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 Crablezworth wrote:
It is when you just make stutff up...

Citation required.

The whole air underneath is somehow terrain stuff.

 Crablezworth wrote:
The whole area is literally terrain.

There you go.

Look at it the other way then: if the space under the pad isn't terrain, how are models moving through it to get to the pad?

The rules tell us that models can fly through that space as if it was difficult terrain. Ergo, that space is treated as difficult terrain.

 Crablezworth wrote:
The whole air underneath is somehow terrain stuff.

This was sorted out on the 1st page:

 DeathReaper wrote:
"To move onto or off of the landing pad counts as moving through difficult terrain." P.115 BRB

So all that is needed is a Difficult Terrain test to move on to or off of it.

Therefore the space underneath the pad must count as Difficult terrain as we are told that moving "onto or off of the landing pad counts as moving through difficult terrain." P.115 BRB

We had this problem at the Doubles at Warhmmer World. I placed Mordrak underneath the pad. The pad was crammed with IG Infantry blob and I wasn't sure if I could charge. The TO comes along and says use it like a ruin and allowed my charge despite being unable to fit any models on it.

Actually, in that situation you wouldn't be able to charge due to not having LOS... If you're underneath the pad, the pad itself would be blocking LOS to your charge target.

 Crablezworth wrote:
The whole air underneath is somehow terrain stuff.

So how do your models move up through Ruins? I have yet to see a staircase on a set of ruins.

Fragile wrote:

 Crablezworth wrote:
The whole air underneath is somehow terrain stuff.

So how do your models move up through Ruins? I have yet to see a staircase on a set of ruins.

Ruins have a rules for climbing, they also don't let you float in mid air between the table and the floor you're trying to reach if you don't roll high enough. They also don't allow tanks to climb...

You indeed do "float" between floors as you have no way to get up otherwise. I see rules for moving in ruins, but nothing for climbing. Those rules pretty much say you can go through the floor above you if you make the DT test, much the same as the Skyshield does.

 Crablezworth wrote:
...they also don't let you float in mid air between the table and the floor you're trying to reach if you don't roll high enough.

Only because they specifically disallow it. The Skyshield does not.

 insaniak wrote:
Look at it the other way then: if the space under the pad isn't terrain, how are models moving through it to get to the pad?

The rules tell us that models can fly through that space as if it was difficult terrain. Ergo, that space is treated as difficult terrain.

Only while making the move if you'd like to think that, not all the time.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Crablezworth wrote:

Fragile wrote:

 Crablezworth wrote:
The whole air underneath is somehow terrain stuff.

So how do your models move up through Ruins? I have yet to see a staircase on a set of ruins.

Ruins have a rules for climbing, they also don't let you float in mid air between the table and the floor you're trying to reach if you don't roll high enough. They also don't allow tanks to climb...

the skyshield has rules for moving up onto the skyshield. and it even has ladders.

the how and why the model gets up there is irrelevant really. but if it makes you feel better you can imagine them doing some cool grappling hook ascension like batman. Or coming up the middle and blowing a whole in the middle of the pad, which then instantly heals itself so you can stand on it models are assumed to have brought cutting tools, acidic disintegrators, and pure muscle to climb after all.

Tanks don't need to climb, they can move through difficult terrain, they can move onto the sky shield. Imagine it any way that makes you feel warm and fluffy but new house rule, if you paint a rebel flag on top of a tank, it can jump by rolling 2d6 and taking the highest in inches

sirlynchmob wrote:
Only while making the move if you'd like to think that, not all the time.

The what now?

 Crablezworth wrote:
the skyshield has rules for moving up onto the skyshield. and it even has ladders.

And since it has no access points, the ladders are purely cosmetic. And a little too small for a Leman Russ to use anyway.

Take a single Ani barge. With all those units sitting on top of each other you could a lucky roll with the Arc rule and tear his army a new one.

 Praxiss wrote:
Take a single Ani barge. With all those units sitting on top of each other you could a lucky roll with the Arc rule and tear his army a new one.

Yea, Except for that pesky 4+ Invuln...

True,

But with the barge firing a potential 12 shots by itself, then the arc rule potentially hitting every other unit with 6" with another 6 hits.....something should get through.

Lets assume there are 6 units up there.

Poentially you are hitting with 12 S7 and 30 S5 hits......if you roll all 6's (which won't happen, i'm just stating best case scenarios)

A 4++ isn't unbeatable.

No not unbeatable, but if there are softer targets guarding objectives you are not going to waste your time with the units on the skyshield.

 DeathReaper wrote:
No not unbeatable, but if there are softer targets guarding objectives you are not going to waste your time with the units on the skyshield.

I thought the point of this was that his opponent deployed EVRYTHING on the landing pad?

 insaniak wrote:
Look at it the other way then: if the space under the pad isn't terrain, how are models moving through it to get to the pad?

The rules tell us that models can fly through that space as if it was difficult terrain. Ergo, that space is treated as difficult terrain.

I think that's his point actually, the rules don't specify how you get on top... like you said, the rules (or lack thereof) for Skyshields are terrible.

 Praxiss wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
No not unbeatable, but if there are softer targets guarding objectives you are not going to waste your time with the units on the skyshield.

I thought the point of this was that his opponent deployed EVERYTHING on the landing pad?

Which is silly if there are two or three objectives per side, just move to the open objectives and dont worry about what you kill on the pad, as the objectives are what matter 5/6 times.

 Andilus Greatsword wrote:
I think that's his point actually, the rules don't specify how you get on top...

Yes they do: You treat it as difficult terrain.

 insaniak wrote:

 Andilus Greatsword wrote:
I think that's his point actually, the rules don't specify how you get on top...

Yes they do: You treat it as difficult terrain.

In that case, does the space below a Skyshield count as a part of the skyshield?

Not related to a Skyshield being full, but I get annoyed when people move or Deep Strike under my pad, so I'm going to fill the space underneath with rocks and other impassable stuff. Is this modelling for advantage?

 undertow wrote:
Not related to a Skyshield being full, but I get annoyed when people move or Deep Strike under my pad, so I'm going to fill the space underneath with rocks and other impassable stuff. Is this modelling for advantage?

I don't want to live on this planet anymore. Why did 6th ed have to go full weetaaaaahd?

 Crablezworth wrote:

 undertow wrote:
Not related to a Skyshield being full, but I get annoyed when people move or Deep Strike under my pad, so I'm going to fill the space underneath with rocks and other impassable stuff. Is this modelling for advantage?

I don't want to live on this planet anymore. Why did 6th ed have to go full weetaaaaahd?

Don't let the door hit you on the way out.

 undertow wrote:
The way I've always seen it played is that if an assaulting unit has the range to get to base-to-base with a unit on the pad, it is considered in combat even if it can't fit up there. Granted, this may not be fully in accordance with the rules, but it seems to work.

I thought the landing pad was a fortification. There are rules for assaulting into a fortification. If you can't place your model in a fortification, then it can't assault. Hence why you're troops are safer there. I'll look for a page number, quote, etc.

undertow wrote:

 Crablezworth wrote:

 undertow wrote:
Not related to a Skyshield being full, but I get annoyed when people move or Deep Strike under my pad, so I'm going to fill the space underneath with rocks and other impassable stuff. Is this modelling for advantage?

I don't want to live on this planet anymore. Why did 6th ed have to go full weetaaaaahd?

Don't let the door hit you on the way out.

Not exactly MFA, but it's dirty considering how good the skyshield is currently... and how idiotic its rules are.

boyd wrote:

 undertow wrote:
The way I've always seen it played is that if an assaulting unit has the range to get to base-to-base with a unit on the pad, it is considered in combat even if it can't fit up there. Granted, this may not be fully in accordance with the rules, but it seems to work.

I thought the landing pad was a fortification. There are rules for assaulting into a fortification. If you can't place your model in a fortification, then it can't assault. Hence why you're troops are safer there. I'll look for a page number, quote, etc.

No, it's just terrain.

I have the big rule book - not the dark vengence rule book.

On page 95 of my rule book, it says that battlements are defined as building or structure that has a flat roof that can accomodate units. Battlements do not have fire points and use the normal rules for line of sight. The difference between a building is that you can shoot back at these units instead of firing at the building. Also the unit is not fearless because they are not in a building. The battlement holds as many models as can be fit on the structure.

In my opinion, the landing pad would count as a battlement because it fits the definition above - the rules for the landing pad indicate that it can hold as many models that can fit, it has no fire points, you can shoot at the models and you're not hitting the building, you're hitting the model's armor.

Now assaulting the battlements: Units on battlements cannot be assaulted except by units in the building below them. Grenades, however can be employed against them by units assaulting below the building. When a unit assaults a bulding, any of its models that are within 8" of the battlements can each throw one grenate (if they have grenades) onto the battlements instead of striking the building in close combat, or throwing grenades into fire points. Grenades with blasts do d3 hits and grenades without blast do 1. Both grenades will also hit the building as well if there is an AV on the building (bastion/fortress of redemption).

This is different from shooting in which only one model gets to throw a grenade.

boyd wrote:
I have the big rule book - not the dark vengence rule book.

On page 95 of my rule book, it says that battlements are defined as building or structure that has a flat roof that can accomodate units. Battlements do not have fire points and use the normal rules for line of sight. The difference between a building is that you can shoot back at these units instead of firing at the building. Also the unit is not fearless because they are not in a building. The battlement holds as many models as can be fit on the structure.

In my opinion, the landing pad would count as a battlement because it fits the definition above - the rules for the landing pad indicate that it can hold as many models that can fit, it has no fire points, you can shoot at the models and you're not hitting the building, you're hitting the model's armor.

Now assaulting the battlements: Units on battlements cannot be assaulted except by units in the building below them. Grenades, however can be employed against them by units assaulting below the building. When a unit assaults a bulding, any of its models that are within 8" of the battlements can each throw one grenate (if they have grenades) onto the battlements instead of striking the building in close combat, or throwing grenades into fire points. Grenades with blasts do d3 hits and grenades without blast do 1. Both grenades will also hit the building as well if there is an AV on the building (bastion/fortress of redemption).

This is different from shooting in which only one model gets to throw a grenade.

Sadly it's not a building nor a fortification.

 insaniak wrote:

 Crablezworth wrote:
So wait, you're saying you can just melt through the floor? what?

Yes, of course. Just as you can move through trees in a forest base.

What you're saying is a rhino can drive underneath a skyshield landing pad then tank shock up through the pad? Really?

Yes, because you can move through the elements of difficult terrain. Aside from for LOS purposes, the physical objects in a difficult terrain piece are just there to show that there is a piece of difficult terrain there.

You CANNOT move up through the floor of the Skyshield Landing Pad, nor can you move down through it. Just like you can't walk through the wall of a ruined building. If there's a window in the building, a hole, then yeah you could move through it. To get up and down from the Skyshield Pad you roll for Difficult Terrain needing 3" to get over the height factor, which you also have to do in a ruin or building level. But it's also a Fortification, not just terrain like a forest.
The floor and legs would block line of sight, but models could go underneath the Pad if they can fit, thus blocking LOS from the shooters on top of the Pad. While not clearly written, it's clearly modeled as a leveled structure, so I'm pretty certain vehicles cannot ride up upon it from ground level. Don't have my rulebook with me at the moment, but unless there's a rule you cannot deploy a vehicle on an upper level, you could deploy tanks on it (imagine they teleported down at the beginning of the battle).
I don't recall ever reading a rule that says vehicles cannot get an invulnerable save, but the Skyshield rules say a unit on top of it receive a 4+ invulnerable save, that issue I'll have to check up upon.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Crablezworth wrote:

boyd wrote:
I have the big rule book - not the dark vengence rule book.

On page 95 of my rule book, it says that battlements are defined as building or structure that has a flat roof that can accomodate units. Battlements do not have fire points and use the normal rules for line of sight. The difference between a building is that you can shoot back at these units instead of firing at the building. Also the unit is not fearless because they are not in a building. The battlement holds as many models as can be fit on the structure.

In my opinion, the landing pad would count as a battlement because it fits the definition above - the rules for the landing pad indicate that it can hold as many models that can fit, it has no fire points, you can shoot at the models and you're not hitting the building, you're hitting the model's armor.

Now assaulting the battlements: Units on battlements cannot be assaulted except by units in the building below them. Grenades, however can be employed against them by units assaulting below the building. When a unit assaults a bulding, any of its models that are within 8" of the battlements can each throw one grenate (if they have grenades) onto the battlements instead of striking the building in close combat, or throwing grenades into fire points. Grenades with blasts do d3 hits and grenades without blast do 1. Both grenades will also hit the building as well if there is an AV on the building (bastion/fortress of redemption).

This is different from shooting in which only one model gets to throw a grenade.

Sadly it's not a building nor a fortification.

Why is it in the Fortifications section then?