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The Inquisition's roots are that they were simple witchhunters. Tasked with harvesting psykers for the choir. The black ships even predate the Inquisition. Those guys became The Inquisition. It just kept growing and growing in power and jurisdiction until everything was their mandate.

Nope. The Inquisition was founded by Malcador who chose eight Astartes and four normal humans at the direction of the Emperor.

 Manchu wrote:
Nope. The Inquisition was founded by Malcador who chose eight Astartes and four normal humans at the direction of the Emperor.

Yes, that's the upper echelon but obviously they brought in the black ships already set up under their command. That is the main duty of the Inquisition. The need to create the Inquisition most likely happened when they unified the old school witchhunters with some sort of Malleus-like (possibly the actual Malleus) cadre of daemonhunters.

The Sisters of Silence were not the Inquisition, plain and simple.

 KamikazeCanuck wrote:

 Manchu wrote:
Nope. The Inquisition was founded by Malcador who chose eight Astartes and four normal humans at the direction of the Emperor.

Yes, that's the upper echelon but obviously they brought in the black ships already set up under their command. That is the main duty of the Inquisition. The need to create the Inquisition most likely happened when they unified the old school witchhunters with some sort of Malleus-like (possibly the actual Malleus) cadre of daemonhunters.

I don't believe so. The black ships were always under the command of the adeptus astra telepathica, which is a completely separate organization from the Inquisition.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Alpharius wrote:
My Loxatl example was on purpose - to show the absurdity of your idea that Garro would found the Ordo... Xenos.

In the wake of the largest betrayal and calamity to befall Mankind, I think that an Organization to deal with that, and not aliens, would probably be at the forefront.

Please go back and read what I wrote.

So much smart ass - I'm not sure how it can all be contained in a single individual...

 Kanluwen wrote:
That, again, is the assumption but we haven't seen too much which suggests, to me at least, that is the case.

I'm more inclined to think that he is going to be the "founder" of the Deathwatch, given the way the Deathwatch is now evolving from the RPG. It's a given that he will be a founding member of the Inquisition though.

I think it's a rather sensible evolution, where not only do they deal with aliens but everything and anything that the Astartes could reasonably be needed for but the Grey Knights might not be needed for.

Hmm...

I'm going to say that the Ordo Malleus and Xenos were both the original Ordo's of the Inquisition, with the Hereticus added much later. The Deathwatch didn't have to exist in M32 even if the Ordo Xenos did though.

Deathwatch still doesn't make sense.
When fighting Tyranids, I'd rather call an Ultramarine who successfully defended Ultramar against them, than a guy "specialized in fighting anything non-human". When I plan an assault on an Ork boss, I'd rather call assault specialists like Blood Angels etc.

You can't be specialized in fighting anything non-human. At best you have experience fighting one or two specific Xeno species, but not all of them from Enslaver to Necrons to Tau.

Stop thinking of it from an end-result perspective. The issue is that there are some Inquisitors who specialize in fighting Xenos. Some of them fight Orks, some of them fight Eldar, etc, etc, etc. But they pool their resources and knowledge under the umbrella of Ordo Xenos. Ordo Xenos, like any other Inquisitorial formation, can requisition any resource in the Imperium -- including Space Marines. But recklessly handling relations with Astartes isn't a great way to get results. Therefore, the requisitioning of Astartes warriors by Ordo Xenos is formalized and the Deathwatch is born.

 Manchu wrote:
Stop thinking of it from an end-result perspective. The issue is that there are some Inquisitors who specialize in fighting Xenos. Some of them fight Orks, some of them fight Eldar, etc, etc, etc. But they pool their resources and knowledge under the umbrella of Ordo Xenos. Ordo Xenos, like any other Inquisitorial formation, can requisition any resource in the Imperium -- including Space Marines. But recklessly handling relations with Astartes isn't a great way to get results. Therefore, the requisitioning of Astartes warriors by Ordo Xenos is formalized and the Deathwatch is born.

Good point - and probably more to what 'actually' happened.

Though I'd still argue that any Xenos branch of the Inquisition probably didn't gain momentum until well after the Scourging.

 Alpharius wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Alpharius wrote:
My Loxatl example was on purpose - to show the absurdity of your idea that Garro would found the Ordo... Xenos.

In the wake of the largest betrayal and calamity to befall Mankind, I think that an Organization to deal with that, and not aliens, would probably be at the forefront.

Please go back and read what I wrote.

So much smart ass - I'm not sure how it can all be contained in a single individual...

 Kanluwen wrote:
That, again, is the assumption but we haven't seen too much which suggests, to me at least, that is the case.

I'm more inclined to think that he is going to be the "founder" of the Deathwatch, given the way the Deathwatch is now evolving from the RPG. It's a given that he will be a founding member of the Inquisition though.

I think it's a rather sensible evolution, where not only do they deal with aliens but everything and anything that the Astartes could reasonably be needed for but the Grey Knights might not be needed for.

Hmm...

Ordo Xenos != Deathwatch.

I know it's a silly distinction, but it's an important one. The Ordo Xenos is entirely sensible to be founded at the same time as the Ordo Malleus.
The Ordo Hereticus would come later, after Vandire's Reign of Blood and the whole religious shenanigans thing, as a way to police the organizations of the Imperium and prevent one man from gathering power like that again.

The reason I suggested, in quotes, that Garro "founded" the Deathwatch is that it could have been an organization which was not the same as what we see now. It could have been an organization made up of Loyalists from the Traitor Legions who were given a chance to continue their service to the Imperium.

I have no problem with Ordo Xenos, that makes sense to me.

I think Deathwatch is just a formalization of the Astartes obligation to help the Inquisition. It saves face for the Chapters to send recruits rather than having them taken plus, as Kan mentioned, the Chapters might get back some valuable knowledge (as in DoWII).

Where's the Atomic Facepalm GIF when you need it?

There is NO Deatwatch without the Ordo Xenos.

Kan, are you really suggesting (possibly without knowing it) that Garro helped found Ordo Xenos rather than the Deathwatch?

At this point, I am thinking Garro and the seven other Astartes plus the four humans Malcador found for the Emperor simply founded "the Inquisition" and all Ordos came afterward, organizationally speaking.

 Manchu wrote:
Kan, are you really suggesting (possibly without knowing it) that Garro helped found Ordo Xenos rather than the Deathwatch?

At this point, I am thinking Garro and the seven other Astartes plus the four humans Malcador found for the Emperor simply founded "the Inquisition" and all Ordos came afterward, organizationally speaking.

I am not, or at least that is not my intent.

What I'm suggesting (or my intent is to suggest it at least) is that Garro helped, in the course of helping to found the Inquisition, found an organization within the Inquisition (or the organization which would be the Inquisition later) that utilized Astartes from various Legions. This organization would be founded primarily of Loyalists from the Traitor Legions with a number of individuals from Loyalist Legions who operated with no ties to Primarchs or Legions (hence the "clean" gray armor that we see Garro wearing in the audiobooks, which is reminiscent of modern special forces when operating in advisory capacities or deniable situations) and whose first loyalty is to Malcador the Sigilite.

That, to me, is an organization very similar to the Deathwatch. They have no ties to their Chapter while they serve within the Deathwatch, beyond retaining a shoulderpad with the Chapter's heraldry. Their first loyalty is to the Deathwatch, and by extension the Imperium and its representatives in the Inquisition.

This group you're referring to does NOT sound like the Deathwatch to me.

"Deathwatchers" are not permanent members. They go back to their home Chapters ... Garro and Friends cannot do this. There is some argument that Black Shields also have no Chapter to which they return but they are the exception. If Garro and Friends founded this hypothetical institution according to their own experience, Black Shields would rather be the rule. Furthermore, Deathwatchers aren't only loyal to the DW. That's why they maintain their Chapter heraldry. On this score, what you're describing sounds more like the GK than DW to me.

 Manchu wrote:
This group you're referring to does NOT sound like the Deathwatch to me.

That's why in my post for the Black Library thread I had referenced a kind of "proto-Deathwatch" after further consideration. It might not be the Deathwatch as WE know it now, but there very well could be an organization which could have served as an inspiration later on.

"Deathwatchers" are not permanent members. They go back to their home Chapters ... Garro and Friends cannot do this. There is some argument that Black Shields also have no Chapter to which they return but they are the exception. If Garro and Friends founded this hypothetical institution according to their own experience, Black Shields would rather be the rule.

I'd argue that we do not know yet entirely about this one. Rubio, for example, could return to the Ultramarines with (potentially) no censure. As the Knights-Errant(Jim Swallow's actual term for Garro and his company, referenced here) died off, we could see a shift towards Astartes who would be deemed "Black Shields" being the exception rather than the rule.

There's a lot of time between the Heresy and its immediate aftermath and the current timeframe.
Which on further thought actually is part of the problem...
The immediate aftermath of the Heresy and the founding of the Inquisition has a bit of leeway for things like the formation of Ordos and how they would behave militarily. I cannot imagine them having Chambers Militant right at the outset, given that the Horus Heresy is so fresh on the minds of the Imperium.

Furthermore, Deathwatchers aren't only loyal to the DW. That's why they maintain their Chapter heraldry. On this score, what you're describing sounds more like the GK than DW to me.

They maintain their Chapter heraldry so as not to offend the armor's machine spirit and as a tie to where they come from.
It is certainly a bit of a stretch and a lot of speculation on my part, but something about it feels like the "right" track where Swallow is heading with Garro's Knights-Errant.

You're really grasping at straws here Kan, trying to shoehorn Xenos/Deathwatch into an immediate post-Heresy start.

Highly unlikely and improbable.

Which means, that's the New History we'll probably get!

Actually, probably not.

The easier approach would be to admit that you're initial theory is not really possible (i.e., wrong)...

The "machine spirit" bit is self-consciously superstitious fluff. But from a completely in-universe perspective, consider why the machine spirit might be offended if the heraldry is obscured and why a Black Shield doesn't have this issue.

 Alpharius wrote:
You're really grasping at straws here Kan, trying to shoehorn Xenos/Deathwatch into an immediate post-Heresy start.

Highly unlikely and improbable.

Which means, that's the New History we'll probably get!

Actually, probably not.

See, everything we have suggests that the Ordo Xenos has existed since the Inquisition's inception. We can (relatively safely) assume that the Imperium was not so dense as to consider there being no more alien threats.

I'll grant that we may not see the Deathwatch as a recognizable entity, but I still maintain that we might see some kind of precursor organization!

The easier approach would be to admit that you're initial theory is not really possible (i.e., wrong)...

NEVER!

Is there really any evidence that either Ordo Malleus or Ordo Xenos existed since the foundation of the Inquisition? The closest we have (to my knowledge) is Malcador's founding of the GK. But the GK is a part of the Ordo Malleus and not the Ordo Malleus itself. The Daemonhammer could certainly have come later on and incorporated into itself the Grey Knights.

 Manchu wrote:
Is there really any evidence that either Ordo Malleus or Ordo Xenos existed since the foundation of the Inquisition? The closest we have (to my knowledge) is Malcador's founding of the GK. But the GK is a part of the Ordo Malleus and not the Ordo Malleus itself. The Daemonhammer could certainly have come later on and incorporated into itself the Grey Knights.

Codex: Daemonhunters, page 6

Legend tells that it was around the time of the Second Founding that the Emperor ordered the creation of this secret Chapter of Space Marines. The fragile Imperium had only just survived the galactic civil war of the Horus Heresy, and was still very much at the mercy of the powers of Chaos. Where other Space Marine Chapters were created from the gene-seed of existing Chapters, the Grey Knights were unique in that their gene-seed was said by some to have come from the Emperor's own flesh. The Ordo Malleus was in its infancy at this time, the corruption of Horus lending new impetus to the creation of an order tasked with the hunting and elimination of the daemonic.

I could not find a reference to it in the Grey Knights codex, but that neither confirm/denies it for the time being.

It could be retconned though at some point.

jareddm wrote:

 KamikazeCanuck wrote:

 Manchu wrote:
Nope. The Inquisition was founded by Malcador who chose eight Astartes and four normal humans at the direction of the Emperor.

Yes, that's the upper echelon but obviously they brought in the black ships already set up under their command. That is the main duty of the Inquisition. The need to create the Inquisition most likely happened when they unified the old school witchhunters with some sort of Malleus-like (possibly the actual Malleus) cadre of daemonhunters.

I don't believe so. The black ships were always under the command of the adeptus astra telepathica, which is a completely separate organization from the Inquisition.

Aren't the Black Ships currently under the command of the Inquisition?

But not back then when there was no Inquisition.

Even in current 40k they're not under the inquisition. The adeptus astra telepathica is split in two broad groups. Half is the scholastica psykana which trains psykers, the other half is the black ship fleets. Whether or not sisters of silence still exist in modern 40k is still debatable, but if they did, I would put them under the astra telephathica as well.

 Manchu wrote:
We know Ordo Hereticus did not appear until after the Age of Apostasy. Although the exact date of the founding of the GK is unknown, it had to be before the end of Malcador's life since he founded them. But what about the Deathwatch? Were there alien-hunting specialist Inquisitors in the meantime?

I believe that the Deathwatch was founded during the Heresy making it M31, and whilst the primarchs still lived I would imagine that the space marines formed the core of any anti-xenos fighting. Although that is admittedly a guess as I'm not familiar with the Inquistion.

 AustonT wrote:

 Manchu wrote:
We know Ordo Hereticus did not appear until after the Age of Apostasy. Although the exact date of the founding of the GK is unknown, it had to be before the end of Malcador's life since he founded them. But what about the Deathwatch? Were there alien-hunting specialist Inquisitors in the meantime?

I believe that the Deathwatch was founded during the Heresy making it M31, and whilst the primarchs still lived I would imagine that the space marines formed the core of any anti-xenos fighting. Although that is admittedly a guess as I'm not familiar with the Inquistion.

There's nothing that actually says this though, so... where are you getting your guess material from?

jareddm wrote:
Even in current 40k they're not under the inquisition. The adeptus astra telepathica is split in two broad groups. Half is the scholastica psykana which trains psykers, the other half is the black ship fleets. Whether or not sisters of silence still exist in modern 40k is still debatable, but if they did, I would put them under the astra telephathica as well.

Do you have something to back that up? I think the Black Ships are essentially the Inquisition's fleet.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Well according to Lexicanum there's actually two types of Black ships. Inquisitorial ones and Adeptus Astra Telepathetica ones. Weird....

 KamikazeCanuck wrote:

jareddm wrote:
Even in current 40k they're not under the inquisition. The adeptus astra telepathica is split in two broad groups. Half is the scholastica psykana which trains psykers, the other half is the black ship fleets. Whether or not sisters of silence still exist in modern 40k is still debatable, but if they did, I would put them under the astra telephathica as well.

Do you have something to back that up? I think the Black Ships are essentially the Inquisition's fleet.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Well according to Lexicanum there's actually two types of Black ships. Inquisitorial ones and Adeptus Astra Telepathetica ones. Weird....

Codex Imperialis page 36.

The Inquisition black ships aren't the Back Ships that everyone knows though. They're basically just a fleet of ships for the Inquisition can do what they wish with. The Black Ships that we know are fully controlled by the Astra Telepathica, but, inquisitors have been known to ride them to get "first dibs" on any quality psykers that might be found.