First primarch to become a daemon prince

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**mydoorisajar**

Just a random discussion my gaming group was having trying to figure out which of the traitor primarchs was the first to become a daemon prince. The three primarchs in question were Magnus, Fulgrim and Lorgar. I'm fairly certain it wasn't Lorgar but it is pretty close between Fulgim and Magnus depending on what your interpretation of Fulgrim becoming possessed is and how the timeline with Istvaan and the sacking of Prospero goes. Personally I think that it was Magnus who first turned because of the pact he had to make with the dark gods and I worked out the timeline to have the sacking of Prospero first. If I have the timeline jumbled though then it would be Fulgrim when he surrendered to the Laer sword after killing Ferrus Mannus. Any thoughts or arguments would be welcome.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Feels like you're wearing nothing at all.... Nothing at all.... Nothing at all

Stupid sexy Fulgrim

Bump

**Guardsman76**

With how the novels are written in a certain order I would have to say fulgrim was the first to ascend to daemon-hood because he turned to chaos before magnus but not by much and so for that reason it would have been fulgrim

**clively**

I'd say a tough call between Lorgar and Fulgrim. Fulgrim's certainly happened immediately after his possession upon killing Ferrus.

However, Lorgar is interesting. His conversion to Chaos obviously started well before Horus turned. I'm not sure BL has been explicit on when he was promoted though. I would think it would have been after Horus had been wounded; but it could have been while he was plying the stars trying to track down his true religion.

Sure Magnus had made a pact with Tzeentch, but that was just a step on his conversion to Chaos. He wasn't converted until he accepted Tzeentch's offer of salvation from the Wolves.

**IcedAnimals**

Fulgrim wasn't himself promoted to daemonprince until long after the heresy was over. The daemon that had control of his body was already a greater daemon and was never "promoted" as greater daemons look down on daemon princes that were once mortal.

**LoneLictor**

Magnus was first. He ascended immediately after the Battle or Prospero, which was before the Horus Heresy.

**Lobokai**

LoneLictor wrote:
Magnus was first. He ascended immediately after the Battle or Prospero, which was before the Horus Heresy.

This, we have a pretty good timeline in the HH series set up for Magnus. He certainly makes it before any of the others.

**RonanSAS**

yeah magnus was first , when lorgar turned to chaos i dont think he became a ddaemon prince , i think that was much later but im not sure about that tho

**GreyHamster**

IcedAnimals wrote:
Fulgrim wasn't himself promoted to daemonprince until long after the heresy was over. The daemon that had control of his body was already a greater daemon and was never "promoted" as greater daemons look down on daemon princes that were once mortal.

Entire post is recent Horus Heresy novels spoiler.

Spoiler:

**Lobokai**

GreyHamster wrote:
IcedAnimals wrote:
Fulgrim wasn't himself promoted to daemonprince until long after the heresy was over. The daemon that had control of his body was already a greater daemon and was never "promoted" as greater daemons look down on daemon princes that were once mortal.

Entire post is recent Horus Heresy novels spoiler.

Spoiler:

This is provably incorrect. Fulgrim ascends in Angel Exterminatus, which definitely occurs before the Siege.

Fulgrim had not yet ascended at Drop site Massacre, and Prospero was before that... wasn't it? Having a greater Daemon in you isn't being a DP.

**IcedAnimals**

Ah, i have yet to read Angels exterminatus. But fulgrim in his story in "the primarchs" had definitely not yet ascended and that was suppose to be while they were in transit to tera. Or at least a mission they had to complete for the warmaster which fulgrim ignores.

Fulgrim was not a daemon prince at the siege of terra according to any fluff I have read. Possessed =/= Daemon prince. He later at some point was promoted to daemon prince and left his legion. But when this exactly happened is anyones guess. It likely happened before the EC started raiding the other chapters in the eye but sometime after the siege.

**Void__Dragon**

LoneLictor wrote:
Magnus was first. He ascended immediately after the Battle or Prospero, which was before the Horus Heresy.

Are we certain Magnus really ascended then?

I mean, sure, he wears the Warp like his brothers wear armour now, but he's still physically the same Magnus implicitly, Lorgar describing him as looking ragged and sleepless in Aurelian.

**Grey Templar**

Void__Dragon wrote:
LoneLictor wrote:
Magnus was first. He ascended immediately after the Battle or Prospero, which was before the Horus Heresy.

Are we certain Magnus really ascended then?

I mean, sure, he wears the Warp like his brothers wear armour now, but he's still physically the same Magnus implicitly, Lorgar describing him as looking ragged and sleepless in Aurelian.

No, he is definitly a DP currently.

Now he may simply be wearing a form that resembles his previous one. He isn't exactly thrilled with how things turned out.

And he is a DP, he could probably look like whatever he wanted to. But being a little depressed at how things turned out his appearance may reflect that.

**Void__Dragon**

Why is he definitely a DP currently?

**jeffersonian000**

All of the Primarchs were born daemon princes, and their god was the Emperor. However, several turned away from their god, and into the arms of other gods to maintain their glory while seeking greater power. The remaining loyal Primarchs withered as their Creator withered, with some going into hiding while others died. That is the true story of the Angels of Death.

SJ

**mydoorisajar**

I'm glad other agree that it was Magnus and that the fall of Prospero happened before Istvaan, all the fluff I have read indicates that when Russ breaks Magnus back he essentially destroys his physical form and the only way that he is able to survive is by his promotion to daemon prince and his final transition to chaos.

I'm fairly certain Lorgar doesn't quite become a daemon prince until later though at one point in first heretic it talks about him being envious of the gal vorbok and their new found ...blessings? Which leads me to believe he was still in his 'mortal' form just with a new outlook.

I was also on the line for Fulgrim as the way I took the story was that the daemon in the Laer sword possessed Fulgrims body and imprisoned Fulgrims soul inside te sword. I think it is at the end of Fulgrim and a little bit in Aurelian where they address that Fulgrim is no longer actually Fulgrim which would mean he had not ascended but mearly been possessed.

**ruminator**

Neither Fulgrim nor Magnus were Daemon Princes - Fulgrim was possessed and taken over by a greater daemon and Magnus exiled himself to the warp but would not have fit the criteria of later Daemon Princes.

**Harriticus**

Magnus > Mortarion > Lorgar > Angron/Fulgrim/Perturabo I believe

**Lobokai**

jeffersonian000 wrote:
All of the Primarchs were born daemon princes, and their god was the Emperor. However, several turned away from their god, and into the arms of other gods to maintain their glory while seeking greater power. The remaining loyal Primarchs withered as their Creator withered, with some going into hiding while others died. That is the true story of the Angels of Death.

SJ

I like this take. I've seen others say that the Empreh is the god of Law and/or Reason (which is a sort of Chaos if you think about it). He's just like Gork/Mork in that he is anchored by a race more than an "aspect" of chaos. This kinda goes along with that line of reasoning.

**daveNYC**

mydoorisajar wrote:
I'm glad other agree that it was Magnus and that the fall of Prospero happened before Istvaan, all the fluff I have read indicates that when Russ breaks Magnus back he essentially destroys his physical form and the only way that he is able to survive is by his promotion to daemon prince and his final transition to chaos.

Spoiler:

**CalgarsPimpHand**

Lobukia wrote:
jeffersonian000 wrote:
All of the Primarchs were born daemon princes, and their god was the Emperor. However, several turned away from their god, and into the arms of other gods to maintain their glory while seeking greater power. The remaining loyal Primarchs withered as their Creator withered, with some going into hiding while others died. That is the true story of the Angels of Death.

SJ

I like this take. I've seen others say that the Empreh is the god of Law and/or Reason (which is a sort of Chaos if you think about it). He's just like Gork/Mork in that he is anchored by a race more than an "aspect" of chaos. This kinda goes along with that line of reasoning.

Spoiler:

daveNYC wrote:
mydoorisajar wrote:
I'm glad other agree that it was Magnus and that the fall of Prospero happened before Istvaan, all the fluff I have read indicates that when Russ breaks Magnus back he essentially destroys his physical form and the only way that he is able to survive is by his promotion to daemon prince and his final transition to chaos.

Spoiler:

A Thousand Sons tells it differently. Russ breaks Magnus' back, but before Russ can kill him, Magnus unmakes his body (possibly using Enuncia) and the energy released then is gathered by the book of Magnus. Ahriman then does some mojo and the energy then up and moves the surviving Sons to the Planet of the Sorcerers. Eventually Magnus shows up and is described as (paraphrasing here) a being of light with a body that could only exist in the warp. Whether or not Magnus has ascended to daemonhood or if this is simply a description of what the astral body of a Primarch looks like is not made clear.

Battle for the Fang has Magnus show up on Fenris by posessing one of his sorcerers. His description there sounds more or less like what he was like during the Crusade. Certainly his appearance is nothing like Angron in The Emperor's Gift. That could mean that Magnus hadn't ascended at that point (M32) or it could just mean that being a DP doesn't automatically turn you into a 40' tall monster.

Hey, when you're the highest prince of the God of Change, why bother even choosing a form?

**mydoorisajar**

CalgarsPimpHand wrote:
Lobukia wrote:
jeffersonian000 wrote:
All of the Primarchs were born daemon princes, and their god was the Emperor. However, several turned away from their god, and into the arms of other gods to maintain their glory while seeking greater power. The remaining loyal Primarchs withered as their Creator withered, with some going into hiding while others died. That is the true story of the Angels of Death.

SJ

I like this take. I've seen others say that the Empreh is the god of Law and/or Reason (which is a sort of Chaos if you think about it). He's just like Gork/Mork in that he is anchored by a race more than an "aspect" of chaos. This kinda goes along with that line of reasoning.

Spoiler:

I think there's a lot of circumstantial stuff supporting this, plus it jives very well with my own attempts at a sort of unified theory of 40k and the warp. That's the great irony of the Great Crusade, the Emperor wanted to establish a galactic empire of science and rationality in order to amplify his own power. It's hinted in places that he trafficked with the same gods he was opposing in order to learn the secrets of daemon princedom. He was a god himself, but opposed the Chaos gods by denying his own godhood AND creating daemons of his own.

daveNYC wrote:
mydoorisajar wrote:
I'm glad other agree that it was Magnus and that the fall of Prospero happened before Istvaan, all the fluff I have read indicates that when Russ breaks Magnus back he essentially destroys his physical form and the only way that he is able to survive is by his promotion to daemon prince and his final transition to chaos.

Spoiler:

A Thousand Sons tells it differently. Russ breaks Magnus' back, but before Russ can kill him, Magnus unmakes his body (possibly using Enuncia) and the energy released then is gathered by the book of Magnus. Ahriman then does some mojo and the energy then up and moves the surviving Sons to the Planet of the Sorcerers. Eventually Magnus shows up and is described as (paraphrasing here) a being of light with a body that could only exist in the warp. Whether or not Magnus has ascended to daemonhood or if this is simply a description of what the astral body of a Primarch looks like is not made clear.

Battle for the Fang has Magnus show up on Fenris by posessing one of his sorcerers. His description there sounds more or less like what he was like during the Crusade. Certainly his appearance is nothing like Angron in The Emperor's Gift. That could mean that Magnus hadn't ascended at that point (M32) or it could just mean that being a DP doesn't automatically turn you into a 40' tall monster.

Hey, when you're the highest prince of the God of Change, why bother even choosing a form?

This is kinda what I was going for, Magnus was tr most powerful psyker in the galaxy bar the emperor and he is the chosen of change, does his ascension to a being constructed purely of the warp not kind of imply his ascension? That and did he not create the planet of sorcerers? I thought each of the daemon primarchs created a planet for themselves in the eye.

**Absolon**

IcedAnimals wrote:
Fulgrim wasn't himself promoted to daemonprince until long after the heresy was over. The daemon that had control of his body was already a greater daemon and was never "promoted" as greater daemons look down on daemon princes that were once mortal.

We now know that Fulgrim becomes a DP well before the battle for Terra. When we last see Fulgrim I the HH novels he gets his wings, extra arms and snake tail. The novels also points out Fulgrim is no longer possessed.

**daveNYC**

mydoorisajar wrote:
CalgarsPimpHand wrote:
Lobukia wrote:
jeffersonian000 wrote:
All of the Primarchs were born daemon princes, and their god was the Emperor. However, several turned away from their god, and into the arms of other gods to maintain their glory while seeking greater power. The remaining loyal Primarchs withered as their Creator withered, with some going into hiding while others died. That is the true story of the Angels of Death.

SJ

I like this take. I've seen others say that the Empreh is the god of Law and/or Reason (which is a sort of Chaos if you think about it). He's just like Gork/Mork in that he is anchored by a race more than an "aspect" of chaos. This kinda goes along with that line of reasoning.

Spoiler:

I think there's a lot of circumstantial stuff supporting this, plus it jives very well with my own attempts at a sort of unified theory of 40k and the warp. That's the great irony of the Great Crusade, the Emperor wanted to establish a galactic empire of science and rationality in order to amplify his own power. It's hinted in places that he trafficked with the same gods he was opposing in order to learn the secrets of daemon princedom. He was a god himself, but opposed the Chaos gods by denying his own godhood AND creating daemons of his own.

daveNYC wrote:
mydoorisajar wrote:
I'm glad other agree that it was Magnus and that the fall of Prospero happened before Istvaan, all the fluff I have read indicates that when Russ breaks Magnus back he essentially destroys his physical form and the only way that he is able to survive is by his promotion to daemon prince and his final transition to chaos.

Spoiler:

A Thousand Sons tells it differently. Russ breaks Magnus' back, but before Russ can kill him, Magnus unmakes his body (possibly using Enuncia) and the energy released then is gathered by the book of Magnus. Ahriman then does some mojo and the energy then up and moves the surviving Sons to the Planet of the Sorcerers. Eventually Magnus shows up and is described as (paraphrasing here) a being of light with a body that could only exist in the warp. Whether or not Magnus has ascended to daemonhood or if this is simply a description of what the astral body of a Primarch looks like is not made clear.

Battle for the Fang has Magnus show up on Fenris by posessing one of his sorcerers. His description there sounds more or less like what he was like during the Crusade. Certainly his appearance is nothing like Angron in The Emperor's Gift. That could mean that Magnus hadn't ascended at that point (M32) or it could just mean that being a DP doesn't automatically turn you into a 40' tall monster.

Hey, when you're the highest prince of the God of Change, why bother even choosing a form?

This is kinda what I was going for, Magnus was tr most powerful psyker in the galaxy bar the emperor and he is the chosen of change, does his ascension to a being constructed purely of the warp not kind of imply his ascension? That and did he not create the planet of sorcerers? I thought each of the daemon primarchs created a planet for themselves in the eye.

The Planet of the Sorcerers was definitely created by Tzeentzch. I believe that

Spoiler:

Whether Magnus, post-ATS, is a Daemon Prince is an interesting question. It just comes down to whether or not you think he would be able to maintain his astral body without outside support. The Primarchs contained all sorts of strange energies within their bodies, and Magnus was skewed towards more energy and less flesh. The only thing you could say for sure is that he would be different from the other Daemon Primarchs in that he has no physical body to infuse with the warp.

**Exergy**

why is it that perturbo has to earn his DPdom by killing tons of yellow marines while others are just given it?

Lorgar turned Horus and delivered the second largest legion to chaos's side. What could he do after that, short of killing the emperor that would be worthy of DPdom.

**daveNYC**

Exergy wrote:
why is it that perturbo has to earn his DPdom by killing tons of yellow marines while others are just given it?

Lorgar turned Horus and delivered the second largest legion to chaos's side. What could he do after that, short of killing the emperor that would be worthy of DPdom.

Lorgar isn't in it for the Daemonhood. For him, the chance to serve the true gods of the galaxy and spread their truth to the masses is its own reward. Heck, maybe Lorgar didn't even think he was worthy of being elevated to near godhood. In the First Heretic, it's pretty clear he's much more comfortable worshiping than being worshiped.