fight that unit, in its front arc. Night Runners aren't likely to survive more than one combat, so having to commit what could be such a disrupting unit so soon is disappointing.

If you want to try it, may the Horned Rat smile upon you for your willingness to work for your deviousness.

Warpsolution wrote:
Hold on there, Mike old boy. Are you telling me that a WS3 S3 T3 model with no saves is a great buy at 7pts a model? Sure, he's got 2 hand weapons. And I5 and M6. He's not terrible. But he's far from "excellent".

It entirely depends on one's perspective. In the context of the Skaven book the unit is indeed a bit meh. When I look at Empire, and being aware of the many differences and nuances that come into play at one point or the other, I see WS3 S3 T3 no save models for 6 points - and they're also I3 and M4, with no weapon team (and no detachment either) that also cannot vanguard, and we don't want to repeat the HE core tax debate.

Be that as it may, in your shoes I'd probably take them out once in a while and rely on GR 80 % of my games.

Also, why would Swordmasters go down in points because of a limitation on a weapon that they do not use?

I never said they would.

Are you referring to Free Company? 'Cause that unit is another I've seen zero of.

Also:

 Mike der Ritter wrote:
...I think Swordmasters and Warriors should go down three points since two hand weapons don't reach over from multiple ranks.

I get what you're saying, but c'mon, man.

If you're talking empire didn't you guys have an auxiliary unit attached to your parent ones that could basically auto-flank charge an enemy unit? I think that was in the previous empire army book. Forgive me for my lack of knowledge as my local GW won't allow anybody to read their store army books even if said army book is a preview book for an upcoming army and it'd only serve to entice new players (yes they are extremely stupid).

Also are you talking about warriors of chaos? Aren't they like the best most ridiculous core unit stat-wise in the game (decent for points too i hear) even without magic or marks/banners? I mean most things aren't even terribly effective against warriors of chaos unless they're already effective against pretty much everything else.

Swordmasters deserve to be that expensive considering they always strike first and re-roll to hit against pretty much everything because of their high base initiative all with a great weapon. Thank god they have a weakness in toughness and armor.

I honestly don't understand your logic. For instance i have the new vampire counts rulebook and the previously not so great units like zombies got a serious boost in toughness and strength and cost 3 pts down from 4. Also skeletons are 5 pts down from 8. These are both fear causing units, that are basically unstable and unbreakable and can be raised from the dead constantly.

Maybe throwing the vampire counts in a comparison isn't fair to this but they are both horde armies even if the play styles are different.

I dunno i just think night runners come from an old book and the supposed old army book rules and points play a factor. For instance look at the rulebook's version of all the standard magic items as compared to the older army books. The older the army book the more expensive base items were. I don't mean all stuff gets cheaper (sometimes if it's too good the cost goes up) but considering what night runners do for basically running in butt naked with no armor or saves of any kind with worse stats than stormvermin for the most part for the same base cost per model. Also considering stormvermin can have a banner up to 50 pts, halberds as standard equipment, heavy armor, certain boosts and a weapon team of almost any kind per unit (rather than a one trick pony of a warp grinder) then you understand night runners cost too much.

I don't think asking for them to be 5-6 pts is too much. Even just lower them by one point to 6 pts per model would be a bit nicer.

I'll even say i think there are a lot of units overall that could use a higher cost like war machines, some monsters (like the hellpit), probably teclis (though he should be seriously toned down considering the lizardmen should have a named wizard character more magically potent than him even gameplay-wise) and a lot of other units (elves, warriors of chaos and daemons of chaos).

Warpsolution wrote:

I get what you're saying, but c'mon, man.

What? It's a simple reductio ad absurdum.

 flamingkillamajig wrote:
If you're talking empire didn't you guys have an auxiliary unit attached to your parent ones that could basically auto-flank charge an enemy unit?

They once had that, yes. What's more, Militia cannot take detachments, as I have pointed out above.

Also are you talking about warriors of chaos?

No.

Swordmasters deserve to be that expensive

Of course they do.

I honestly don't understand your logic.

It's a very simple reductio ad absurdum. Your argument is:

P1 - Not having ability A is bad.
P2 - Unit X does not have A.
C - Ergo, unit X is bad (and should cost less)

Unit Y does not have that ability either. If your argument is true, it must be always true if the premises are met - otherwise, you have the wrong premise. You could, dor example, argue that they should cost 6 points for reasons of internal balance.
---------
Skaven most regrettably won't get a new book for years to come, so all of this is moot anyways. The thought of being nice to them via point reduction is a bit appaling though considering that they, like Daemons of 7th, get a break from most basic rules.

@flamingkillamajig: I'll agree that Night Runners aren't superstars. I'd even support a little change to their rules. But that's because I want to see more varied Skaven lists, not because the book needs to be better.
Skaven seriously rock the house; they benefit from being an army that maybe-kinda'-sorta' was designed with 8th on the horizon, and of still being just firmly rooted into 7th enough to offer some really wonky synergy.

Something else I'll point out, though:
Games Workshop really seemed to want people to play Warhammer the way they envisioned it. That is to say, with weird and new objectives in each game, with some crazy new rules you and your friend made up for the scenario, and, this is a big one, with real honest-to-goodness role-playing. They talk about their games like that all the time, and next to no one plays that way. I've tried. It's really hard, when your opponent isn't going for it.

Playing like this, Night Runners are a better unit. Their extra movement has let me nab cool terrain right away, either forcing my opponent to waste energy on them or giving me some cool benefit.
They're never going to do the job you want them to, charging in with a huge block. That's not what Night Runners do. A unit of 10 can throw out 20 sling-shots for under 100pts. Bless them Wth Filth, and you're good to go! Your opponent wants to charge them? You get 20 shots and then 15 I5 attacks, and, most importantly, pulled one of his units into an otherwise lonely little corner of the table at some funny angle.
Not every unit can be a Warpfire Thrower or 40 Furnace-pushing Monks. Some--specifically Eshin--need finesse.

@Mike: I know what you're doing. It's just not called for. The number of times I see that Philosophy 101 stuff in normal conversation, smarmy versus non-smarmy, has got to be something like 10:1.
If an opinion doesn't seem well-informed, let's inform then, huh?

I just say that night runners for the skaven book cost a bit much. Maybe my call for making night runners was too much for you but i think a reduction of 1 pt per model is a very small thing to ask for. Skeletons used to be 8 pts per model for the same stats and abilities that they now have at 5 pts per model. That's a huge reduction in points.

I'm not exactly saying the points for you are good either but i think that for what they are in the list and considering they can only take one warp grinder for all the night runner units you can ever have they cost a bit much for what they are at the very least for their army book (i can have 100 night runner units and still only one warp grinder for one of the 100 would be allowed).

I won't lie that the skaven army book is great but the empire army book to me seemed ridiculous. I fought a guy in the previous empire army book that used the 3 mortar, 3-4 pidgeon bomb engineer, 2 steam tanks, 1-2 cannons list with the emperor or something and it wrecked my face. You guys also have new weapons of war like monstrous cavalry and those huge weapons of war like the arcanum and locus. Once again i am not allowed to even see what these things do.

Considering the absurdity of the empire gun-line with war machines in high points games there's not a lot i could do in the last edition (except for the storm banner and screaming bell abilities) and i don't think that changed.

Mike i do understand that a unit with different abilities may not be right to compare with points but considering this is one unit with an extreme loss if it should mishap even once and 400 pts would go down the toilet maybe you should understand that. As for base units they can't even take banners, tretch craventail or skavenbrew to improve themselves and unlike plague monks or clanrats/stormvermin can't push a furnace/bell, use a banner plague monks/stormvermin or be boosted with almost anything other than magic. Even quite a few heroes can't help them even though tretch would work perfectly with them.

As for the whole comment of the skaven army book having 8th in mind i find that comment hilarious. Only one or two things in there seem to have 8th in mind like no partials with flame templates from warpfire throwers and not a whole lot else. Tretch sounds like a character with small units of clanrats/stormvermin and flanking in mind. Doom flayers which may have been somewhat useful in 7th are worthless in 8th even if you do flank the enemy with one (considering most skirmishers have shooting and most rank and file will just get steadfast and then reform and kill you next turn anyway). Jezzails don't have the sniper rule. I can't stress this enough that the previous empire army book FAQ's steam tanks to have toughness 10 and 10 wounds with armor save +1 in the previous empire army book and yet jezzails can't simply have the snipe rules even though they cost 20 pts per model and basically are huge freaking sniper rifles on shields. No let's instead let some dude with a pistol have the snipe rule. Sorry i just had to rant. The skaven army book barely had 8th in mind. Just by reading it you can tell it's a 7th edition book and was meant for such. This includes charging with plague censers which now have their very average initiative for their attacks and they're pretty elite. That said they still have a place but effectiveness of the unit has dropped a ton. It's still a very do-able unit but steadfast really weakens it so you get the idea.

---------------------------------

Anyway maybe your points amounts aren't fair for a base warrior unit. I don't know and i'll admit it. Once again my GW won't allow customers to even read the store copies of their army books to see what an army can do or even if they'd be interested in said army's playstyle.

I still don't see what the big deal is of downgrading night runners by one point considering the number of skaven. Even if you're going for fluff skaven they should have cheap disposable numbers. We don't have any really good core (slaves, clanrats, stormvermin, night runners and maybe a couple others i can't remember like rat swarms i think) while empire has knights if i remember. When i say not good i mean as a base unit rather than holding the enemy down or with weapon teams.

I dunno i just don't see what the super huge deal was with my comment. Maybe i need to see what your free company does or how viable it even is.

@flamingkillamajig: Your comment was not a super huge deal, as I said. I agree, to an extent.

But let's have a look-see, here: take a Clanrat (4pts), take off his armour (-1), give him a second weapon (+1), +1I +1M (+2), and add in Slinkning Advance (+1).
Boom. 7pts.

Now, he can't take all the cool upgrades, but all of those upgrades cost their own points.
He no longer fulfills the same combat roll. He fulfills a different one.
And why would you want more than one Tunneling Team anyway? How useful would multiple units popping up here and there, probably away from the general and BSB, actually be?
Also, a unit of 50 would probably have a hard time both fitting around units and terrain while also being in a useful facing. If there's no room, they stay down below (and next turn, the marker scatters again).

As for Skaven being designed with 8th in mind, I'll point out that I said that the book "maybe-kinda'-sorta' was designed with 8th on the horizon".
It's not perfect. We lost the Doomflayer and the Globadiers and such. But we still have plenty.
Jezzails with Sniper would be stupid. BS4? Maybe. Sniper-champion? Sure. But a whole unit of snipers with 36" range and S6 shots? That's madness.
Censer Bearers are fine. They're just not point-and-click like they used to be.

And as for the Empire, we talked about that list. He played to your list's weaknesses and had some damn good luck, by the sound of it. The Storm Banner is idiotically great, the Bell is good, we've got Gutter Runners and M6 Giant Rats and Rat Swarms. And, most importantly, our Cannons are better than his.

@warpsolution: I'm sorry you're actually probably right about jezzails all having the sniper rule. I thought it was -2 BS if you wanted to do the sniper ability. It appears you can have the person shooting it shoot at a different target as well and it sounds like only one model can probably do it anyway. The unit's champion can do it maybe as he has BS 4 anyway. I still think another -1 to hit on top of the full range and any other negative modifiers (they could use special equipment, woods, walls buildings, skirmisher units or anything really) would just force people to use other items but you think it's too powerful. I think it'd just force people to use more anti-BS shooting in units with their leaders and possibly plenty of ward save stuff on their heroes.

Considering some of the stuff done in the game i think it's not as OP as you can imagine. Throwing down a 200+ points unit for the chance to maybe kill off a character in a round of shooting is a bit good but other than cavalry killing jezzails aren't exactly the best units to have around and can panic very easily if done right.

Maybe it is far too powerful but i always imagined it'd make sense. It'd also force some thinking for the opponent. It's not as if a magic missile couldn't force them all to just pee their pants and run anyway. They are a Ld 5 unit base, i don't think they benefit from 'strength in numbers' (pretty much crucial for skaven) and are pretty much out of the way so generals and BSB's couldn't help them.

On average i figure if we're at full range and have a unit of 10 (or 2 units of 5 each) at -2 to hit from long range and using the sniper rule this is a +6 to hit for every guy. That means less than 2 hit per turn without having to roll to wound yet. Not counting armor or ward saves on the hero you're shooting at. That means with all the above and no armor, ward saves, special equipment reducing shooting, etc. that one toughness 3 or 4 hero with 3 wounds will probably die after two turns of shooting. It isn't unlikely to see some heroes with toughness 5 probably and there is still the lore of beasts even to boost some heroes. I mean if i had a grey seer on a bell unless i stood and shot it for like 4 turns it'd still be alive with its +4 ward save from the bell. The coven throne forces a leadership check on any unit that uses BS shooting at it as is (which jezzails would most likely fail). I just think this would force a different form of tactics with the enemy just like anything else.

So yeah i dunno i think it'd just force the opponent to choose different things. Most BS shooting that isn't poisoned sucks as a rule in my opinion just because of all the modifiers you can force on it. It'd probably just put a bigger target on the jezzails considering their killing power and their points cost would go up significantly to match this new ability if they ever got it.

Giving the Sniper rule to the unit champion would make plenty of sense and be really fun.
They're not going to take out a character on turn 1, but they're going to put wounds on him. 2 units of 5 (better than 1 of 10, by far) are going to wound a T4 or less character 1.4 times at long range, not including armour (though they cancel out a 3+ or worse) and Ward saves. At close range, it jumps to 2.7.

It's not insanely good in a vacuum, but it is very good in the game. Magic missiles, you say? They've got a range of 36", so they can easily stay out of that for a while. And even if you kill them on turn three or whatever, they still tacked 1-2 wounds on your lvl4 wizard or general or BSB, and combat can finish the job. Like your Bell-riding Seer. He'll only take 2 wounds, but then one round of combat versus WS3 S3 guys can give him the third wound and kill him.

The To Hit rolls aren't going to be great, but Jezzails are S6. They wound orc and ogre characters on 3's, and basically everyone else on 2's. And they can reach such a large area of the board.
Having even a small number of high-S attacks you can't hide your characters from would be a big problem.

This would force your opponent to take different tactics, but besides Ward saves and terrain, there's not much you can do.
And Skaven would be the only army that can do this sort of thing; every other army in a tournament would have to either prepare themselves for fighting Skaven, or just hope they don't. This kind of change is the kind I'm against; it's drastic and one-sided. Rock-paper-scissors.

Also, Poison-based shooting still suffer from modifiers, and I don't think all BS-based shooting is terrible. I'm a fan of Dwarf Quarrelers with great weapons; great multi-purpose unit. And Repeater Crossbowmen are stupid-efficient. And Glade Guard are easily some of the best missile troops in the game.

Jezzails didn't actually get much worse; it's just that 7th edition was all about small units of chaos knights, whom Jezzails are awesome at killing. Now, it's about medium-sized units of chaos warriors, who are harder to make a dent in.
All the same, I'd like to see Jezzails with a Sniper-champion and going back to the old skirmish rules. That's all I'd need to take a few of them in this edition. Making them better and more expensive wouldn't help at all; they're already too pricey.

Warpsolution wrote:
It's not perfect. We lost the Doomflayer and the Globadiers and such. But we still have plenty.

Having not played in previous editions, what exactly changed for Globadiers? I understand their range issues are sort of bad with throwing weapons, but I've found their ability to fire into any combat (not just slaves) useful on more than one occassion.

An opponent of mine did pretty well with a block of 40.
Gave him the flexibility of going 10 wide or 8 deep.

Night runners do something other skaven can't.
Operate alone, out on a flank, outside of the generals leadership bubble.

15 to 40 attacks at Init 5 and S3 are decent. It's not a horrible unit for 280 points. I wouldn't take two of them, but they do a lot that slaves can't do.

I'd consider a warp grinder, if you're running so many infantry that you've got over-crowding issues in your deployment zone. If you are going to warp grinder, I'd take at least one other warp grinder (with the gutter runners). Placing two marks, and not having your opponent know what's coming up makes it a lot better.

Another option, which is getting way outside a "Net List", is to try them with an Assassin.

If you run enough slaves, people might not realize that you have not deployed ~500 points. A big block lead by an assassin rolling down a flank can be a game winning surprise. Especially if your opponent thinks that it's going to be ~5-6 gutter runners popping up.

-Matt

@Steamdragon: the Skirmish formation hurt, of course, and with units of 5 Chaos Knights no longer being The Thing, Globadiers aren't as devastating as they were.

@HawaiiMatt: are you suggesting a unit of Night Runners with a Warp-Grinder and Assassin? Could work. Having two markers would be useful as well. Expensive, though.

Warpsolution wrote:
@Steamdragon: the Skirmish formation hurt, of course, and with units of 5 Chaos Knights no longer being The Thing, Globadiers aren't as devastating as they were.

@HawaiiMatt: are you suggesting a unit of Night Runners with a Warp-Grinder and Assassin? Could work. Having two markers would be useful as well. Expensive, though.

I like them with the assassin and warp-grinder, and then 3 units of gutter runners (with 1 or 2 more warp grinders).
Yes, it is expensive, but it's also 7 ranks of fighting infantry (Ld9), with a pretty hitty hero. The unit's worth the points, and 60 points to pop up mid filed on a flank (when you deployed heavy on the other flank), is really good.

-Matt

I don't doubt it!

Of course, then there's the scattering and Misfire! issues. With two-three Warpgrinders, it'd probably be best to go in assuming you're going to lose at least one team. Just hope it's not the Big Unit.