Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

So, I have been reading the new ABG list from IA1 2nd ed. I don't know how many people have had a chance to look this over but I thought I would start some discussion on the subject.

I don't know if it is necessary to state this, but I intend this thread to ignore any "Forge World Legality" discussions, as they seem to crop up 90% of the time Forge World is discussed. Not trying to make a statement on either side of that discussion, just that it is beyond the scope of this thread.

Anyway, on with some draft ideas I have been having, a few random musings really to kick things off.

Firstly, I think it is almost mandatory to take some C:IG allies to provide the scoring units for this army. Not that scoring cannot be done with ABG fist squads, just that it frees up a lot of troop slots if you outsource the role. I am thinking of a cheap primaris psyker and a single mounted infantry platoon, providing the most resilient scoring units for the points. This has a basic cost of around 300 points, and could hang around behind the main tank line for support. Using veterans is possible but I feel that it uses up to many point, when the heavy tanks should be doing the main killing of the list. Veterans also need to expose themselves much more to put down their firepower.

I really like the look of a vanquisher command tank as the warlord for this army. Coax stubber and lascannon seem good choices, maybe with some melta sponsons for close support. Taking the optional ammunition, beast hunter rounds (small blast ID) seems like a good choice, although bumps the price up a bit. Vanquisher command tanks just seem right to me, very nice centrepiece and able to stay back from the front lines.

Elites seem ok but I am not that impressed. I would rather have deep striking stormtroopers than mounted ones and commissar tanks hold less appeal to me now they are elites.

The troop section seems to me like it is best filled up with russ hulls. AF squads are easier to do with allies, and AF vets seem over costed to me. Vets cost the same as in the codex, yet you only get five. I assume they forgot to lower the base price when they decided to let you buy up to five extra vets.

Fast attack seems similar to the codex, and although you can only get up to one gunship (vendetta/vulture), they can take the navy vehicle upgrades. A vendetta with flares could be good if you need an improved jink save against missiles, although the worst skyfire weaponry is usually a lascannon or an autocannon.

Heavy support seems to be where I would go for air defence, taking a hydra or some flakk missile HWSs. Also, HWSs can take voxes, which could be fun.

Over all I like the look of this list. Stick a load of cheap LRBT/Demolisher with just flamers in the troops, some air cover in the heavy, harassment in the the fast and then ally in some scoring units. Looking forward to giving them an outing.

I also think they would work very well as allies for an army that wants some extra armour, more so than C:IG would. You get a "cheap Pask" HQ, some tanks and a vendetta squadron. Good for forces that don't need the extra troops, or standard C:IG who just want that extra russ without using squadrons.

So, has anyone else been thinking about ABG? Seems like a nice update to me.

I unfortunately don't have the new book, as I already have the IA vol. 1 (first edition) book, so I haven't read the new rules yet, as I don't know if I will be getting the second edition.
I still know that the point of the old Armoured Battlegroup was to put so much heavy armoued firepower on the table that the opponent was simply forced into cover and blown to bits in short order. It still sounds like it could be played very well this way (armoured fist squads supported by lots of leman russ tanks and artillery), but it also seems like the list has gotten a lot more mobile with the addition of flyers, veterans and stormtroopers.

Yes, the list can be made very mobile now. In fact, it could make a very good mech vet list, if there wasn't the weird glitch in vet pricing.

Where could I find this book as I am interested in the ABG, dont think I will ever get to really play it but it would be to build up an army as I go on with my IG army.

Is there a new allies matrix in the book?

Otherwise, if the list counts as IG you cannot ally in anything from Codex:IG...

tankboy145 wrote:
Where could I find this book as I am interested in the ABG, dont think I will ever get to really play it but it would be to build up an army as I go on with my IG army.

On the Forge World website:

http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/New_Stuff/IMPERIAL_ARMOUR_VOLUME_ONE_SECOND_EDITION_IMPERIAL_GUARD.html

 Banesword wrote:
Is there a new allies matrix in the book?

Otherwise, if the list counts as IG you cannot ally in anything from Codex:IG...

They have the same matrix as C:IG, except they are also battle brothers to C:IG. It is an additional rule at the start of the list.

Thanks much appreciated!

Got my order in for the new book. In anticipation of the new ABG I had been working on an IG ally force. I have probably invested too many points in it. PriPsy for HQ with two veteran squads, one with Harker and snipers of all things, the other kitted up in a chimera. Plus a Valk. I have used the group allied with space marines a few times and they fill the role I'd use them in an ABG well. Harkers squad becomes very flexible in deployment, with the options of infiltrating or grav shoot deploying from the Valk.

After some more thought, I may have been you hasty to jump at allies. I just assumed that individual tanks would be better than squadrons. However, squadrons do have some advantages:

1: The whole squadron benefits from an order.
2: The whole squadron can outflank with the warlord trait.
3: The "primaris tax" can be avoided by consolidating troop choices into squadrons.

Not to mention the advantages that squadrons can bring in 6th.

Still waiting on my copy of the book before I commit to a list, but my initial thoughts based on what people have said about the book:

1) With veterans in the list whether or not I take allies will depend on what FW did to my beloved Hades drills. If the attached "veteran assault squad" for the drill is no longer a proper BS 4 plasma/melta delivery squad then I'll probably just use ABG veterans. Whether or not the 5-man squad price gets fixed it's an interesting option, Centaurs are a tiny model that can easily hide behind any terrain/larger tanks/etc and stay out of LOS until they're needed. Meanwhile armored fist squads are just normal infantry with the Chimeras you'd want to bring anyway, so there's no reason to take codex platoons if you aren't going to take advantage of codex-only Sabre guns or combined squads.

2) My initial guess for the basic structure is a HQ Vanquisher, 2-3 tanks divided between LRBT/Executioner/Demolisher/Destroyer depending on my mood, 2-3 veteran squads, 2 Medusa, 1-3 air support. Some of this is based on the models I have right now (few Leman Russes but some nice artillery), but I think overall it's a good start.

Ah, so they can be taken as an ally, that's excellent news for my orks...

 Peregrine wrote:
With veterans in the list whether or not I take allies will depend on what FW did to my beloved Hades drills.

I was looking at them too, so I may as well point out some of the bigger changes compared to the dkok pdf:

- Elite choice for codex/dkok
- Standard vets, just with 2 specials and some different options
- Coming up under an enemy will cause a mishap, unless its attack clears the area

It does get a few positives though, such as a save against rams and the ability to damage infantry with tank shock. Losing scoring is a big hit though, although it gets a decent price drop too.

 Trickstick wrote:
After some more thought, I may have been you hasty to jump at allies. I just assumed that individual tanks would be better than squadrons. However, squadrons do have some advantages:

1: The whole squadron benefits from an order.
2: The whole squadron can outflank with the warlord trait.
3: The "primaris tax" can be avoided by consolidating troop choices into squadrons.

Not to mention the advantages that squadrons can bring in 6th.

Tanks can get ORDERS now?!?!?

 MrMoustaffa wrote:

 Trickstick wrote:
After some more thought, I may have been you hasty to jump at allies. I just assumed that individual tanks would be better than squadrons. However, squadrons do have some advantages:

1: The whole squadron benefits from an order.
2: The whole squadron can outflank with the warlord trait.
3: The "primaris tax" can be avoided by consolidating troop choices into squadrons.

Not to mention the advantages that squadrons can bring in 6th.

Tanks can get ORDERS now?!?!?

Hah, Moustaffa you're sick.

One day we need to play a doubles game. You field all tanks, I'll run my aircav. We'll say "wanna play 2v2, we both run guard." and deployment will just leave them slackjawed

Yeah, they are pretty limited though. Still nice.

50% chance to succeed. Three types:

Fire on my target style order,
Move move move style order,
"Go to ground" style, except against melee.

The bad thing is only one order per turn for your command tank. The good thing is 24" range, comms upgrade adds range.

People often think I hate tanks because I never want to use chimeras. They are wrong.

I love tanks. Those armored tissue boxes called chimeras are not worthy of the name tank.

I will be getting this book, and someday I will field that army of nothing but leman russ tanks of various types.

And it will be FRIGGIN GLORIOUS.

Only sad that the tank abilities are gone, I wanted to have a punisher with the ace gunner skill shooting 29 S6 shots a turn against vehicles.

And it's still bullcrap we can't have commissar Punisher tanks.

I mean really, nothing instills discipline like 10,000 bulle-er I mean Demerits a minute!

I hadn't noticed the lack of Commissar punishers. Maybe the Munitorium banned them from using punishers after "the incident".

I'm not that sad to see ace skills gone, it was basically "take slick loader or ace gunner on every tank". I would rather take more tanks and not feel like I am losing out.

I am currently debating whether or not my command alpha pattern vanquisher is worth the artificer hull upgrade (+1sp). It would bump the cost up to 225 without sponsons, which seems too much. I mean, I already splashed out to get the blast shells for it, although that is more for nostalgia really.

 Trickstick wrote:
I was looking at them too, so I may as well point out some of the bigger changes compared to the dkok pdf:

- Elite choice for codex/dkok
- Standard vets, just with 2 specials and some different options
- Coming up under an enemy will cause a mishap, unless its attack clears the area

It does get a few positives though, such as a save against rams and the ability to damage infantry with tank shock. Losing scoring is a big hit though, although it gets a decent price drop too.

No scoring? Only two special weapons? you FW, that just ruins my current army.

Something I realized about the armored company list, is that allied with regular IG it could be absolutely disgusting.

4 independent vendettas with meltavets flying around in them, plus you've got up to 7 independent russ slots if you want them.

Almost everything on the board would either be in a flying AV 12 hull or an AV 14 tank.

Probably not the most efficient build, but that would definitely look scary setting up across the table.

And yes Captain, we need to get a game in sometime. It would be awesome

 MrMoustaffa wrote:
4 independent vendettas with meltavets flying around in them, plus you've got up to 7 independent russ slots if you want them.

To get 4 independent vendettas you would need to make the codex the primary, as the ABG has a limit of 1 on gunship squadrons. Not a big deal but worth noting.

I feel your pain peregrine. I could see a list working with 3 hades, using them to clear locations and then air dropping some scoring units in if needed. It would have to be a codex list though. Four is doable, you would need to ally in a DKOK army for the last one though. They would have to be engineers instead of veterans though.

 Trickstick wrote:
I feel your pain peregrine. I could see a list working with 3 hades, using them to clear locations and then air dropping some scoring units in if needed. It would have to be a codex list though. Four is doable, you would need to ally in a DKOK army for the last one though. They would have to be engineers instead of veterans though.

Yeah, I'm sure there's a list that makes good use of the new drills. But I made my army based on veteran squads with Hades drills as my only troops, so removing that option pretty much destroys my army. I suppose when I get my copy of IA1 I'll read the complete rules and decide whether it's even worth playing 40k anymore.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Trickstick wrote:
I feel your pain peregrine. I could see a list working with 3 hades, using them to clear locations and then air dropping some scoring units in if needed. It would have to be a codex list though. Four is doable, you would need to ally in a DKOK army for the last one though. They would have to be engineers instead of veterans though.

Yeah, I'm sure there's a list that makes good use of the new drills. But I made my army based on veteran squads with Hades drills as my only troops, so removing that option pretty much destroys my army. I suppose when I get my copy of IA1 I'll read the complete rules and decide whether it's even worth playing 40k anymore.

I'm sorry to say this as I really do sympathize, but you must have realized that GW does this at every revision.

Anyone currently running an all sanguinary guard Dante army or a Deathwing army must be ready for the next codex or ruleset to drop and have the army invalidated. GW seems to almost specifically target 'spamming' or running multiples of certain units and even if they don't disallow something in the next book. likelihood is it will be made weaker. At the least though we should be happy they seem to have stopped just dropping armies.

Being prepared to buy more models when a new version of a book comes out is part of the way they sell minis and operate.

Ok, so I am having problems deciding on the load out for my command tank. The main priorities (in order of importance) are:

1. Looks cool.
2. Survivable.
3. Not useless.
4. Not stupidly expensive.

So far, I have this:

Vanquisher, hull lascannon, coax stubber, beast-hunter shells - 205 points

The shells add an alternate fire mode that is an ID small blast, seems like a reminder of the old vanquisher. BTW, only hq tanks can take special shells.

It needs to be able to live because it is my warlord. I could just hide it away to keep it safe but that doesn't seem too much fun. It also needs LoS on targets to give out orders against them. I am considering adding sponsons for some extra power or an artificer hull for an extra hull point, although both of those bump the price cost up to land raider levels, which always seems wrong to me.

So, anyone have nice vanquisher builds?

Doesn't it have the option for some sort of awesome upgrade that gives it another hullpoint?

 Trickstick wrote:
...or an artificer hull for an extra hull point...

Yeah, it is pretty expensive though, as much as some cheap sponsons. It would fit well with the alpha pattern hull I have for the model, although would an extra hull point keep it around much longer? Something about a 4hp russ strikes me as right though...