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 Veteran Sergeant wrote:
Oh wait. That's not the next step. It's actually:

Dark Eldar have to eat souls.
Dark Eldar have to capture things with souls to eat souls.
Dark Eldar, as a society, may not have respect for other sentient life.
The Dark Eldar capture people, and rape them, and make them into pleasure slaves, and torture toys, and other heinous things.
The Dark Eldar eat souls to keep from having their own souls eaten.

Ohhhhhh, that's why they are evil. Suddenly it makes so much more sense.

I agree. For the third time I guess? Never claimed otherwise.

Nevermind that the Imperium does it because the universe sucks, and the Dark Eldar do it because they made the universe suck

This is where I disagree. Imperium does it because it made the universe suck.

They need the light to get to the distant planets. Many of those had unique, peaceful lifeforms that were given bolter to the face treatment, stripped of resources and turned into the breeding colonies of soldiers nobody cares about. IoM is holding the Chaos back. At the same time it's being it's number one supplier by a long shot.

Humans are not an innocent, misunderstood race that held against a gakky universe and wanted to make it a place worth living for all. They took numerous actions to make it a miserable place, especially for others.

In a game where EVERY faction does something "Evil" then by definition, no one is evil.

If you are arguing the good v evil dichotomy, then there are no greys, something either IS or is not. ALL the races in 40k are "evil" (there is no good, only WAR!).

Nothing good EVER happens in 40k. It's unrelentingly bleak. It's like Eastenders ramped up to eleventyone and pushed into the future.

The Dark Eldar are completely evil.
The revel in being evil, it's their bread and butter.

They live on pain, because they developed that way due to their lifestyle.

They are the True Eldar, that even at the most decadent point of the Eldritch Empire, hid away in the dark corners of the Webway, in a 'free city' unrestricted by the few limits of the empire at large.
It is the behavior they exhibit and still cling to that caused the birth of Slaanesh and the majority of their race to be slain and devoured.
There's alternatives, such as the Infinity Circuit, Soul Stones, dedicating yourself to Cegorach etc, yet they chose to be the way they are and enjoy it.

As for regular Eldar - they aren't good, but they're not exactly bad.
They're ambiguous, they do what they do to preserve their race - not help yours.

 chromedog wrote:
In a game where EVERY faction does something "Evil" then by definition, no one is evil.

If you are arguing the good v evil dichotomy, then there are no greys, something either IS or is not. ALL the races in 40k are "evil" (there is no good, only WAR!).

Nothing good EVER happens in 40k. It's unrelentingly bleak. It's like Eastenders ramped up to eleventyone and pushed into the future.

No no, the Dark Eldar are quote specifically evil, it's what they do, it's their thing.
They don't do something[i] evil, they do [i]everything evil. They don't do anything good unless it's by accident, or it's in aid of something funny, which is evil.

@chromedog: Although I appreciate the Eastenders comment, your analysis of 40k is pretty off base. Good does exist in the world 40k, if only in a hypothetical and/or formal (as in Platonic) sense. As I mentioned to another poster ITT, GrimDark is about tragedy: good is theoretically possible but apparently unattainable in practice. The fact that all sides are "evil" in 40k (debatable as to the non-DE xenos factions btw) does make it any harder to recognize them as evil.

I think the issue for Dark eldar , even in a setting every everyone is mean and evil bastards they pretty much take the cake as Lords of evil. You have to go demons to get any more evil then dark eldars. I mean they live to inflict pain and eat souls. The diet coke of evil they are not.

"Provided they steeped themselves in the most evil and decadent acts"

Page seven, 5th ed DE codex.

Note the inclusion of the word evil. They do evil things. Evil things are inherently immoral and wrong.

Definition of evil: Profoundly immoral and malevolent.

Notice a bit of a connection?

Painbiro wrote:
"Provided they steeped themselves in the most evil and decadent acts"

Page seven, 5th ed DE codex.

Note the inclusion of the word evil. They do evil things. Evil things are inherently immoral and wrong.

Definition of evil: Profoundly immoral and malevolent.

Notice a bit of a connection?

Seven?

Try page five.

"This is a tale of Evil Incarnate."

feth, try page one.

"A Book of Immortal Evils"

In 40k, the Dark Eldar are among the most vile of all beings in the setting, rivaled only by the likes of the Emperor's Children (Though at least they have legion-wide mind the curses please as an excuse) and maybe the C'tan.

Why are we trying to not call the "evil elves in space" of 40k not evil?

Their acts are by all means evil by our standards. I do see how they are doing what they need to survive however. it is quite a delima

Exalbaru wrote:
Their acts are by all means evil by our standards. I do see how they are doing what they need to survive however. it is quite a delima

The issues is as others have said - there are other alternatives - they just don't want to try on them on the whole - they like torturing, raping and the whole range of "evil" acts - some of them get so jaded they can only find amusement by having it done to them as well .............

They dont want redemption or anything similar - they don't want a better future - they are in general apparently more than happy with their own twisted society.

This is a society that promotes sadism, rape, torture, and wanton murder (To a lesser extent, the previous three are more fun) as a virtue, as well as advocating treachery among their own numbers. They have the ability to change, and still survive without Slaanesh eating the gak out of their souls, but actively choose not to, because they find the hedonistic blood orgies more fun.

That it is their culture is irrelevant. The culture itself is evil.

Exalbaru wrote:
Their acts are by all means evil by our standards. I do see how they are doing what they need to survive however. it is quite a delima

If the only way to survive is to be evil (literally no other option in this case) then the altruistic or good thing to do is simply to allow yourself to die. Dilemma solved.

 Lightcavalier wrote:

Exalbaru wrote:
Their acts are by all means evil by our standards. I do see how they are doing what they need to survive however. it is quite a delima

If the only way to survive is to be evil (literally no other option in this case) then the altruistic or good thing to do is simply to allow yourself to die. Dilemma solved.

Except again, it's not the only way for them to survive. There's several options available.
They chose to do it that way, because they like it.

 Hunterindarkness wrote:
Why are we trying to not call the "evil elves in space" of 40k not evil?

Yep.

This thread is pointless. Naming a thread 'Dark Eldar are not Evil' invites argument in the same way the annoying student who sat next to you in undergrad did when always trying to play devil's advocate.

Just as planned, I imagine.

The DE could follow the path of their CE or Exodite cousins that theoretically does not require any death or torture.

Instead they decided to go the homicidal maniac route.


Sounds evil to me. Also, they are responsible for creating slaneesh. That is a pretty bad move as well.

We can give them a pass on attracting Slaanesh's attention "into being." They could hardly have understood that as one of the consequences of their actions. But they were and are certainly evil enough otherwise.

So, how are DE not evil then?

I guess they don't necessarily brush their teeth, or put on their makeup, or ties their shoes in an evil way. They might, you never know.

*looks at thread*

Phil Kelly (in the DE codex) wrote:The Dark Eldar are pure evil in its most sickening and elemental sense.

Meanwhile, the Craftworld Eldar are simply doing all they can to stay alive themselves, they don't have time for being nice to others. I mean, they're the most doomed race in a doomed galaxy, how can you expect them to go around saving others who, compared to them, have it seriously easy?

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:
Actually, the case against the Dark Eldar gets even worse. We know that some Dark Eldar have left Commoraugh and the Webway to be Corsairs and other galactic bastards. So they can, and do, survive outside the Webway, just like regular Eldar.

So not only to they rape and torture and enslave and all sorts of other fun, nasty stuff, but they eat souls because they consciously choose to remain in Commoraugh because they love raping and torturing and soul eating so much that the whole Slaanesh thing is a minor headache, at best.


And you are correct, I should have specified, legitimate accepted school of ethics and morals. Nobody accepts ethical relativism anymore. Nor does ethical egoism fly with anyone civilized. Those aren't really schools of thought, though, so much as behavioral definitions. Only Ayn Rand was stupid enough to believe her nonsense. Oh... wait.

You got my drift with ethical egoism.

If you use "good" or "evil" in the context of a dichotomy then you can't really make a judgement about the DE.

If you use it in a more pragmatic sense then yes the DE are evil.

I never said that the galaxy would'nt be better off with them dead, I just said I don't blame them for wanting to live, I find all Xenos predatory in some form including the Tau, just like humanity is predatory towards the Xenos, I always side with the humans against the foul Xenos whether they be Imperial or Chaos not because of good or evil but because we belong to the same species.

CORSAIR CAPTAIN wrote:
I never said that the galaxy would'nt be better off with them dead, I just said I don't blame them for wanting to live, I find all Xenos predatory in some form including the Tau, just like humanity is predatory towards the Xenos, I always side with the humans against the foul Xenos whether they be Imperial or Chaos not because of good or evil but because we belong to the same species.

So, you're saying all races in 40k are evil and therefore DE aren't evil...
Two wrongs don't make a right. Just because all races are evil doesn't make DE any better. And just because they're trying to survive doesn't make what they're doing good.

And Jefferey Dahmer was just hungry.

Considering they revel in, and indeed feed on, the pain and suffering of others, they are pretty damn evil.

There are Dark Eldar whom attempt to follow a Path as well.

Evil and good are subjective to an individuals morales. To what extent does your morales go, and to what extent do most other peoples go? There is your definition of good and evil. Dark Eldar are evil by my view, Eldar are not, but neither are they good, and the same with the IoM. I also despise people who are overly moralistic.

 LumenPraebeo wrote:
Evil and good are subjective to an individuals morales. To what extent does your morales go, and to what extent do most other peoples go? There is your definition of good and evil. Dark Eldar are evil by my view, Eldar are not, but neither are they good, and the same with the IoM. I also despise people who are overly moralistic.

Dark Eldar are evil by their own definition.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Void__Dragon wrote:
This is a society that promotes sadism, rape, torture, and wanton murder (To a lesser extent, the previous three are more fun) as a virtue, as well as advocating treachery among their own numbers. They have the ability to change, and still survive without Slaanesh eating the gak out of their souls, but actively choose not to, because they find the hedonistic blood orgies more fun.

That it is their culture is irrelevant. The culture itself is evil.

In their defense, hedonistic blood orgies are pretty fething fun, no pun intended.

If the evil alternative was not way cooler nor more fun than the good, it would not be evil.

CORSAIR CAPTAIN wrote:
I never said that the galaxy would'nt be better off with them dead, I just said I don't blame them for wanting to live, I find all Xenos predatory in some form including the Tau, just like humanity is predatory towards the Xenos, I always side with the humans against the foul Xenos whether they be Imperial or Chaos not because of good or evil but because we belong to the same species.

This is a fictional universe.

 Void__Dragon wrote:
If the evil alternative was not way cooler nor more fun than the good, it would not be evil.

If not meant as joke, pffft.