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A definite yes from me. Picked up the Legends of the High Seas rulebook without even looking around for suitable models first. Figured that at a push I could just convert something up from the Warhammer range.

 Peregrine wrote:

There are alot of games out there that have been well-reviewed and analyzed, it's just that folks have to take the initiative to go out and find them.

Sure. What I mean is that for me to invest the time into playing an alternative set of rules for my models I want to have a reason for it, besides "because it's different"....

I wouldn't be so quick to discard low production rules. I like nice production values as much as the next guy, but I'd much rather have a nice playing game in a B&W PDF (Song of Blades and Heroes, Mech Attack, etc) than a high production values tome that I can't summon up the urge to play (battletech). Some rulesets do both, but not as many as I'd like.

The subject of the thread was whether you'd buy rules, not whether you'd use free ones...
...if you want $5 for a pdf download, I'll settle for plain text with professional-level editing. If you want me to buy your $50 book I expect it to be at the same level as a $50 book for 40k/D&D/etc....

I think we're pretty much on the same page here. A ruleset has to have real benefits over the existing rules to make it worth playing. Most of the games my club plays we've picked because they have more streamlined mechanics that make for faster play while still retaining tactical aspects. We also specifically pick rulesets with unit creation mechanics so we can use a wider variety of figures in games. These are big "selling points" for us.

As for the "buy" subject of the thread, most of the rulesets I listed are available for sale and are well done, they aren't as flashy as 40k, but are priced accordingly. I think we agree it is expected for lower production value rulesets to have lower costs.

-Song of Blades and Mech Attack are 8 dollar downloads with art, pics and diagrams, but not glossy production a'la GW.
-Tomorrow's War is a hardback with production values nearly as high as GW, but isn't as big so only goes for about 25-35 bucks depending on where you buy it.

Still, it's a shame the OP's group didn't consider some of the better developed free rulesets out there. It's a no-risk way to try a different style of gameplay. Some are nearly as good as for-sale options (In The Emperor's Name) and some are rules engines that were formerly well regarded games (WarEngine used to be Shockforce, No Limits is basically VOR).

"Would you buy rules to a miniature game that didn't produce miniatures?"

Of course. In fact, the modern obsession with "you can't play this game unless you use OFFICIALLY SANCTIONED MINIS" (and, let's face it, 40K players are the worst of the bunch where this is concerned) is both neurotic and asinine.

Folks, nobody has a monopoly on good quality fantasy or sf minis. Play with what you want, and report anyone who says you can't to the nearest social worker.

In fact, I'll extend this a little further. Those imaginative gamers who are willing to create their own scenarios or sub-rules within established rulesets often have no choice but to use what minis are available.

A common situation is the popularity of Victorian Science Fiction gaming. Let's say you want to extend your system to allow a battle between British Redcoats and Barsoomian Green Martians. You might or might not have a hard time finding a company that makes both.

In fact, one of my favorite games, and a game of considerable popularity, is Hordes of the Things, which is specifically geared to all scales and all manufacturers.

Yes of course. As someone about pointed out the GW model of having both rules and figures produced by the same company is a rather new thing in the world of gaming.

In Historical gaming it’s still almost unheard of for a miniature range to be tied to a ruleset. Flames of War is the obvious exception, but there is still crossover as many people use the rules with other miniatures and vice versa. Even Bolt Action is open to almost any range of WW2 Miniatures you care to mention.

If you're unwilling to try a ruleset just because you will have to buy the miniatures from another company, well that’s your loss.

Not only do I do so, but I also buy figures from companies that have rule sets and use those figures with other rules. For example, my GW tyranids have seen a ton more duty as Aliens using 2-3 different rules sets (including THW's 5150 and We Can Be Heroes II) than they have for 40k. My Epic armies are used with Future War Commander way more than they were ever used fro Epic. My LOTR figs get used with several rule sets as well.

 LuciusAR wrote:
"...In Historical gaming it’s still almost unheard of for a miniature range to be tied to a ruleset. Flames of War is the obvious exception, but there is still crossover as many people use the rules with other miniatures and vice versa.

I enjoy WW2 gaming, but just did not feel like painting one more damn army.

So, I got A&A minis, and I use them to play all my WW2 rules, including FOW. They are not as well sculpted, but they spruce up nice with a drybrush and a dip, and are cheap if you buy the right ones online.

So, I bought a set of FOW bases, and when I play that game, I just mount the A&A minis as appropriate with sticky tac.

I don't play tournaments, where I guess that would be frowned on, but in home games, or even pickup games at cons, I never heard anyone complain.

 Zinderneuf wrote:

I enjoy WW2 gaming, but just did not feel like painting one more damn army.

So, I got A&A minis, and I use them to play all my WW2 rules, including FOW. They are not as well sculpted, but they spruce up nice with a drybrush and a dip, and are cheap if you buy the right ones online...

I totally understand this feeling. My club wanted to try small scale sci-fi games (Future War Commander, Mech Attack and Panzer8 Sci-Fi) but had other projects going on taking up most of our gamign $ and time. So we acquired a few big lots of mechwarrior clix, divyed them up by faction and rebased them. It's been great to be able to dabble in this scale (10mm) without having invested a ton of time and $. Of course some of us have enjoyed it so much we've acquired new batches and are going to repaint....

http://rpgdiehard.blogspot.com/2010/12/future-war-commander-with-rebased.html
Not bad looking, and these don't have any repainting or touch-ups!

If the game had some generic rule set.

Like rules based on the size of the models base, the kind of weapon (ranged/melee) used, and amount of armor worn. But a game like that would be a nightmare to regulate and get proper rulings for if it was just rules, no models.

 ProtoClone wrote:
If the game had some generic rule set.

Like rules based on the size of the models base, the kind of weapon (ranged/melee) used, and amount of armor worn. But a game like that would be a nightmare to regulate and get proper rulings for if it was just rules, no models.

Yes and no. On the one hand some generic games like Song of Blades have regular rules updates and the author is actively engaged in communication with his fans online.

On the other hand, if you're the kind of person who wants "proper rulings" and to have all the minutae covered you probably aren't the target audience of generic and indie games which assume that the gamer is looking for an "outside the box" experience anyway. By virtue of the amount of control they give to players, all generic games are easy to break or min-max, so they count on the players working together, communicating and purposely not min-maxing or powergaming in order to have a balanced game.

Generic games are generally not designed for competetive or tournament play. Drop a couple of power gamers into a group of folks who are used to cooperatively organizing generic games and watch the fun disappear.

The belief that non-generic games are easy to regulate is ironic in that the most prominent pre-packaged game -40k- is such a nightmare to regulate that tournament ruling FAQ's often stretch over one hundred pages!

Eilif wrote:

 Zinderneuf wrote:

I enjoy WW2 gaming, but just did not feel like painting one more damn army.

So, I got A&A minis, and I use them to play all my WW2 rules, including FOW. They are not as well sculpted, but they spruce up nice with a drybrush and a dip, and are cheap if you buy the right ones online...

I totally understand this feeling. My club wanted to try small scale sci-fi games (Future War Commander, Mech Attack and Panzer8 Sci-Fi) but had other projects going on taking up most of our gamign $ and time. So we acquired a few big lots of mechwarrior clix, divyed them up by faction and rebased them. It's been great to be able to dabble in this scale (10mm) without having invested a ton of time and $. Of course some of us have enjoyed it so much we've acquired new batches and are going to repaint....

http://rpgdiehard.blogspot.com/2010/12/future-war-commander-with-rebased.html
Not bad looking, and these don't have any repainting or touch-ups!

Sounds like you play with some pretty cool people.

The belief that non-generic games are easy to regulate is ironic in that the most prominent pre-packaged game -40k- is such a nightmare to regulate that tournament ruling FAQ's often stretch over one hundred pages

Hell with the rulebook, codices that span more than one edition of rules, and great big FAQ/updates, a good portion of the time 40K is too much of a chore just to get friendly games in, much less go play a tournament! I can't even begin to imagine the information overload it takes to stay current so you don't get handed a nasty surprise by your opponent.

I don't know if I could ever get into the behemoth that is 40K right now if it wasn't for a decade and a half of experience with the games.

While on the other hand, many of the mentioned rulesets that aren't tied to a brand of minis are multitudes less unwieldy than branded games like those by GW. Mech Attack is a perfectly well playing and complete game packed into a ruleset about 1/4 the size of a 40K codex. Obviously it has a smaller set of units, etc to work with, but what it has works smoothly without pages and pages of updates and FAQ's, even if you were to scale those down accordingly.

I might, but the only sort of game I can think of would be an RPG or similar game where I have one mini to control, but the game setting allows total customization of that mini. Apart from historicals, I can't really think of any "generic" miniature war game where any figure I supply works- or at least I can't think of any I'm interested in.

I'm much more likely to go the other way, to buy figures for a game I have no intention of ever playing and may not know the rules for.

This thread makes me a bit nostalgic for my Warhammer Historical Books

Fun days indeed

Yes.
Have done will do again.
Totalitarian use of one companies product range is so limiting.

I simply buy the minatures I like best ,and use them with my favorite rules sets.

 Zinderneuf wrote:

Eilif wrote:

I totally understand this feeling. My club wanted to try small scale sci-fi games (Future War Commander, Mech Attack and Panzer8 Sci-Fi) but had other projects going on taking up most of our gamign $ and time. So we acquired a few big lots of mechwarrior clix, divyed them up by faction and rebased them. It's been great to be able to dabble in this scale (10mm) without having invested a ton of time and $. Of course some of us have enjoyed it so much we've acquired new batches and are going to repaint....

Sounds like you play with some pretty cool people.

To be honest, they really are a great group of mature and easygoing gamers. We've been playing for over 2 years now. It's by far the most fun and most consistent (every other week) group I've ever been a part of and several of them have become good friend's outside of gaming. You can see our models, games, and campaign at the blog in my sig.

I used to think it was the game or venue that made a great gaming experience. While those do contribute, I'm now convinced that the people you game with are the most important factor. It must be said though, that playing on good terrain and only with painted models helps too...

Most historical wargames are about that - they sell rulesets and you are completely free to choose which miniatures to use. And there is another segment of miniature-making companies which specialise into historical wargames. It is a total freedom unlike in WFB and 40K where You are stuck with same company all the time.

Some rules work as generic rulesets and some don't. Certianly historical rules do because there is a lot of choice for miniatures. Sci-fi and fantasy it really depends. If you come up with a very specific / non-generic setting you are going to run into trouble.

So it depends if it is easy or not to get models to represent everything in your rules or not. So as long as you keep it generic with no special characters I would buy it. But as soon as you start putting in named heroes and creating a look and feel that isn't generic I am going to want specific miniatures.

I bought All things Zombie.

TWO HOUR GAMES.

They have a gladiator game there as well that I'm in the middle of getting in on.

You have to get figures from other places. Foundary, Reaper, etc.

There are plenty of these sorts of companies out there.

Back in the day, thats how H.G. Wells started out, before he created GW. and the H.G. HHHobby

 Grot 6 wrote:
I bought All things Zombie.

TWO HOUR GAMES.

They have a gladiator game there as well that I'm in the middle of getting in on.
:

Yep, Two Hour Wargames...
http://www.twohourwargames.com/
...is a good example of a company that doesn't make miniatures for it's own games which they have versions for almost every genre. However, the rulesets are so well regarded by wargamers, that some miniatures companies have approached them and asked if they'd do versions of their games (almost all of which are based on the THW "Reaction" game engine) for their lines of miniatures.

Personally I'm not a big fan of the "reaction" engine, (Didn't like 5150, but ATZ was a good game) but it is a very innovative system with alot of fans, and possibly the best system available for Solo Gaming (though the games aren't only solo in nature).

Every gamer owes it to themself to at least download and read through "Chain Reaction". It's a free version of their game engine.
http://www.twohourwargames.com/free.html
If you like it, you'll definitely like their other games.

Also of note, Ganesha Games, maker of Song of blades has made versions of their game to accompany other companies lines of figures.
-Song of the Splintered Lands: For the "Splintered Light" line of mostly sentient animal figures, though it's good for other brands as well.
-Song of Fur and Buttons: For the Eureka Miniatures line of Colonial British Teddy Bear figures (no, I'm not kidding!).
-Shadowsea; For the Shadowsea line of miniatures by Anti-Matter games.

Question-

Is Song of fire and blades free? Afew months back, I thought it was, then I saw a price tag on it for 8 pounds.

Not really an issue on the money, but I would like to know, before I pick it up.

No, I don't think it was ever free. I do know you can buy a PDF, or a print version, and now I think also a version made for a tablet/E-reader.

They do have an on line army builder which is free to use.

CptJake wrote:
No, I don't think it was ever free. I do know you can buy a PDF, or a print version, and now I think also a version made for a tablet/E-reader.

They do have an on line army builder which is free to use.

good to know, thanks

As Cpt. Jake says, Song of Blades and Heroes is not free. It and it's supplements are 8 dollars each. However, when you buy the download, you get free updates when they are released. Also, the online warband builder program is free.
http://www.ganeshagames.net/extra_info_pages.php?pages_id=17
I've been playing SBH for about 3 years and have purchased all the supplements. In that time I've received a free upgrade to 4 different products.
You can find SBH and other games from Ganesha here:
http://www.ganeshagames.net/index.php?cPath=1_6
The author is most active on his yahoo group here:
http://games.groups.yahoo.com/group/songofblades/

There's also games like Fanticide, which (while additionally being a great set of rules) has it's own official line of miniatures but has a warband/points creation system. The rulebook even encourages you to use whichever models you have or want to use. I've got the official Creeps models but my game group will be using Warhammer, Confrontation, etc models.

I will, if the rules have something new and intereting to learn from.

Miniatures are not needed.

Considering the continued existence of places like this...

http://www.wargamevault.com/

I would guess that people do buy rules without miniatures. I would even go so far as to say that there may well be more people buying rules without miniatures than rules with miniatures (granted, because their are so many rules without miniatures...each of them have a smaller player base).

If you look at their top 100 list and remove the terrain items, you will find plenty of rules which are sold with no miniature support from the rule producer (or possibly with paper counters). While it is definitely the norm for historical games - it isn't rare at all for fantasy or science fiction games either.

In our own local group - we try to fit a few different independent rules in each year...the majority of which are not historical and do not have miniature support. Many of our favorite games do not have any miniatures which are sold by the rules developer.