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 hotsauceman1 wrote:
I,m not sure more Indy stores are good. Really good ones are a severe rarity.
Most go down the drain very fast, and are staffed by people with severe Biases in games.

Because you get unbiased game service at a GW store? Or the ability to play at all? You're not even allowed to play GW games that aren't 'the big 3' there.


Most go down the drain because people are not prepared to work hard at them and think they can open a shop and just play the games all day with their mates.

Yeah, But if i go into a GW store to buy something, I know I'm buying Gw.
But i have been to stores where if i buy GW, they try to convert me to their game of preference.

GW stores are great, in my opinion.

If I talk to someone about Warhammer and they haven't a scooby about what it is and they are British, they recognise the logo and say "Hey, there's one near where I live!".

In other words, they're great for pulling in new gamers. Do they stay? Maybe not. But even so . . .

 spaceelf wrote:
I think that it is more useful to look at their total sales for 40k.

That is actually in there as well (they have to list out sales for the 40,000 trademark). It also shows the downward trend.

 notprop wrote:
Indeed spaceelf, I confess I missed that revelation in the Chapterhouse thread myself. Taking individual items from a line and extrapolating a sales picture for the whole line is also guessing. Loosing £7-8k of sales per year could be indicative of a change in meta as much as anything, it could be explained by an £10k increase in landraider sales as fashions change.

That's not to say it isn't a drop in sales, purely that without the whole picture anything could be true.

Find it and look for yourself. Dozens of people have demonstrated many times over many years using many sources of information that the trend line for the GW sales volumes are going down. True believers discount this as guessing - however it is no more guessing than scientists are when they calculate the diameter of the Earth...after all - no one has gotten out a tape measure and measured it, so it must be guessing.

 MeanGreenStompa wrote:

That's cos you're not in the UK, the average player is much younger there, GW in Britain made a move to focus it's efforts on the very young during the pokemon times in the UK, known to us older players as the Red Age or Age of Strife. I was selling GW stuff in a hobby shop around this time and was suddenly besieged by small children with mildly stressed mothers. To this day, GWs in the UK are basically glorified babysitting services and the one in Bristol center was certainly busy just around school closing time or on Saturdays when the mums would drop the kids off and then go get a starbucks and do their shopping. Lots and lots of little timmies over there.

I go to GW stores fairly regularly and I don't recognise the picture you paint.

Also, are you saying that no kids were into GW before "back in the day"? Or are you annoyed at children's parents paying for things? They can't work so they need to get money from somewhere.

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
How many people have actually encountered "Little Timmies" in their life?
I have personally seen none. This hobby is not like video games or toys. You have to be pro active in evening searching for the hobby.
I dont see many parents taking their kids into a game store for toys.

I used to trip over them every time I would go into a GW store (haven't been in a GW store for years...but I have no reason to think they have changed any). I still do trip over them when I go to independent stores - though now they are likely to be messing with whatever the CCG fad is of the day or something by PP instead. If you go into a store which has in store gaming tables, you will trip over Timmy.

As far as finding it - parents find it as an alternative to TV and video games. They look in the phone book (physical or online) for hobby stores in their area. Timmy gets picked on, but it would be good for him to have a hobby other than staring at the TV all day. Here is a store - lets take him in and see what he takes to. Oh look, he seems to like those. What's that? You offer gaming here on Thursday nights? Timmy will be able to socialize with people who are like him...and I get to have a girls night out at Applebees...

It happens a lot more often than you might think - and it is the core of GW's retail business strategy.

Little timmies play something by PP in your area? That's interesting . . .

Not a true believer but you can't extrapolate sales figures from one line or item.

I've not read what you are referring to and you don't seem to want to expand on this new source to continue the discussion?

I've not seen anyone use anything other than anecdotal evidence and the GW accounts to prove a slump in sales. The report includes only one line on sales and that is unit sales which can be interpreted many ways but not tied down with, you guessed it sales figures.

You seem to want to have one of those white/dark knight type conversations I'm more interested in new information.

Zoned wrote:
A staffer explained to me once that advertising is expensive and it doesn't make sense to advertise a niche market product to a mass audience.

That's just GW propaganda. MTG advertises, video games advertise, etc. Obviously you don't buy super bowl ads for 40k, but it's absolutely stupid not to advertise at gaming conventions (yes GW, there is a hobby outside of your "GW hobby" niche), in video game magazines, on websites related to things 40k players tend to be interested in, etc.

This of course is one of the reasons I hope GW dies so they can be bought by WOTC, because they need to be owned by someone who understands how marketing works.

 Zweischneid wrote:
While I can also see the appeal of A, I don't think they would work very well in busy high-rent-per-square-foot areas where you get the best exposure to walk-in / new customers. Gaming Centers tend to be a bit off the beaten path in former industrial estates and things like that where you can get lots of room for little money. If you go there, you are most likely already a customer who knows about the product. They synch with online-retailers (Triple Helix Wargames comes to mind). But they suck at getting a brand name / product out there to people who don't know you yet.

Except that:

1) If you don't have gaming space there's no reason for any customers to ever go into your store, since they can just buy everything online for less money. If you don't have gaming space you might as well just kill the retail side entirely.

2) Gaming space is one of the best ways to get new people into the game. Which is going to be more attractive to a new customer, an empty store with shelves of product, or a store with gaming tables set up, people playing and having fun, a game you can watch and see how it all works, etc.

Eilif wrote:
WOTC does not have a great track record with mass battle (a relative term) miniatures games.

WOTC isn't stupid. They know when they've got a good product, and aren't going to make dramatic changes to the game and risk killing that product

As flawed and reckless as they sometimes seem, there's no guarantee that a company that buys GW is going to continue the miniatures game as we know it.

That's why I hope for them to be bought by WOTC. They have enough money to afford the purchase, but they know the gaming industry well enough to avoid damaging the game and make legitimate improvements.

 MeanGreenStompa wrote:

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
I,m not sure more Indy stores are good. Really good ones are a severe rarity.
Most go down the drain very fast, and are staffed by people with severe Biases in games.

Because you get unbiased game service at a GW store? Or the ability to play at all? You're not even allowed to play GW games that aren't 'the big 3' there.


Most go down the drain because people are not prepared to work hard at them and think they can open a shop and just play the games all day with their mates.

I've never had that problem, its always been the 'you can only play it if people can buy it" rule

hotsauceman1 wrote:Yeah, But if i go into a GW store to buy something, I know I'm buying Gw.
But i have been to stores where if i buy GW, they try to convert me to their game of preference.

Are you seriously telling me you're complaining that going into a nonGW store is stressful because you encountered someone who tried to get you interested in a game they liked?
You are a delicate little snowflake aren't you.

Testify wrote:

 MeanGreenStompa wrote:

That's cos you're not in the UK, the average player is much younger there, GW in Britain made a move to focus it's efforts on the very young during the pokemon times in the UK, known to us older players as the Red Age or Age of Strife. I was selling GW stuff in a hobby shop around this time and was suddenly besieged by small children with mildly stressed mothers. To this day, GWs in the UK are basically glorified babysitting services and the one in Bristol center was certainly busy just around school closing time or on Saturdays when the mums would drop the kids off and then go get a starbucks and do their shopping. Lots and lots of little timmies over there.

I go to GW stores fairly regularly and I don't recognise the picture you paint.
Also, are you saying that no kids were into GW before "back in the day"? Or are you annoyed at children's parents paying for things? They can't work so they need to get money from somewhere.

Go to the GW in Bristol city center, on a Saturday afternoon, or after school finishes during the week.
The demographic for players was considerably older when I started playing, as an 11 year old I was decidedly young and the majority were about 18 and older through to middle age. I used to visit the GW in Beckenham quite a bit at that age and I was aware I was among much older people and they used to be entertained and encouraged me as a youngster because I was considered very young for starting the game. It was most definitely during the pokemon craze times that I saw GW move to target younger players and capture the parent pound, since the black teeshirt and long hair teen brigade just didn't have much cash.

Rainbow Dash wrote:

 MeanGreenStompa wrote:

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
I,m not sure more Indy stores are good. Really good ones are a severe rarity.
Most go down the drain very fast, and are staffed by people with severe Biases in games.

Because you get unbiased game service at a GW store? Or the ability to play at all? You're not even allowed to play GW games that aren't 'the big 3' there.
Most go down the drain because people are not prepared to work hard at them and think they can open a shop and just play the games all day with their mates.

I've never had that problem, its always been the 'you can only play it if people can buy it" rule

It hasn't. You are wrong.

 MeanGreenStompa wrote:

hotsauceman1 wrote:Yeah, But if i go into a GW store to buy something, I know I'm buying Gw.
But i have been to stores where if i buy GW, they try to convert me to their game of preference.

Are you seriously telling me you're complaining that going into a nonGW store is stressful because you encountered someone who tried to get you interested in a game they liked?
You are a delicate little snowflake aren't you.

Sigh, That is not what i meant, I hhave gone up to the counter before, have people snort at what i buy and say why something else is better.

Personally, GW went down the tubes for me earlier this year. I think this is a "by individual" situation. Each of us has to decide if GW is circling the drain, down the tubes, clogging the john or still gold-plated. Early this year, they were circling for me, but they finally flushed. Kinda stuck in the tube though, as I'd like to give them a second chance-but I'm sure it'll be a mistake.

 hotsauceman1 wrote:

 MeanGreenStompa wrote:

hotsauceman1 wrote:Yeah, But if i go into a GW store to buy something, I know I'm buying Gw.
But i have been to stores where if i buy GW, they try to convert me to their game of preference.

Are you seriously telling me you're complaining that going into a nonGW store is stressful because you encountered someone who tried to get you interested in a game they liked?
You are a delicate little snowflake aren't you.

Sigh, That is not what i meant, I hhave gone up to the counter before, have people snort at what i buy and say why something else is better.

How many times has this happened to you and how did it affect you that you'd rather there were only GW stores?

Also, GW employees are not allowed to voice that opinion because everything they carry is their own product and therefore 'The Best In The World'...

 MeanGreenStompa wrote:

hotsauceman1 wrote:Yeah, But if i go into a GW store to buy something, I know I'm buying Gw.
But i have been to stores where if i buy GW, they try to convert me to their game of preference.

Are you seriously telling me you're complaining that going into a nonGW store is stressful because you encountered someone who tried to get you interested in a game they liked?
You are a delicate little snowflake aren't you.

Testify wrote:

 MeanGreenStompa wrote:

That's cos you're not in the UK, the average player is much younger there, GW in Britain made a move to focus it's efforts on the very young during the pokemon times in the UK, known to us older players as the Red Age or Age of Strife. I was selling GW stuff in a hobby shop around this time and was suddenly besieged by small children with mildly stressed mothers. To this day, GWs in the UK are basically glorified babysitting services and the one in Bristol center was certainly busy just around school closing time or on Saturdays when the mums would drop the kids off and then go get a starbucks and do their shopping. Lots and lots of little timmies over there.

I go to GW stores fairly regularly and I don't recognise the picture you paint.
Also, are you saying that no kids were into GW before "back in the day"? Or are you annoyed at children's parents paying for things? They can't work so they need to get money from somewhere.

Go to the GW in Bristol city center, on a Saturday afternoon, or after school finishes during the week.
The demographic for players was considerably older when I started playing, as an 11 year old I was decidedly young and the majority were about 18 and older through to middle age. I used to visit the GW in Beckenham quite a bit at that age and I was aware I was among much older people and they used to be entertained and encouraged me as a youngster because I was considered very young for starting the game. It was most definitely during the pokemon craze times that I saw GW move to target younger players and capture the parent pound, since the black teeshirt and long hair teen brigade just didn't have much cash.

Rainbow Dash wrote:

 MeanGreenStompa wrote:

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
I,m not sure more Indy stores are good. Really good ones are a severe rarity.
Most go down the drain very fast, and are staffed by people with severe Biases in games.

Because you get unbiased game service at a GW store? Or the ability to play at all? You're not even allowed to play GW games that aren't 'the big 3' there.
Most go down the drain because people are not prepared to work hard at them and think they can open a shop and just play the games all day with their mates.

I've never had that problem, its always been the 'you can only play it if people can buy it" rule

It hasn't. You are wrong.

okay so all those times I played Blood Bowl, in plain site of them, and chatted with me about it...was what, a dream?!
back home had a large gothic following too, i saw epic from time to time
never on busy nights, but the only games that I was ever told that were forbidden to be played were space hulk and dreadfleet due to the fact they were unsupported...

Personally, my local GW store is pretty awesome. While the staff has to adress customers before player (customer service 101) they have game nights 4 or 5 times a week (not sure because I only play 40k and they have game nights for LoTR and fantasy too). The manager also organises small tournaments.

They do lack game tables, but they are in a mall and so lack the space to add more tables. Overall, maybe I am in the lucky few that still has a GW where the staff aren't donkey-caves with old player and actually debate with veterans.

As far as their prices, I just go on eBay and find stuff NIB at 30% off.

maskedman504 wrote:


To the guy repping Warmahordes as cheaper, better models and more players:

I have spent $110 on Cygnar for 5 jacks; I have no where near a playable army, the plastic is so hard the mold lines need filed like pewter (can't scrape them with a knife) and the plastic does not take plastic cement. As for the model design, apples/oranges.

PP is hardly revolutionizing wargaming, but I do like their (or whoever they have branded as their) brushes.

I will play Warmachine, but to me, it is the M:tG of miniature wargaming.

While I can agree that Warmachine does have a bit more of a modular approach (which I presume is the source of your M:tG reference), I have to disagree with your assessment of the cost. Fifty bucks (37-ish if you go to Miniature Market) for a starter set and another $13-$15 for a set of Black 13th gun mages gets a 15 point army, which is a fully playable army. I hardly think that buying five jacks separately and lamenting about not having a playable army gives the game fair representation in terms of price.

Regarding the modelling complaints: I've never had the type of issue you discuss with the plastic being hard, so I can only chalk that up to differences in production runs or medium preferences. I can say that the issue of models not taking plastic cement isn't exactly a damning issue, since it's no real struggle to use super glue instead of plastic cement.

 Peregrine wrote:

Eilif wrote:
WOTC does not have a great track record with mass battle (a relative term) miniatures games.

WOTC isn't stupid. They know when they've got a good product, and aren't going to make dramatic changes to the game and risk killing that product

Really? They managed to kill D&D Miniatures by totally changing it - twice!
They messed up Star Wars Miniatures, Heroscape and D&D.

As flawed and reckless as they sometimes seem, there's no guarantee that a company that buys GW is going to continue the miniatures game as we know it.

That's why I hope for them to be bought by WOTC. They have enough money to afford the purchase, but they know the gaming industry well enough to avoid damaging the game and make legitimate improvements.

WOTC. The company that can't sell Dungeons & Dragons to Role-Players.

WOTC The company that can't sell STAR WARS!

WOTC. The company that's couldn't even sell Heroscape successfully.

WOTC are the Grim Reaper of the gaming industry.

 MeanGreenStompa wrote:

 hotsauceman1 wrote:

 MeanGreenStompa wrote:

hotsauceman1 wrote:Yeah, But if i go into a GW store to buy something, I know I'm buying Gw.
But i have been to stores where if i buy GW, they try to convert me to their game of preference.

Are you seriously telling me you're complaining that going into a nonGW store is stressful because you encountered someone who tried to get you interested in a game they liked?
You are a delicate little snowflake aren't you.

Sigh, That is not what i meant, I hhave gone up to the counter before, have people snort at what i buy and say why something else is better.

How many times has this happened to you and how did it affect you that you'd rather there were only GW stores?

Also, GW employees are not allowed to voice that opinion because everything they carry is their own product and therefore 'The Best In The World'...

I hate GW stores(they pester) What i am saying is that very often, Indy stores are formed by people with a love of a single game and begrudgingly carry others. I have seen quite a few like that.

 MeanGreenStompa wrote:

 hotsauceman1 wrote:

Sigh, That is not what i meant, I hhave gone up to the counter before, have people snort at what i buy and say why something else is better.

How many times has this happened to you and how did it affect you that you'd rather there were only GW stores?

Also, GW employees are not allowed to voice that opinion because everything they carry is their own product and therefore 'The Best In The World'...

Not sure which way you meant this, and I'm not a GW shopper anymore, but regards to GW employee opinions,.

When a customer is bringing something to the register an employee should shut the flap up and not belittle a customers choice. Having an opinion doesn't mean you should always tell a customer.

It's simple customer service The customer is always right. The time to offer advice is when the customer is looking for something or inquiring about the suitability of a pruchase. When the customer decides what they want it's the clerks job to shut the flap up cheerfully ring them up and send them out the door feeling good about their choice.

If they want to upsell - as in "hey would you like a ____ to go with that"- that's standard retail, but if an employee is so overcome with their own knowlege of the game that they want to break protocol and question them about their purchase they should stop, shut the flap up and proceed as described above.

 Ugavine wrote:
[
WOTC. The company that can't sell Dungeons & Dragons to Role-Players.

WOTC The company that can't sell STAR WARS!

WOTC. The company that's couldn't even sell Heroscape successfully.

WOTC are the Grim Reaper of the gaming industry.

So? In what way would it be worse for Warhammer 40k as a while? Right now, we're looking at a GW that withdraws from letting people play and focuses on being a retailer alone. GW's entire bunch of CEOs has to go...permanently.

WOTC. The company that can't sell Dungeons & Dragons to Role-Players.

WOTC The company that can't sell STAR WARS!

WOTC. The company that's couldn't even sell Heroscape successfully.

WOTC are the Grim Reaper of the gaming industry.


I coudnt agree more.

I am speaking from personal experience here. WOTC would not be the saviour some folks think it would be. Ive said it before..If you thought GW flip-flopped on rules, WOTC has a page on its webiste devoted to get this...DAILY UPDATES of card rulings. DAILY??

How about this..Listen to the playtesters that you bring in and ban the cards they tell you are problematic. Dont rely on the crybabies who got their butts handed to them at a local tournament to write in about how broken this card is in tournament play. -- But they dont. Its always been an after the fact knee-jerk reaction.

So even though I agree with the idea that GW needs a good shake up in the management area, WOTC is not the answer. I think another poster said something about how the guys at PP are putting out a good publication in the form of "No Quarter". I would agree. There are good articles for gamers and modelers.

I couldnt say for sure, but the idea of jacking up prices to make up for lacking sales does seem to be what is going on. Some suggestions to the problem of customer loyalty...

1. LISTEN to the consumer. Hear what they are trying to say. This hobby is by choice. No-one twists your arm to play, so why is there such a wall between the makers and the players of the game? No feedback page and since the passing of the little "Mini-mags" like Citadel Journal, there is no more fan contribution. People like to be a part of something they can feel special about. How cool would it be to see one of your scenarios published in White Dwarf?

2. Respond in kind. I dont know about you guys, but I have to work hard for the money I make, and I want QUALITY and ATTENTION TO DETAIL. Dont send me a little box of smushy rubbery plastic-like stuff and call it the next best thing. Dont hype the new White Dwarf and then make it nothing more than new angles of photography. Dont force me to play an army that needs to be updated in order to be fun to play against. ( Tau )

3. Support Customer Loyalty. True, new gamers are vital to the hobby. But us old timers like to get a bone thrown to us every now and then too.

Just a few thoughts..

 Peregrine wrote:

That's just GW propaganda. MTG advertises, video games advertise, etc. Obviously you don't buy super bowl ads for 40k, but it's absolutely stupid not to advertise at gaming conventions (yes GW, there is a hobby outside of your "GW hobby" niche), in video game magazines, on websites related to things 40k players tend to be interested in, etc.

I go to a FLGS weekly, and they have a robust MTG/FNM crowd. Many years ago I saw a CCG magazine being sold in the store, but they haven't been carried in the locals FLGS for a long time. How does MTG advertise, exactly? I don't see commercials, or adds in the paper, or ads in popular magazines. I also don't see them running ads on websites that I frequent, and I'm a pretty hard core nerd.

By the way, video games are not a niche product. I'd say the vast majority of boys growing up are well aware of video games, so it makes sense to advertise them in main stream media.

Traditionally GW doesn't make it to conventions but that may be changing. They were recently at PAX Prime 2012.

http://www.giantbomb.com/pax-prime-2012/92-7349/games-workshop/52-628470/gamesworkshop01/51-2310250/

Zoned wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:

That's just GW propaganda. MTG advertises, video games advertise, etc. Obviously you don't buy super bowl ads for 40k, but it's absolutely stupid not to advertise at gaming conventions (yes GW, there is a hobby outside of your "GW hobby" niche), in video game magazines, on websites related to things 40k players tend to be interested in, etc.

I go to a FLGS weekly, and they have a robust MTG/FNM crowd. Many years ago I saw a CCG magazine being sold in the store, but they haven't been carried in the locals FLGS for a long time. How does MTG advertise, exactly? I don't see commercials, or adds in the paper, or ads in popular magazines. I also don't see them running ads on websites that I frequent, and I'm a pretty hard core nerd.

By the way, video games are not a niche product. I'd say the vast majority of boys growing up are well aware of video games, so it makes sense to advertise them in main stream media.

Traditionally GW doesn't make it to conventions but that may be changing. They were recently at PAX Prime 2012.

http://www.giantbomb.com/pax-prime-2012/92-7349/games-workshop/52-628470/gamesworkshop01/51-2310250/

MTG, while not on TV or mags, are at every checkout counter in Walmart/Rate Aid and on and on. The advertise by being in are face as we go about are daily lives, GW you have to go out of your why to even learn the exist. Product placement is advertising, a very effective and been proving to work.

Zoned wrote:
How does MTG advertise, exactly?

They actually run TV commercials:

http://www.examiner.com/article/magic-the-gathering-commercials

As well as print ads in a variety of gaming and comic magazines from Wizard (no connection to WotC) to GamePro. I've also seen their ads in MaximumPC and a few others. Before WotC bought out TSR - they also ran ads in Dragon and Dungeon magazines, and I seem to recall seeing them in some of the other general gaming magazines of the 1990s (Polyhedron and what not...though I would need to check on those).

http://www.coloribus.com/adsarchive/prints/magic-the-gathering-warrior-10524405/

http://www.coloribus.com/adsarchive/prints/magic-the-gathering-bat-10524505/

http://addio.ecrater.com/p/13697924/magic-the-gathering-print-ad

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1995-MAGIC-THE-GATHERING-HOMELANDS-WIZARDS-OF-COAST-COMIC-PRINT-AD-2-PAGE-GUAY-/150771732295

http://www.coloribus.com/adsarchive/prints/magic-the-gathering-fire-10524455/

Dozens more can be found if you bother to look. WotC advertise the crap out of it. They also worked hard to get it in big box stores (made much easier once they got access to Hasbro's distribution network - so you can walk into any Target, Walmart, Toys R Us or other store across the country and get your fix of CCG crack rock.

 George Spiggott wrote:
Give it a couple of months, your local GW will have spontaneously generated a whole shop full of new 'little Timmys'. Either that or it will have another iteration of staff members.

You'd think so but thats not the case, GW moved all thier stores to destination type locations where you dont get foot traffic. The whole purpose of the mall stores was to recruit an ass ton of kids and then boot them to the bunker stores. After turning everything into the one man strip mall locations they were being held afloat entirely by its customer base, but screw that right? Make your customers feel like crap for being there and treat them like bags of money that arent allowed an opinion.

GW is killing itself with its own stores, hell the head trainer at GW north america walked into my local GW and said "there is too much a club house vibe here, you should kick out all your regulars and start a new customer base".

You know, now that you mention it, I have seen MTG at the checkout at Walmart.

Those were...interesting commercials. In 31 years I have never seen one on TV. Maybe it's a Canadian thing.

I notice that recently (about a year ago) both Wizard and GamePro have ceased publication.

I'm sure they run ads somewhere. I'm not into CCGs so I probably don't know where to look. But as a Fantasy/Sci-Fi nerd who reads comics, plays video games, plays with miniatures, I really can't say I've seen MTG well advertised.

Are they better advertised than GW? Sure. I imagine their market is considerably bigger as well (so many feeder CCGs like pokemon, digimon, other CCGs) so it's worth advertising a little more.

and you dont have to put hundreds of hours of labour into Magic cards

Meh, if you don't like building and painting models, you're in the wrong hobby.

Zoned wrote:
Meh, if you don't like building and painting models, you're in the wrong hobby.

That may very well be - but when you analyze the future of GW, you have to consider things like that when selling products to the Burger King generation. They want it their way, right away.