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 Seaward wrote:

 Kid_Kyoto wrote:

But calling an arrest a 'kidnapping' is out of line. No one disputes that he was arrested legally.

I don't know enough about the arrest to know if he was arrested legally. If people are actually calling his parents and demanding money for his release, I think it's a hilariously ill-conceived defense to claim it's not kidnapping.

The Mexican border guards arrest you and hand you over to the state police.

The state police hand you over to the federal police.

The federal police hand you over to the internal security bureau.

The internal security bureau hands you over to the prison guard.

The prison guard put you on a wing.

Someone in the wing calls your parents for $1,800 ransom. They may be connected with the Nigerian prince whose wife has connections in an oil company and needs to recover £120 millions of blood diamonds from Switzerland and will pay 5% commission if you will front the deal with a few hundred.

You can see here there is an obvious direct link with the US border agents who gave you wrong advice about your gun registration.

The border agents are federal employees. Obama is in charge of the federal government.

Clearly it is a massive kidnap conspiracy by the president to supplement his salary.

 Kilkrazy wrote:
Clearly it is a massive kidnap conspiracy by the president to supplement his salary.

Would you like some examples of cartel violence directed at gringos with Mexican authorities looking the other way?

 Seaward wrote:

 Kilkrazy wrote:
Clearly it is a massive kidnap conspiracy by the president to supplement his salary.

Would you like some examples of cartel violence directed at gringos with Mexican authorities looking the other way?

Or some of the numerous examples of corruption, and kidnapping/ransom by Mexican authorities? Having to pay your way out of trouble is the law of the land down there.

And locking up foreigners for breaking any law and throwing the book at them is an American tradition.

 Mannahnin wrote:
Brought the shotgun, apparently.

Also, drive through some of the most dangerous places for American citizens in the world.

This reminds me of some of the backlash from the movie Into the Wild whereby several survival experts stated that Christopher McCandless basically committed suicide by nature.

One other thing that really bugged me.

They didn't know where they would end up and wanted to 'live off the grid' somewhere in Central America.

Were they going to get visas and residency permits?

Americans can enter most places in the region without a visa but not to live.

Needless to say the punishment should not be 4 years in a Mexican jail but the article conveys a certain sense of '#$%& the rules'. And I imagine the police were not too happy hear an armed combat vet explain he was just headed south to live off the grid for a while.

If you want to find the laws about bringing weapons into another country and what paperwork you might need you should probably go to a consulate and not actually enter a foreign country known for having a cartel run border region without having everything triple checked.

 dogma wrote:
This reminds me of some of the backlash from the movie Into the Wild whereby several survival experts stated that Christopher McCandless basically committed suicide by nature.

He did.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 d-usa wrote:
If you want to find the laws about bringing weapons into another country and what paperwork you might need you should probably go to a consulate and not actually enter a foreign country known for having a cartel run border region without having everything triple checked.

It's still not clear he didn't have the correct paperwork.

It's pretty clear that he got some papers from a US border guard, whose job responsibility does not include making sure US citizens have the correct paperwork for Mexico.

The story makes it pretty clear he winged it with this idea to just bring a shotgun into Mexico, and it doesn't even make it very clear that it would be a legal weapon if he had paperwork.

 d-usa wrote:
It's pretty clear that he got some papers from a US border guard, whose job responsibility does not include making sure US citizens have the correct paperwork for Mexico.

The story makes it pretty clear he winged it with this idea to just bring a shotgun into Mexico, and it doesn't even make it very clear that it would be a legal weapon if he had paperwork.

Mexican law allows anything 12 gauge and under, with a barrel length under 25 inches.

This is relevant.

US Consulate, Tijuana wrote:Don’t bring firearms or ammunition across the border into Mexico.

Don’t carry a knife, even a small pocketknife, on your person in Mexico.

You may become one of dozens of U.S. Citizens who are arrested each month for unintentionally violating Mexico’s strict weapons laws.

If you are caught with firearms or ammunition in Mexico...

You will go to jail and your vehicle will be seized;
You will be separated from your family, friends, and your job, and likely suffer substantial financial hardship;
You will pay court costs and other fees ranging into the tens of thousands of dollars defending yourself;
You may get up to a 30-year sentence in a Mexican prison if found guilty.

If you carry a knife on your person in Mexico, even a pocketknife . . .

You may be arrested and charged with possession of a deadly weapon;
You may spend weeks in jail waiting for trial, and tens of thousands of dollars in attorney’s fees, court costs, and fines;
If convicted, you may be sentenced to up to five years in a Mexican prison.

Claiming not to know about the law will not get you leniency from a police officer or the judicial system. Leave your firearms, ammunition, and knives at home. Don’t bring them into Mexico.

 dogma wrote:
This is relevant.

US Consulate, Tijuana wrote:Don’t bring firearms or ammunition across the border into Mexico.

Don’t carry a knife, even a small pocketknife, on your person in Mexico.

You may become one of dozens of U.S. Citizens who are arrested each month for unintentionally violating Mexico’s strict weapons laws.

If you are caught with firearms or ammunition in Mexico...

You will go to jail and your vehicle will be seized;
You will be separated from your family, friends, and your job, and likely suffer substantial financial hardship;
You will pay court costs and other fees ranging into the tens of thousands of dollars defending yourself;
You may get up to a 30-year sentence in a Mexican prison if found guilty.

If you carry a knife on your person in Mexico, even a pocketknife . . .

You may be arrested and charged with possession of a deadly weapon;
You may spend weeks in jail waiting for trial, and tens of thousands of dollars in attorney’s fees, court costs, and fines;
If convicted, you may be sentenced to up to five years in a Mexican prison.

Claiming not to know about the law will not get you leniency from a police officer or the judicial system. Leave your firearms, ammunition, and knives at home. Don’t bring them into Mexico.

He was hardly caught with the weapon in Mexico now though, was he? He was trying to cross the border and said "Hey, I want to bring this with me, is it cool?" If the weapon was illegal the border guards should have said "No, that weapon is illegal, you have to turn around and go home."

 Bromsy wrote:

He was hardly caught with the weapon in Mexico now though, was he? He was trying to cross the border and said "Hey, I want to bring this with me, is it cool?" If the weapon was illegal the border guards should have said "No, that weapon is illegal, you have to turn around and go home."

As far as I'm aware Mexican customs offices are within Mexican territory.

That's technically wrong, according to the Mexican customs website..

I'll admit chances are pretty good this dude didn't get the necessary permit from the necessary departments.

 Seaward wrote:
That's technically wrong, according to the Mexican customs website..

I'll admit chances are pretty good this dude didn't get the necessary permit from the necessary departments.

Yeah, its definitely hyperbolic, most likely to dissuade people from bringing weapons into Mexico in order to avoid cases much like the present one.

 d-usa wrote:
It's pretty clear that he got some papers from a US border guard, whose job responsibility does not include making sure US citizens have the correct paperwork for Mexico.

The story makes it pretty clear he winged it with this idea to just bring a shotgun into Mexico, and it doesn't even make it very clear that it would be a legal weapon if he had paperwork.

If you're looking to be outraged, the CBP folks who are going around giving Mexican legal advice deserve some outrage. According to the article they've gotten 2 people arrested by telling them they'd be fine.

American border patrol agents are NOT Mexican lawyers.

 Kid_Kyoto wrote:

If you're looking to be outraged, the CBP folks who are going around giving Mexican legal advice deserve some outrage. According to the article they've gotten 2 people arrested by telling them they'd be fine.

American border patrol agents are NOT Mexican lawyers.

I think I'll continue to be outraged at the guys who actually put him on the phone with his parents to make him beg them to send money, personally.

It's a shame he wasn't an acting station chief, he could've killed a couple guys and been out by now. Contrary to popular belief, we do indeed spring people from foreign jail sometimes.

 dogma wrote:

 Bromsy wrote:

He was hardly caught with the weapon in Mexico now though, was he? He was trying to cross the border and said "Hey, I want to bring this with me, is it cool?" If the weapon was illegal the border guards should have said "No, that weapon is illegal, you have to turn around and go home."

As far as I'm aware Mexican customs offices are within Mexican territory.

So there should be no difference showing up at the border and asking "I can bring this into your fine country, right?" and being caught lugging it around without permission? Is that a RaW thing or do you really see no distinction?

 Bromsy wrote:

 dogma wrote:

 Bromsy wrote:

He was hardly caught with the weapon in Mexico now though, was he? He was trying to cross the border and said "Hey, I want to bring this with me, is it cool?" If the weapon was illegal the border guards should have said "No, that weapon is illegal, you have to turn around and go home."

As far as I'm aware Mexican customs offices are within Mexican territory.

So there should be no difference showing up at the border and asking "I can bring this into your fine country, right?" and being caught lugging it around without permission? Is that a RaW thing or do you really see no distinction?

Pretty much. The place to ask that would have been a consulate.

Should Mexicans who want to move here to live off the grid and bring their weapons with them just show up and see if that's cool, or should they get the needed paperwork handled at a US consulate on Mexico?

 d-usa wrote:

 Bromsy wrote:

 dogma wrote:

 Bromsy wrote:

He was hardly caught with the weapon in Mexico now though, was he? He was trying to cross the border and said "Hey, I want to bring this with me, is it cool?" If the weapon was illegal the border guards should have said "No, that weapon is illegal, you have to turn around and go home."

As far as I'm aware Mexican customs offices are within Mexican territory.

So there should be no difference showing up at the border and asking "I can bring this into your fine country, right?" and being caught lugging it around without permission? Is that a RaW thing or do you really see no distinction?

Pretty much. The place to ask that would have been a consulate.

Should Mexicans who want to move here to live off the grid and bring their weapons with them just show up and see if that's cool, or should they get the needed paperwork handled at a US consulate on Mexico?

I think showing up at a customs station at the border and asking questions would be pretty much okay. You can always deny them entry and whatnot, without y'know, arresting them then handing them off to drug cartels to ransom - if we are talking reasonable responses here.

A border is for crossing, it's not an information post.

 Bromsy wrote:

So there should be no difference showing up at the border and asking "I can bring this into your fine country, right?" and being caught lugging it around without permission? Is that a RaW thing or do you really see no distinction?

I see a distinction, but the Mexican state apparently does not. As Kyoto said, even his friend said it was foolish and the law of the land, no matter how absurd, must be obeyed. And as someone who has traveled abroad quite a bit, I agree.

Ive traveled abroad a bit myself. Its been my experience that in most civilized nations if a customs/border agent takes offense at something you might be bringing with you they confiscate it and send you on your way (unless of course youre doing something strictly illegal, given that gun ownership is a right in Mexicos Constitution, it isnt exactly strictly illegal... not like say, transporting a wmd or a ton of heroine).

 d-usa wrote:
A border is for crossing, it's not an information post.

No, actually a border is not for crossing, it is a place where two different things meet. Generally, a border between two nations that is controlled is used to keep out unwanted things, not to use as a goddamned checkpoint to arrest people to be used for ransom.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Border

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Border_checkpoint


"A border checkpoint is a place, generally between two countries, where travellers or goods are inspected. Authorization often is required to enter a country through its borders. Access-controlled borders often have a limited number of checkpoints where they can be crossed without legal sanctions. Arrangements may be formed to allow or mandate less restrained crossings (e.g. Schengen Agreement). Land border checkpoints can be contrasted with the customs and immigration facilities at seaports, international airports, and other ports of entry.

Checkpoints generally serve two purposes:

To prevent entrance of individuals who are either undesirable (e.g., criminals or others who pose threats) or are simply unauthorized to enter.
To prevent entrance of goods that are illegal, subject to restriction or to collect tariffs.

Checkpoints are usually manned by a uniformed service (sometimes referred to as customs service or border Patrol Agents)."


I mean seriously, your position is that anyone who shows up to the border and isn't 100% compliant with the law of the nation they are attempting to enter should not be turned away, they should be arrested and held for ransom by drug lords whilst chained to a bed? Just to be clear.

So Mexicans arrested at the US checkpoint with weapons or drugs are told to turn around and go back to Mexico?

We don't arrest them for bringing illegal things into the United States?

My bad...

 dogma wrote:

 Bromsy wrote:

So there should be no difference showing up at the border and asking "I can bring this into your fine country, right?" and being caught lugging it around without permission? Is that a RaW thing or do you really see no distinction?

I see a distinction, but the Mexican state apparently does not. As Kyoto said, even his friend said it was foolish and the law of the land, no matter how absurd, must be obeyed. And as someone who has traveled abroad quite a bit, I agree.

Not saying it wasn't a stupid call. Generally marines are not renowned for their intellectual acumen (joshing). I really am curious which statutes of Mexican law advocate handing over control of prisoners to drug lords and allowing them to ransom them. And if somehow that is the law of the land, thinking that it is okay is a morally bankrupt position.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 d-usa wrote:
So Mexicans arrested at the US checkpoint with weapons or drugs are told to turn around and go back to Mexico?

We don't arrest them for bringing illegal things into the United States?

My bad...

Find me a story of a mexican with a 60 year old .410 being handed over to the Hells Angels to use as slave labor and your point there might have some merit.

And there are two separate events here:

One is being arrested by a border guard, which could very well be 100% legitimate.

The other is a cartel run prison. Which has nothing to do with the weapon offense.

 d-usa wrote:
And there are two separate events here:

One is being arrested by a border guard, which could very well be 100% legitimate.

The other is a cartel run prison. Which has nothing to do with the weapon offense.

Correct, the Cartel run prison thing is the part that I am mostly angry about - that and the fact that some people on here seem to think that it is okay for this to happen because 'that's how it's done in mexico.'

My other, lesser concern is that someone driving up to your border and saying - hey, my guys said that you'd be okay with this - points at disassembled shotgun - they gave me this paperwork to give you. Should not result in an arrest. It should result in confiscation or denial of entry. The situation could be the result of any number of things, which is why I am feeling more lenient about that point - it could be some overzealous rookies first day, it could be someone who is bitter about americans because a missionary from their country was beheaded in afghanistan. Or it could be a deliberate scheme set up to funnel people into a jail run by a cartel. Don't really know on that score.

Or it could be a border guard for a country that is being bled dry by cartel violence who is not okay with some American driving up and violating their laws.

It's not their job to make sure you educate yourself about their laws and to make sure you have the correct paperwork before entering.

Again, we arrest plenty of people on our side of the border who can give you the same story.

Apart from the cartel run prisons who put you to work, we got corporate run prisons to do that for us.

 d-usa wrote:

Again, we arrest plenty of people on our side of the border who can give you the same story.

Link me a couple.