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So with 6th Ed well and truely settling in now, we are all, I'm sure finding things that we like and some changes we don't so much. 6th Ed definitely brought about a lot of changes, and added flavor to the game, things like mysterious terrain and objectives, allies and Double FOC all add an extra element to the game, which I personally love. However, recently I have discovered a lot of opponents aren't quite so keen on some of these changes. Most will avoid avoid playing mysterious terrain, which is fine as it is an optional extra. Most will forget about mysterious objectives unless heavily promoted, in my experience. However a lot of these same people will use allies without a blink of the eye, which is fine by me, however they won't for the most part allow you to use the double FOC at 2k.

Now I don't follow the competitive circuit and I am for the most part a beer and takeout kind of player, I have no problem with people playing highly optimized lists and using allies to help them achieve this, I understand that this is what makes the tournament circuit 'competitive'. I also have no problem with people using the allies chart to add extra flavour to their army. But (and here it is, begin the troll fest) I have recently began playing Tyranids (no this isn't another, GW give us allies, why, boohoo rant) and obviously 'Nids can't take allies, which I wholly agree with, we shouldn't get allies, it doesn't work. Even at a stretch giving us IG as cults wouldn't work well IMO. However what GW did give us, in the rules, is the FOC doubling at 2K. Which I feel is a god send for 'Nids as there is some heavily contested FOC slots.

So my biggest problem with this is, when sorting out a game, agreeing points limit, 2k, yeah fine, single or double FOC, I'd prefer just single, it's what the tournaments do. Well in that case I'd rather you didn't use and allies or battlements. I can't say that, I just sound like a d ck, and it gets the game off on the wrong foot, and portrays me as a bad person to play against, which I'm really not, (I don't feel), I'll let people off on quite a lot, so what if you forgot to roll your It Will not Die test at the end of your turn, roll it in my movement, big deal. As long as it's not going to break the game I'm happy.

I haven't really got a point with the super long post, just needed to get something off my chest, and not quite as coherently as I'd hoped, however I will happily discuss this with anyone, but please, the sun is almost up, don't Troll, I wouldn't want you to turn to stone.

Thanks, ElderCaveman

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X5Izm1LQfw4
ill just leaave this here... hope it lightens ur day

I think the last line of that video sums it all up,

'Ahhh you can keep him'

Thanks for that

People won't allow you to use the double FOC at 2k?

Show it to them in the rules, it's not at all an optional thing, it's right there. If a game is above 1999 points, FOC is doubled. You can take a secondary detachment.

its ok also ...http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2fxVeAVl2I8
i watch it when i feel sad lolz mostly the song helps



Edit: the joys of pc gaming

To me, the Mysterious terrain is just to complicated sometimes, and is objectives.

If they won't play you just move on to a new opponent. If that isn't an option tell them politely since they're using the allies rules your using the double FOC. ORRR just don't tell them and use the list. If they complain just tell them it's no different taking allies or double FOC especially for tyranids.

Edit:and if they tell you single force org because its what tournaments do. Tell them they aren't playing a tournament, they're playing a friendly game...

Hmm all pretty sound advice, a lot of people say 1999+1, to which the answer is 2000, if they finish the sum

Yeah, I wouldn't even bother asking about the double chart in the current rules. If you're playing 2K, you get two FoCs.

Yeah maybe that is the better way of doing it, no one asks if they can use allies or fortifications, so why should I always ask if they mind me using double FOC

Hi,

I can really understand your frustration with this type of thing. It's happened with me before. Like others have said if you're playing 2K just use the double FoC, Any player worth their salt will welcome more big things to kill (unless you're going for more of a horde based thing, which is still great to play against). Also if someone don't wanna play the rules it usually because they're the type of person who NEEDS to win, or something along those lines, and it's better off going for the beer you talked about, because; again in my experience, It's never a fun game.

Also great Video, I'll forward this to my group.

EdO

Eldercaveman wrote:
Hmm all pretty sound advice, a lot of people say 1999+1, to which the answer is 2000, if they finish the sum

Yeah, that's just stupid. 1999+1 is for people who are terrified of admitting that their "no double FOC" house rule is a house rule and have to pretend that they've found some kind of clever loophole. This should tell you a lot about the kind of player you're dealing with, and let you avoid them.

I agree. You laid out your reasons very clearly and it makes complete sense, I dont see how your opponents could disagree with that. If they want to use allies, you get the double FOC at 2k points. Its the only way youll be able to match them for choices otherwise.

Yeah it does seem like a quite clear decision on GW's part of making things more flexible for codex's that need the extra room. And obviously it means bigger army and more shiny toys sold, which is fine they are a company, that's what they are supposed to do. Sadly at the minute though, I am very limited to the people I can play, as you will see from my signature.

To be perfctly honest, I see both sides on this. I think the most fair option is somewhere in the middle.

Allies and 2 FoC are clearly defined in the rules. Playing 2000 points or more clearly says both can use double FoC.

1999+1 is a cute house rule that's been widely adopted.

If your opponent wants a 2k game, but single FOC (House Rule 1), what about letting you take Tyranid allies (House Rule 2)?

I understand this option is not in the rules, hence House Rule. This rule allows you to stay in the weapons race by opening up the same number of total FoC slots without bringing a 2nd full FoC.

If I were to play against Nids I would allow double FOC because they don't get allies. Against anyone else I say I want to play 1999 no double FOC. I don't personally like Double FOC or the mysterious crap it always seems to bite me in the ass and help my opponent and I don't like that kind of random element in the middle of my game. Random psychic powers and warlord traits are enough randomness for me.

Before you say I am just complaining against the terrain because I lost one game from it, let me share this with you. I was playing in a league and we were using the Warzone traits found in the back of the book, I was playing Grey Knights and 3 out of the 6 games I played in we rolled the Psychic Deadzone warzone trait. Imagine a 2k Grey Knight force that could not use psychic powers. Yea it pretty much sucked, I know that shouldn't happen but it did.

Objectives and mysterious terrain affect both players in the game.
Picking allies only affects one player.
The 2x FOC is a rule that affects both, and 1999+1 is not a rule in the RBR.
But, the allies rules basically work like a 1.5 FOC chart. (I know, just 1 of HS, Elites and FA, but you know what I mean).

So, if they want allies, you're more than justified is playing a 2000 point game with both FOCs. They can if you can, and you have no option to take allies.

They're picking on your army, and effectively cheating to disallow you your 2nd FOC slots.

Edit: Does it limit the allies FOC to just 1 extra codex? Can you take 2 allies? Just thinkiing aloud.

Dont play tyranids , which are a bad army . when all other players are fine with 1999 or lower games , fortifications and ally . nids arent . there is no way a group of 40-50 players will change the points played just to make 2-3 people happy.

If everyone stopped playing their "bad army", how many does that leave?
I get told my Eldar codex is "bad", but I will keep playing it.

The problem the OT has is not with the army or the rules, but the players who change the rules to suit themselves.

Makumba wrote:
Dont play tyranids , which are a bad army . when all other players are fine with 1999 or lower games , fortifications and ally . nids arent . there is no way a group of 40-50 players will change the points played just to make 2-3 people happy.

@OP: Ignore people like this. Saying, "I get allies but you can't have 2x FOC at 2k" is cheating plain and simple. The BRB is black and white in this regard; at Xpts size, the FOC doubles.

The doubling of the org chart is GW giving Xenos players a bit of a buff because the FOC structure hurts us a helluva lot more than it does MEQ's in general.
Unlike all those MEQ players who can take multiple genralist units, Xenos armies typically are full of specialists. Where a Space Wolf or Blood Angel or GK player for example can take a Grey Hunter or Assault squad or Strike Squad and cover multiple abilties ranging from anti-tank + anti-horde + decent combat ability including ap2/3 weapon(s), a Xenos army typically requires 2-3 individual units to do all that.

Anyone with an attitude like the above is not worth your time because they don't give a flying rat's fart about you having an enjoyable experience, only them winning a game of little plastic toy soldiers.

Its a rule not an option as others have said.

If they want to agree a House Rule so its not used, well that sets a prescedent for other things.............if they are only playing games of 1999 or less - that s unfair.

I am not keen on the double FOC myself - as most armies really did not need it and I thought it could have been at 3000pts - however I can see that its a needed thing for Tryanids - I just wish they could have given the Nids something else.....

But then I wish they had released a general shiny 6th Ed Codex update for ALL armies - nice book it could have been, rather than doing one every 6 months or so and never finishing. Then they could have just done new stuff and new armies..........(Adeptus Mechanicus, a book of general allies and mercenaries, new Alien races)

Double FOC is a rule and I agree with the statement that you don't need to ask if you can use it or not. The people who keep saying "one FOC only" or the "1999+1 points" propably just think that the double FOC will make an army too powerful but don't really see that it can screw over the whole list if bad unit choices are made.