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 Hedgehog wrote:
Britain has always been welcoming to new cultures, because in the end they make us stronger.

That's a pretty difficult theory to test. Also, the idea that we've always been welcoming to new cultures is patently untrue. Britons fought bloody wars against the Romans, Angles, Saxons, Jutes, Vikings and Normans in an attempt to stop them coming into our country. That it didn't work and we had to adapt is not an example of how tolerant and accepting of new cultures we are. You can hardly say that immigration has been a controversy-free issue even in the last century, to say nothing of this one.

The British culture we have today has been cobbled together from the best bits of so many other cultures dating back several thousand years that it's almost impossible to point to any single defining aspect of 'Britishness' and conclude that it doesn't have roots in another foreign idea.

That's a platitude. The same is true of any national or ethnic culture. That doesn't invalidate people's reasons for wanting to preserve their heritage. Or do you believe Native Americans should ditch the feathers and get with the program, because after all, it's a brave new world?

And where do you get the idea that our identity has been cobbled together from the 'best bits' of other cultures? That's not how acculturation works. If there is no such thing as 'Britishness' then there is no such thing as Britain - as Britain clearly exists, the same is true of 'Britishness'. One could argue that fair play, politeness, dry humour (turning into ribaldry when drunk), personal liberty, property-owning democracy, protestant work-ethic, noblesse oblige, grace under fire, ingenuity and eccentricity can all be found in other cultures, but it is the peculiar combination of them that go together to make Britishness. Just because a table is made of wood, that doesn't mean isn't a table, and therefore different to a chair. If that makes sense?


Probably not.

I hear enough of these "immigrants are ruining ...." arguments in my country.

All of these statements in the end are reduced to this: "I am scared of change and people who look and speak differently to me"

Immigrants are just people, grow the feth up.

Bullockist wrote:
I hear enough of these "immigrants are ruining ...." arguments in my country.

All of these statements in the end are reduced to this: "I am scared of change and people who look and speak differently to me"

Immigrants are just people, grow the feth up.

/thread.

No it's most certainly not /thread.

You shout from the side lines and clap dumbly as the country goes to gak, money bleeds out of the country and vulnerable people are left to fend for themselves. Don't worry though it's OK for a pensioner to freeze in their own home and for a homeless person to remain on the streets as long as some non contributing foreigner is housed and given ample benefits. FAIRNESS FOR ALL!

So you're saying that essentially most immigrants are scrounging benefit claimants? Unlike native (whatever that means) Brits?

 Medium of Death wrote:
No it's most certainly not /thread.

You shout from the side lines and clap dumbly as the country goes to gak, money bleeds out of the country and vulnerable people are left to fend for themselves. Don't worry though it's OK for a pensioner to freeze in their own home and for a homeless person to remain on the streets as long as some non contributing foreigner is housed and given ample benefits. FAIRNESS FOR ALL!

The pensioner IS getting govt. support, the homeless person has the opportunity to get govt. support, same as the immigrant. That is fairness.

The point being we need to sort out the people at home before letting more people in. You don't have a choice but to help people born here, why complicate the problem?

That's not even the point. The point is, what's wrong with wanting to protect our culture from the influence of hundreds of thousands of people who don't share our cultural values? What's wrong with thinking that THEY should change to fit in with US, as opposed to the other way around?

Hitchens called it absolutely spot-on the other night on Question Time - it's liberal bigotry. Multiculturalism is not an objective 'good'. It's debatable. The problem is, only one side wants to have the debate, the other wants to crush it. Raise concerns about about uncontrolled immigration and smug, self-congratulatory 'liberal' arseholes will tell you you're a racist, or you're 'afraid' of foreigners, as if they're the enlightened ones. We've seen it in this very thread. It is that sort of attitude that turns mere concern into anger on the part of a majority population that wasn't consulted, didn't vote for massive immigration, doesn't support it and is now feeling its effects.

Living in a country that has "mass" immigration for quite a while now , i still fail to see any effects.
Cultural value? Those things are not written in stone, they change with time anyways , immigration just adds more diversity.

The line "change to fit with us instead of the other way round". How has your life changed due to the influx of immigrants?
Immigrants Do change to fit in, their children change even more and by the 3rd generation there is feth all difference. This has been the same for millenia, it's kind of a cultural smelting. These things take time , how many British ex-pats living in other countries keep their own cultural values? FOR SHAME! they should change everything the minute they leave Britain.
It is unrealistic to expect people to change massively.
what makes you think that having immigrants in your country places your culture under attack?

It's incredibly naive and downright moronic to think that immigrants in general are non-contributors to a country.

That's all there is to it.

Channel 4 did a very very interesting documentary several years ago about immigrants and how much they contributed to society, they even broke it down by nation, so that an average Somalian immigrant could be seen to drain the economy by -300% of what they contributed and the average Indian immigrant could be seen to contribute +500% what the took in terms of benefits and resources.

Overall, if I remember correctly, it was shown that immigrants from other countries overall contributed positively financially compared to what they removed as benefits.

 Medium of Death wrote:
The point being we need to sort out the people at home before letting more people in. You don't have a choice but to help people born here, why complicate the problem?

So by your criteria I'm one of those who shouldn't receive any kind of state assistance? I wasn't born in the UK...

 MeanGreenStompa wrote:
Channel 4 did a very very interesting documentary several years ago about immigrants and how much they contributed to society, they even broke it down by nation, so that an average Somalian immigrant could be seen to drain the economy by -300% of what they contributed and the average Indian immigrant could be seen to contribute +500% what the took in terms of benefits and resources.

So the guiding principal of nations is to make as much money as possible within their borders? By that logic we should be selling nukes to the Iranians.

Overall, if I remember correctly, it was shown that immigrants from other countries overall contributed positively financially compared to what they removed as benefits.

That's good for them. The fact that they're doing this at the expense of the living standards of millions of British people doesn't bother you?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Bullockist wrote:
Living in a country that has "mass" immigration for quite a while now , i still fail to see any effects.

I've been to Australia a fair bit in my life. If there's one thing you guys have, it's space.

Britishness has by and large been banished from huge swathes of our cities. I actually get a culture shock whenever I go to Derby or (more so) Nottingham. That seems to bother me, if it doesn't/wouldn't bother you then fair enough.

 Testify wrote:

 MeanGreenStompa wrote:
Channel 4 did a very very interesting documentary several years ago about immigrants and how much they contributed to society, they even broke it down by nation, so that an average Somalian immigrant could be seen to drain the economy by -300% of what they contributed and the average Indian immigrant could be seen to contribute +500% what the took in terms of benefits and resources.

So the guiding principal of nations is to make as much money as possible within their borders? By that logic we should be selling nukes to the Iranians.

That isn't even remotely what was implied by that statement. Try harder.

Overall, if I remember correctly, it was shown that immigrants from other countries overall contributed positively financially compared to what they removed as benefits.

That's good for them. The fact that they're doing this at the expense of the living standards of millions of British people doesn't bother you?

Once they've become citizens, they ARE British people. The whole mentality of "us vs. them" is very sad.

 Testify wrote:

Bullockist wrote:
Living in a country that has "mass" immigration for quite a while now , i still fail to see any effects.

I've been to Australia a fair bit in my life. If there's one thing you guys have, it's space.

...along with VERY strict immigration controls. Same for the US. But apparently we're the idiots for wanting ours to be tighter than they already are, when a whole continent effectively has unfettered access to our labour market and public services.

 MrScience wrote:
It's incredibly naive and downright moronic to think that immigrants in general are non-contributors to a country.

That's all there is to it.

Don't you need proof of your statement?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 MeanGreenStompa wrote:
Channel 4 did a very very interesting documentary several years ago about immigrants and how much they contributed to society, they even broke it down by nation, so that an average Somalian immigrant could be seen to drain the economy by -300% of what they contributed and the average Indian immigrant could be seen to contribute +500% what the took in terms of benefits and resources.

Overall, if I remember correctly, it was shown that immigrants from other countries overall contributed positively financially compared to what they removed as benefits.

Like this. This is reference to evidence used.

 Testify wrote:

I've been to Australia a fair bit in my life. If there's one thing you guys have, it's space.

Britishness has by and large been banished from huge swathes of our cities. I actually get a culture shock whenever I go to Derby or (more so) Nottingham. That seems to bother me, if it doesn't/wouldn't bother you then fair enough.

Australia may have space, but we don't have water, our constraints on population aren't just as visible as yours. A few years ago victoria was under 10% water in it's dams.
I don't get the whole culture shock thing. I actually prefer to have more cultures around me. After visiting a country town for a week, i love going back to the city and seeing a plethora of people. Why does having a group of people who look different/talk different in an area bother you?

Bullockist wrote:

 Testify wrote:

I've been to Australia a fair bit in my life. If there's one thing you guys have, it's space.

Britishness has by and large been banished from huge swathes of our cities. I actually get a culture shock whenever I go to Derby or (more so) Nottingham. That seems to bother me, if it doesn't/wouldn't bother you then fair enough.

Australia may have space, but we don't have water, our constraints on population aren't just as visible as yours. A few years ago victoria was under 10% water in it's dams.
I don't get the whole culture shock thing. I actually prefer to have more cultures around me. After visiting a country town for a week, i love going back to the city and seeing a plethora of people. Why does having a group of people who look different/talk different in an area bother you?

When you have to start acting differently in your own country? Become a minority in your own region? Have a sudden inferiority complex about your local cuisine? (ok thats British specific, we all know you tried to conquer the world, just to get better supper options).

 Medium of Death wrote:
No it's most certainly not /thread.

You shout from the side lines and clap dumbly as the country goes to gak, money bleeds out of the country and vulnerable people are left to fend for themselves. Don't worry though it's OK for a pensioner to freeze in their own home and for a homeless person to remain on the streets as long as some non contributing foreigner is housed and given ample benefits. FAIRNESS FOR ALL!

Theres me thinking that it was irresponsible bankers that caused the global economy to crash, apparently it was all immigrants fault. Shockingly immigrants from outside the EU even have restrictions on the benefits that they can claim.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Albatross wrote:
That's not even the point. The point is, what's wrong with wanting to protect our culture from the influence of hundreds of thousands of people who don't share our cultural values? What's wrong with thinking that THEY should change to fit in with US, as opposed to the other way around?

I take it that you object to US TV programmes as well then? After all they have had a huge impact on the culture of the UK.

Maintaining a 'pure' culture will never, ever work in such an open society as ours. It it isn't changed from without it is changed from within.

Palindrome wrote:

 Medium of Death wrote:
No it's most certainly not /thread.

You shout from the side lines and clap dumbly as the country goes to gak, money bleeds out of the country and vulnerable people are left to fend for themselves. Don't worry though it's OK for a pensioner to freeze in their own home and for a homeless person to remain on the streets as long as some non contributing foreigner is housed and given ample benefits. FAIRNESS FOR ALL!

Theres me thinking that it was irresponsible bankers that caused the global economy to crash, apparently it was all immigrants fault. Shockingly immigrants from outside the EU even have restrictions on the benefits that they can claim.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Albatross wrote:
That's not even the point. The point is, what's wrong with wanting to protect our culture from the influence of hundreds of thousands of people who don't share our cultural values? What's wrong with thinking that THEY should change to fit in with US, as opposed to the other way around?

I take it that you object to US TV programmes as well then? After all they have had a huge impact on the culture of the UK.

Maintaining a 'pure' culture will never, ever work in such an open society as ours. It it isn't changed from without it is changed from within.

I will admit, Jersey Shore could be considered an act of war, by California/New Jersey on the rest of the world.

Bullockist wrote:

 Testify wrote:

I've been to Australia a fair bit in my life. If there's one thing you guys have, it's space.

Britishness has by and large been banished from huge swathes of our cities. I actually get a culture shock whenever I go to Derby or (more so) Nottingham. That seems to bother me, if it doesn't/wouldn't bother you then fair enough.

Australia may have space, but we don't have water, our constraints on population aren't just as visible as yours. A few years ago victoria was under 10% water in it's dams.
I don't get the whole culture shock thing. I actually prefer to have more cultures around me. After visiting a country town for a week, i love going back to the city and seeing a plethora of people. Why does having a group of people who look different/talk different in an area bother you?

I can quite understand it if you live in an "English" town where 80% of the local population are Bangladeshi.

It's like if you go to Russia or Japan, and you can't even read the road signs.

Once they've become citizens, they ARE British people. The whole mentality of "us vs. them" is very sad.

A dog born in a stable is not a horse.

 Ratbarf wrote:

Once they've become citizens, they ARE British people. The whole mentality of "us vs. them" is very sad.

A dog born in a stable is not a horse.

Legally they are.

 Ratbarf wrote:

Once they've become citizens, they ARE British people. The whole mentality of "us vs. them" is very sad.

A dog born in a stable is not a horse.

What if the dog is as big as a horse?

Legally they are.

Legally a horse and factually a horse are two separate things. Legally everyone is equal, factually they are not.

What if the dog is as big as a horse?

Then the dog is freaking awesome, though still not a horse.

 Ratbarf wrote:

Legally a horse and factually a horse are two separate things. Legally everyone is equal, factually they are not.

If you want to take it to extremes then I am also not British. My passport says I am and legally my family has been since 1707 (and before that they were Scottish and before that Islemen/Norwegian) yet until I went to school I barely even spoke English and I may as well have grown up in Denmark or Spain for all the British (i.e. English) I feel.

I may as well be an immigrant, in fact if there was a few more wrinkles in history I would be.

 Frazzled wrote:

Bullockist wrote:

 Testify wrote:

I've been to Australia a fair bit in my life. If there's one thing you guys have, it's space.

Britishness has by and large been banished from huge swathes of our cities. I actually get a culture shock whenever I go to Derby or (more so) Nottingham. That seems to bother me, if it doesn't/wouldn't bother you then fair enough.

Australia may have space, but we don't have water, our constraints on population aren't just as visible as yours. A few years ago victoria was under 10% water in it's dams.
I don't get the whole culture shock thing. I actually prefer to have more cultures around me. After visiting a country town for a week, i love going back to the city and seeing a plethora of people. Why does having a group of people who look different/talk different in an area bother you?

When you have to start acting differently in your own country? Become a minority in your own region? Have a sudden inferiority complex about your local cuisine? (ok thats British specific, we all know you tried to conquer the world, just to get better supper options).

It's called change frazzled, it is going to happen continuously throughout your life. Sometimes you are just not going to be able to blame a sector of the community blindly for it, although blaming technology for change is also very popular.

I worked in a job for years where i was a minority (ethnicity-wise) , I used to describe myself as an Island of Australiana in a sea of Korea. I don't see the big deal. Your are in a minority....and?.... learn to adapt , foreigners aren't scary, it might also surprise you that they don't eat babies and steal your women.

That dog IS a horse.
If you can ride it it's a horse, although going by this theory some hugely obese people would be regarded as horses - perhaps a diet of grass straw and the occasional carrot would be good for them.

I want a dog-horse! and a cat- horsemans' flail! and a possum-helmet with a blue- tongue-lizard-chinstrap!

Palindrome wrote:

 Ratbarf wrote:

Legally a horse and factually a horse are two separate things. Legally everyone is equal, factually they are not.

If you want to take it to extremes then I am also not British. My passport says I am and legally my family has been since 1707 (and before that they were Scottish and before that Islemen/Norwegian) yet until I went to school I barely even spoke English and I may as well have grown up in Denmark or Spain for all the British (i.e. English) I feel.

I may as well be an immigrant, in fact if there was a few more wrinkles in history I would be.

If my nana had bollocks she'd be my grandad. What's your point? That you don't feel British because Scotland was a seperate state before the Act of Union? That's a fairly flimsy argument in favour of the British population accepting record levels of immigration..

Palindrome wrote:

 Ratbarf wrote:

Legally a horse and factually a horse are two separate things. Legally everyone is equal, factually they are not.

If you want to take it to extremes then I am also not British. My passport says I am and legally my family has been since 1707 (and before that they were Scottish and before that Islemen/Norwegian) yet until I went to school I barely even spoke English and I may as well have grown up in Denmark or Spain for all the British (i.e. English) I feel.

I may as well be an immigrant, in fact if there was a few more wrinkles in history I would be.

I don't know about Briitsh, but I think we can conclude you're not a horse, unless you were born in a barn, in which case you are a dog..er um..what?

 Frazzled wrote:

Palindrome wrote:

 Ratbarf wrote:

Legally a horse and factually a horse are two separate things. Legally everyone is equal, factually they are not.

If you want to take it to extremes then I am also not British. My passport says I am and legally my family has been since 1707 (and before that they were Scottish and before that Islemen/Norwegian) yet until I went to school I barely even spoke English and I may as well have grown up in Denmark or Spain for all the British (i.e. English) I feel.

I may as well be an immigrant, in fact if there was a few more wrinkles in history I would be.

I don't know about Briitsh, but I think we can conclude you're not a horse, unless you were born in a barn, in which case you are a dog..er um..what?

As long as he isn't a cat, right?